Creationism and Theology

[PloverWing]

Honesty, I’m not sure.

Let’s start with the second.

After thinking about it for a few days, I don't think I can construct a solid argument from Scripture that God does not deliberately set out to deceive us. I can scrounge up a few verses that talk about truth-telling being a virtue, implying that truth-telling is something that's also in God's character, and some verses about God being trustworthy; but we also have verses about God's ways being higher than our ways that could be put forward on the other side.

My belief -- or, at least, my trust -- that God does not deliberately set out to deceive us in the creation comes from two different directions, related to Scripture but not strictly deduced from Scripture.

1) If I adopt "God deliberately deceived us, and wants us to believe (or disbelieve?) the lie" as an axiom, then I just get stuck. Where do I go from there to discover truth? If God has put misleading evidence of old age into the universe, maybe God wants me to believe that the universe is old, even though it isn't; or maybe God wants to teach me to disbelieve all my sense perceptions; but then, what? Should I just smoke some hallucinogenics and stop trying to think in terms of truth at all? I don't think I'm capable of doing that.

2) For me, the creation fits into a bigger picture of the Word of God. The world was created by the Word of God -- so as we look at creation, we learn something about the Creator, much as we learn something about an artist by listening to the artist perform music or watching the artist dance. The Word of God was embodied in Jesus, so we learn something about God by what we see in Jesus. The Word of God came to the prophets, so we learn about God by listening to the prophets' words.

I'll note that #2 isn't an argument, really. Rather, it's a description of how I hear the Word of God in some of its various forms. I see the created world fitting into this framework. I do look for revelations of the Creator in the creation, and for me, this requires taking the creation as a genuinely existing thing, not an illusion.

 

[hedrick]

Numbers 23:19, quoted in Heb 6:18, Titus 1:2. It’s also a major theme in John that the Spirit will lead us into truth.

 

[Jamsie]

After thinking about it for a few days, I don't think I can construct a solid argument from Scripture that God does not deliberately set out to deceive us.

It would seem to me that if Romans 1:20 and Psalm 19 aren't germane, it would seem that much of the Bible is left very open to question.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If God can and will deceive us...then how do you know that anything He says is true? If God knowingly and intentionally deceives us.. we cannot have faith. How do you know that "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" is not a lie?
We are all doomed. Faith is impossible.

 

[Johan_1988]

Hi Johan - I do not believe the 2 Cor. 5:7 is implying that we can not trust our senses. Should we believe those who claim that they saw the resurrected Christ? I think one might reference Heb. 11:1 and consider the passage as concerning spiritual matters not whether we'll walk off a cliff.

As to the possibility of evolution it might be asked why wouldn't a timeless and all powerful God create in the manner he saw fit to do so, by his own counsel? Why is it necessary for an eternal God to be confined to our limited time frame? Why aren't babies born in a day or a week instead of 9 months? Why do people believe that somehow evolution leaves God out of the picture?

Hi, Jamsie.Sorry I should of explained myself better. I do not exclude the use of senses in life when I quoted that scripture. The word walk speaks about how you live your life. Is you life guided on the perception of your senses or your faith. Remember human perception through the senses can be distorted and manipulated. The question is should the understanding our faith be defined by what I perceive through my natural senses or should what I perceive and sense in the natural be defined and understood thought the eyes of my faith?

I say this with sorrow and love in my heart about many modern day Christians.The reason that I'm against the idea is that it is an attempt to reconcile with the world when the bible clearly says:"Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." This TE is clearly an attempt to please non-believers and there is so much of that going on in the church and it grieves the heart of God that his people cannot trust his word and compromise for the sake of pleasing people. God does not have to apologize about what he said and about what his saints wrote.

I was once lead astray by such a different interpretation of scripture and it got worse and worse as I went far away from the true doctrine of Jesus Christ.Because once you don't interpret it literally things keep being added until it looks completely different from the original meaning of scripture. I only realized later that he whom tought me was full of demons and satan himself. Thank God I did not sell my soul.

I would rather be an outcast and sit alone so that what is written may be fullfilled :"Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

 

[Johan_1988]

Yes... I believe that everything God does and says is completely truthful and completely logical.
One must remember that faith is the belief in things not seen. It is not the denial of things that are. Nowhere does God ask us to deny that which is obvious. He may ask us to believe the word while still acknowledging the reality of outward appearances. Jesus told us that when we pray that we are to believe in our heart we have the thing that we asked for and that when we pray. Even then we are perfectly capable of believing something in our heart even when the outward evidence says otherwise. But when we observe the world around us we see things that tell us the earth and the universe is very old... billions of years old. He does not ask us to deny the obvious and proclaim the earth is only a few thousand years old.
Also everything God does and says makes perfect sense. We may not have all the information at this time, but that which we have makes sense and is perfectly logical.

Please see my response to Jamsie. Where I expain what I meant. There is a much better explanation of the age of the earth and the universe that is not in conflict with the bible. It is further down the thread.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

This TE is clearly an attempt to please non-believers and there is so much of that going on in the church and it grieves the heart of God that his people cannot trust his word and compromise for the sake of pleasing people. God does not have to apologize about what he said and about what his saints wrote.

Gonna have to disagree with that one friend. I was YE for 3 decades mainly because I never really studied it or had the time or inclination to deal with the issues. One day I started seeing things in the scripture and in nature that needed explanation. YE simply does not explain reality which is obvious.
The assertion that I and other TE have ulterior motives in for our position is judging our motives... something that you, unless you are God, cannot do. I assure you my motivation for TE is no to appease unbelievers.
Besides, anyone promoting TE or any other "compromise" will tell you that strategy does not work. The world will never align with believers because they hate the gospel, righteousness and the Word... not because of our position on creation. Personally I do not care what the world thinks on these matters. They do not even agree with each other so why bother trying to get on their good side? I want to hold to a logical and real concept of the truth. I am not afraid of accepting or believing what I see. There is a reason for apparent discrepancies. But saying the earth is only 6K years old just does not fit that bill.
Thanks.

 

[Johan_1988]

Gonna have to disagree with that one friend. I was YE for 3 decades mainly because I never really studied it or had the time or inclination to deal with the issues. One day I started seeing things in the scripture and in nature that needed explanation. YE simply does not explain reality which is obvious.
The assertion that I and other TE have ulterior motives in for our position is judging our motives... something that you, unless you are God, cannot do. I assure you my motivation for TE is no to appease unbelievers.
Besides, anyone promoting TE or any other "compromise" will tell you that strategy does not work. The world will never align with believers because they hate the gospel, righteousness and the Word... not because of our position on creation. Personally I do not care what the world thinks on these matters. They do not even agree with each other so why bother trying to get on their good side? I want to hold to a logical and real concept of the truth. I am not afraid of accepting or believing what I see. There is a reason for apparent discrepancies. But saying the earth is only 6K years old just does not fit that bill.
Thanks.

Hi, I sorry if I'm rather hard hitting in my reply about your motives, but perhaps this is a better explanation for you.

We do not know the history before Genesis:
There is a gap in the book of Genesis:

"Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
GAP
"Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

The thing is ,what caused the earth to be without form and void? If we presume that God created it perfect.One clue is that the earth was covered with water and dry land and water were separated:

"Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so."

An earth covered with water suggests a flood like the flood in Genesis chapter 6. Another scripture comes to mind:

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Obviously the earth was in a state of judgement in Genesis chapter 2. So all ancient fossil records including the dinosaurs can be accredited to this unknown history of the earth. A world that was and not known to us and God then recreated it in the 6 day creation.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I happen to agree. Held this position for my whole Christian life. Dakes and Larkin have pretty good presentations of the teaching. And I think TE fits in with this. Of course they present that the 6 days was not creation per se... rather a re-creation. Hence the "re-replenish" the earth in verse 26.
Thanks for the clarification.
I do not push TE... I just research it and hold to it. I have wanted to write a book on the subject but have not got a nod from the Lord. Not ready yet.
Peace

Hi, I sorry if I'm rather hard hitting in my reply about your motives, but perhaps this is a better explanation for you.

We do not know the history before Genesis:
There is a gap in the book of Genesis:

"Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
GAP
"Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

The thing is ,what caused the earth to be without form and void? If we presume that God created it perfect.One clue is that the earth was covered with water and dry land and water were separated:

"Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so."

An earth covered with water suggests a flood like the flood in Genesis chapter 6. Another scripture comes to mind:

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Obviously the earth was in a state of judgement in Genesis chapter 2. So all ancient fossil records including the dinosaurs can be accredited to this unknown history of the earth. A world that was and not known to us and God then recreated it in the 6 day creation.

 

[Johan_1988]

I happen to agree. Held this position for my whole Christian life. Dakes and Larkin have pretty good presentations of the teaching. And I think TE fits in with this. Of course they present that the 6 days was not creation per se... rather a re-creation. Hence the "re-replenish" the earth in verse 26.
Thanks for the clarification.
I do not push TE... I just research it and hold to it. I have wanted to write a book on the subject but have not got a nod from the Lord. Not ready yet.
Peace

Thank you. We can finally agree on this. I told you to read my other post with this. So sorry I presumed you did not agree with it. I got this one from my pastor whom led me to Christ. He is dead now, but this this thing he tought me from his Dakes annotated study Bible is still with me. The earth could have been re-created several times, we can never know. I have made peace with this explanation and stick to it.

God dwells in eternity and he created time, space and matter. He is therefore not bound by these things and that's why I would stick to a instantaneous creation of life and all things.

I hope and pray and find what you're looking for, the right expanation. One thing I am for sure ,there will be a final re-creation at the end of time. A new heavens and a new earth.
2Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Thank you and God bless you

 

[Jamsie]

Hi, Jamsie.Sorry I should of explained myself better. I do not exclude the use of senses in life when I quoted that scripture. The word walk speaks about how you live your life. Is you life guided on the perception of your senses or your faith. Remember human perception through the senses can be distorted and manipulated. The question is should the understanding our faith be defined by what I perceive through my natural senses or should what I perceive and sense in the natural be defined and understood thought the eyes of my faith?

Hi Johan, I appreciate your response and another time I will give you a more considered response...hay season here and I'm exhausted.

I would simply suggest that Faith is spiritual, and our senses are physical, and so somewhat apples and oranges. We walk by Faith as it relates to our heart, behavior, conduct, trials, good times as well as difficult times, etc. as we trust in God. It might be best explained as metaphysical whereas our sense perceptions are material, though of course at times they overlap...natural revelation.

 

[-57]

But saying the earth is only 6K years old just does not fit that bill.

Major problem with old earth and Theistic Evolutionism is it pretty much does away with original sin.
The TE's have no biblical explanation for our sin nature.

 

[-57]

Obviously the earth was in a state of judgement in Genesis chapter 2. So all ancient fossil records including the dinosaurs can be accredited to this unknown history of the earth. A world that was and not known to us and God then recreated it in the 6 day creation.

The fossil record including the dinosaurs ....as well as the geological column was a result of the world wide flood that destroyed the earth during Noahs days. That was the state of judgement.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Major problem with old earth and Theistic Evolutionism is it pretty much does away with original sin.
The TE's have no biblical explanation for our sin nature.

I am TE, and I see the events in the Eden Park as having taken place as described. Most TE believers agree with this. So yes, I agree with original sin.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The fossil record including the dinosaurs ....as well as the geological column was a result of the world wide flood that destroyed the earth during Noahs days. That was the state of judgement.

Thanks
If your faith is dependent on believing in YE, then I will not attempt to dissuade you. I want you to believe!

 

[-57]

I am TE, and I see the events in the Eden Park as having taken place as described. Most TE believers agree with this. So yes, I agree with original sin.

Do you also believe Adam was formed from the dust then Eve from Adams rib? Most TE don't and was wondering where you stand on this issue.

 

[-57]

Thanks
If your faith is dependent on believing in YE, then I will not attempt to dissuade you. I want you to believe!

My faith was given to me by God. Events such as the world wide flood and the science of the geological record support my faith as well as the Bible.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Do you also believe Adam was formed from the dust then Eve from Adams rib? Most TE don't and was wondering where you stand on this issue.

Yes. That is the case.
As most TE believe, this was a separate event from Genesis 1.
In Genesis 1, male and female are made in the image of Elohim.
In Genesis 2 a man is created from the dust of the earth, and then a women was made from the rib of Adam.
These were two different beings, howbeit they are both referred to as men. I believe the men and women of Gen 1 came into being via the same process as all land animals. They may have been the beings that we are finding in fossils and caves. They were the apex of evolution on the earth. It was then, in verse 26 of Gen 1 that Elohim "made" these "men and women" into their image. I interpret this to mean:

"let us take the men and women the the earth had brought forth (in verse 24) and make them into our image. Let us make them cognizant and able to grow in intelligence. Let us cause then to evolve beyond their present state to a higher state where they will rule the earth."
​

They did this, but they did not impart to these men the breathe of God. These men were not able to commune with God or have fellowship. The were evolved beings that could not commune with God. They did not have to fall as Adam and Eve did, as they did not possess a nature that could fall. They may not have even had spirits. Perhaps when Elohim made them into their image they imparted a human spirit to them. Not the same as Adam. So the men and women of Gen 1 are different from the man made in Genesis 2. God breathed life into the man He personally made from the dust in Gen 2, and that breathe was passed to the women He made from the man's rib. He named the man Adam, and Adam named the women Eve because she would pass this life of God to all her children.
Of course there are problems with this interpretation of the events. But that is true with every interpretation of the Genesis account. Virtually every group had a different view. Pick this apart if you like.. I like that because it causes me to pray and think how things may have occurred. There are some things He has chosen not to reveal to us. We may not know this side of heaven. No need to get dogmatic about it on my part.
Better than watching the history channel and TLC.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

My faith was given to me by God. Events such as the world wide flood and the science of the geological record support my faith as well as the Bible.

Fantastic!
Mine too! So too with every thinking, faithful believer. We may read it different, but we end up in the same place. We know there are 100s of opinions but only one true account. the 99 of us will be joyful to discover how close we were. We all think we are that one true account, lest we would change. Who wants to hold a false account?

 

[hedrick]

Major problem with old earth and Theistic Evolutionism is it pretty much does away with original sin.
The TE's have no biblical explanation for our sin nature.

Yes and no. It's pretty obvious that we inherently learn by trial and error. So it's obvious that we are going to make mistakes, which in moral issues wold be sin.

It's not our moral imperfection that's the issue, but rather the fact that there were never perfect human beings. It's really the unfallen state that can't ever have actually been present. The fallen one is all too visible. We can still regard the unfallen state as God's plan for us, which we can experience through Christ.

Of course the traditional idea of original sin doesn't really fit with Gen 2 and 3 anyway. Calling Adam and Eve morally perfect before the fall makes no sense at all. They sinned the first time they had a choice to make. They were just like we are. This story was really about how death entered the world, not how sin entered the world. That how Paul uses it. (That's not historically true either, but at least let's get the intended meaning of the story right.)

Of course I reject the idea that we start with theology and reject things about the world when they aren't consistent with our theology. That's going about things backwards. It's just as likely to lead to bad theology as bad science.