Now wadaminute...

[OldWiseGuy]

No, it really isn't. If you want a primary example of how lack of vaccination can effect a population just take a look at what happened in Madagascar during their measles outbreak. Over a thousand people died from an otherwise preventable disease.

If anti-vaxxers had their way, the same thing could be happening in your country.

I'm talking about America. The developing world is a different matter. Also why wasn't the population of Madagascar vaccinated? Is there an anti-vaxx movement there, or something cultural?

Measles rarely kills in the US -- but when it does, this is how it will happen - CNN

 

[pitabread]

I'm talking about America. The developing world is a different matter.

Measles rarely kills in the US -- but when it does, this is how it will happen - CNN

The point is that if anti-vaxxers had their way America would wind up like the developing world when it comes to disease outbreaks. This is why proper science education is important to combo the various woo ideas anti-science types try to promote.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The point is that if anti-vaxxers had their way America would wind up like the developing world when it comes to disease outbreaks. This is why proper science education is important to combo the various woo ideas anti-science types try to promote.

But it isn't the anti-vaxxers that cause the outbreak in Madagascar, and those who eschewed vaccination are fairly isolated from the main populations. The article cites "lack of resources" and "poor nutrition". If we were concerned about measles and other diseases shouldn't we have been more involved in countries like Madagascar?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/madagascar-measles-epidemic-1.5097610

 

[JacobKStarkey]

It's the headline grabbing "soup-of-the-day" issue, and near the bottom of the list of health problems.

Measles is anything but the above if anti-vax continues and the disease gets out of hand.

 

[pitabread]

But it isn't the anti-vaxxers that cause the outbreak in Madagascar, and those who eschewed vaccination are fairly isolated from the main populations. The article cites "lack of resources" and "poor nutrition". If we were concerned about measles and other diseases shouldn't we have been more involved in countries like Madagascar?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/madagascar-measles-epidemic-1.5097610

You're missing the point. I'm using Madagascar as an example of the effects that a disease can have on an undervaccinated population.

I also don't think you read the article you linked, because it states this quite clearly:

Just 58 per cent percent of people on Madagascar's main island have been vaccinated against measles, a major factor in the outbreak's spread. With measles one of the most infectious diseases, immunization rates need to be 90 to 95 per cent or higher to prevent outbreaks.
​

The point is that anti-vaxxers want to put other countries in the same sort of situation by perpetuating non-vaccination.

I'm not sure why you're trying to argue this. You're not an anti-vaxxer are you?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You're missing the point. I'm using Madagascar as an example of the effects that a disease can have on an undervaccinated population.

I also don't think you read the article you linked, because it states this quite clearly:

Just 58 per cent percent of people on Madagascar's main island have been vaccinated against measles, a major factor in the outbreak's spread. With measles one of the most infectious diseases, immunization rates need to be 90 to 95 per cent or higher to prevent outbreaks.
​

The point is that anti-vaxxers want to put other countries in the same sort of situation by perpetuating non-vaccination.

I'm not sure why you're trying to argue this. You're not an anti-vaxxer are you?

I read the whole article. Resistance to vaccination isn't their problem. It's lack of money to buy vaccines, and a malnourished population. They have little immune resistance to any disease. That's why Madagascar is a poor example of the "anti-vaxx" argument.

And no, I'm not against vaccinations. I'm also not aware of a global anti-vaxx movement.

The Anti-Vaxxer Movement Isn’t Really Growing

 

[pitabread]

That's why Madagascar is a poor example of the "anti-vaxx" argument.

You're still completely missing the point. I'm not saying anti-vaxxers are specifically to blame for the measles outbreak in Madagascar. I'm using it as an example of what can happen to an undervaccinated population, which is also clearly stated in the article you linked.

Again, why are you arguing about this? Are you an anti-vaxxer?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You're still completely missing the point. I'm not saying anti-vaxxers are specifically to blame for the measles outbreak in Madagascar. I'm using it as an example of what can happen to an undervaccinated population, which is also clearly stated in the article you linked.

Again, why are you arguing about this? Are you an anti-vaxxer?

Your argument is moot as measles vaccinations are increasing globally. It will take decades for effective vaccinations take place globally. The present hysteria is unwarranted.

There are bigger health issues that need to be addressed.

The Anti-Vaxxer Movement Isn’t Really Growing

 

[pitabread]

Your argument is moot as measles vaccinations are increasing globally. It will take decades for effective vaccinations take place globally. The present hysteria is unwarranted.

There are bigger health issues that need to be addressed.

The Anti-Vaxxer Movement Isn’t Really Growing

Anti-vaxx is admittedly self-correcting. The recent outbreaks in America have reinforced the necessity of proper vaccination.

At any rate, my original point was simply about education and advocating for proper medical treatments.

Btw, you never answered the question: are you anti-vaxx?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Anti-vaxx is admittedly self-correcting. The recent outbreaks in America have reinforced the necessity of proper vaccination.

At any rate, my original point was simply about education and advocating for proper medical treatments.

Btw, you never answered the question: are you anti-vaxx?

I can agree with that.

I answered that in post #26.

 

[pitabread]

I answered that in post #26.

Oops, I missed that. My apologies.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Oops, I missed that. My apologies.

I'm not against vaccinations, and I've got the needle marks to prove it.

 

[jayem]

...aren't most vaccines the same thing?

For the record, here’s another point not yet mentioned: The role of vaccines is almost exclusively preventative. No currently available vaccine, to my knowledge, will reliably treat an illness, once it becomes symptomatic. Homeopathy purports to be therapeutic. It attempts to treat illness with ultra-dilute solutions of various herbs and other compounds. (I’ve read that some homeopathic practitioners claim the more dilute the medication, the more effective it is. An utterly bizarre and illogical notion.)

There is research being done on therapeutic vaccines. Especially in oncology. The idea of stimulating the immune system to kill cancer cells has been around a long time. There are immunotherapeutic drugs which work that way. But using vaccines is still experimental.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...I’ve read that some homeopathic practitioners claim the more dilute the medication, the more effective it is. An utterly bizarre and illogical notion.

That is fairly standard homeopathic theory, but it's all bizarre - the 'Law of Similars', or 'like cures like' generally interpreted as being whatever produces similar symptoms can heal the ailment; and the dilution potentiation is supposedly only effective if the remedy is 'succussed' (vigorously shaken or, for the religiously-minded, bashed on a bible) between dilutions; and the requirement for 'provings', i.e. testing on healthy subjects until symptoms appear...

 

[loveofourlord]

I'm talking about America. The developing world is a different matter. Also why wasn't the population of Madagascar vaccinated? Is there an anti-vaxx movement there, or something cultural?

Measles rarely kills in the US -- but when it does, this is how it will happen - CNN

actually measel death rates are higher then originally thought, as measels seems to reset the bodies immune system, meaning anything you caught before you get measels is forgotten increasing your odds of dying from other stuff.

 

[loveofourlord]

The reason homeopathy isn't simular to vaccines, to give you a idea, even if like cures like was real, the dilution of some of their amounts is equivalent of taking a drop of say measels, putting it in a water the size of...and not hyperbolic, the universe, mixing it up, and then taking a single drop randomly from there and saying that now cures measels.

 

[dad]

The point is that if anti-vaxxers had their way America would wind up like the developing world when it comes to disease outbreaks. This is why proper science education is important to combo the various woo ideas anti-science types try to promote.

Proper education would include pointing out that mandatory medical procedures by wicked governments may not necessarily be for our good. A bit like having a fox guard a chicken coup. Governments are known for secret experiments on populations such as MKULTRA. Governments kill millions of beautiful babies in horrible ways. Governments have done a lot to merit losing trust. So it is not just some purist ideal picture of beneficial vaccines we are talking about here.

 

[pitabread]

oh nevermind

 

[driewerf]

Better science education is something that educators and scientists have been fighting for for decades. Unfortunately, it's various anti-science movements (e.g. anti-vaxxers, creationists, climate change denialists, etc) that keep fighting it.

They could still teach good health couldn't they? There's nothing controversial about that.

Nurse to patient's relative: "Your relative is at deaths door, but the doctor is trying to pull him through."

Even that is controversial. The tobacco industry has set up complete campaigns profiling itself as safe or healthy, manipulated research results, including results about "second hand smoking", targetting children etc.
A few links:
Tobacco industry manipulation of research.
“The Doctors’ Choice Is America’s Choice”: The Physician in US Cigarette Advertisements, 1930–1953

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470496/bin/Gardner_F1_FPO.jpg

 

[tas8831]

Perhaps we should teach the 'science' of health instead of hiding it away from the public. Of course sickness is more profitable generally than is health, so there's that.

You should check out the amount of money hauled in by Big Supplements, Big Organic, and Big Spas...