Did the event of 1948 Israel fulfill any Bible prophecy?

[OldWiseGuy]

However, this post doesn't really address any points I made. So do you believe Paul is incorrect with having Hosea 1:10 and 2:23, a prophecy about the northern kingdom, being fulfilled with the inclusion of the gentiles with the jews in the vessels of mercy? Do you agree the exiled northern kingdom became as gentiles?

Romans 9 ends in some confusing (hard to be understood) statements by Paul.

 

[claninja]

The Assyrian captivity only lasted 390 years

How did the Assyrian captivity last for 390 years? Israel was invaded by Assyria around 722 BC, and Assyrian was conquered by Babylon in aroun 612 BC.

after which the peoples of the Northern Kingdom scattered all over the place

I agree that the Assyrian exile scattered northern kingdom to the nations.

The poorest were spared the captivity and remained in Samaria, living as second class citizens. Others returned to the region including some to Judea

Correct, some did stay in Samaria and some did move to Judah. We have scripture to support this.

2 Chronicles 30:11 Nevertheless, some from Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem.

2 Chronciles 30:18 A large number of the people—many from Ephraim, Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun—had not purified themselves, yet they ate the Passover, contrary to what was written. But Hezekiah interceded for them, saying, “May the LORD, who is good, provide atonement for everyone

2 chronicles 30:25-26 Then the whole assembly of Judah rejoiced along with the priests and Levites and all the assembly that had come from Israel, including the foreigners who had come from Israel and those who lived in Judah. So there was great rejoicing in Jerusalem, for nothing like this had happened since the days of Solomon son of David king of Israel

Others migrated north into Europe.

Definitely possible, but we have no definite way of knowing.

They were scattered to the four winds, as prophecied.

I agree

Most lost their tribal distinction as history suggests

I agree, even more, they became not God's people and God was no longer their God.

Hosea 1:9 9And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi,c for you are not My people, and I am not your God.d

But God knew who and where they were, and "not a grain (ethnic seed) would fall to earth".

This assumes your interpretation is correct. How does a sieve work? It separates large and smaller objects.

So God promised to shake the northern kingdom among the nations as grain is shaken in a sieve, but NOT a pebble would reach the ground. Jesus states that grain MUST fall to the earth in order to bear fruit.

John 12:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

Thus, I would argue that another plausible interpretation would be that the pebble that does not fall to the earth, as stated in vs 9 is equal to the the sinners that will die by the sword in vs 10.

Amos 9:9 For surely I will give the command, and I will shake the house of Israel
among all the nations, as grain is sifted in a sieve, but not a pebble will reach the ground.
Amos 9:10 All the sinners among My people will die by the sword, all those who say,‘Disaster will never draw near or confront us

Another plausible interpretation is that the chaff and debris are the ones that fall through the sift, while the grain remains in the sifter. Thus, the disobedient are sent among the nations, while the remnant remains in Israel.

 

[jgr]

Revelation 6 and 7 suggest that many would be 'sealed' during the end time by being martyred.

There's no suggestion that any of those sealed would be martyred.

These would complete the ranks of the 144,000 Israelites. They are killed for the testimony of Christ and the new testament, not the OT. Those in chapter 6 that 'cried from beneath the alter' were likely the OT prophets who were martyred.

No evidence for that.

 

[claninja]

Romans 9 ends in some confusing (hard to be understood) statements by Paul.

So how did I take romans 9:24-26 out of context exactly?

 

[nolidad]

I am convinced that Yeshua was talking about the Temple, not the whole house of Israel. The religious leadership rejected the Lord so now the Lord's House is now their house as the Lord is departing it. His comments on this was given at the Temple area. And to make the point, in Matthew 24:1 Yeshua departs from the Temple area after delivering these comments

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

He was talking more than the Temple.

 

[nolidad]

Zero.

Wrong- you and I may not recognize them but god certainly knows and that is what matters. Besides, anone with a name like Levine, levinstein, Leventhal, etc are Levites!

 

[claninja]

Wrong- you and I may not recognize them but god certainly knows and that is what matters. Besides, anone with a name like Levine, levinstein, Leventhal, etc are Levites!

Under the old covenant, proof, in the form of genealogical records, was needed to show that someone descended from Levi in order to be included in the priesthood. If proof could not be provided, the Urim and Thummin had to first be consulted.

Ezra 2:59-63 The following were those who came up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsha, Cherub, Addan, and Immer, though they could not prove their fathers’ houses or their descent, whether they belonged to Israel: the sons of Delaiah, the sons of Tobiah, and the sons of Nekoda, 652. Also, of the sons of the priests: the sons of Habaiah, the sons of Hakkoz, and the sons of Barzillai (who had taken a wife from the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called by their name). These sought their registration among those enrolled in the genealogies, but they were not found there, and so they were excluded from the priesthood as unclean. The governor told them that they were not to partake of the most holy food, until there should be a priest to consult Urim and Thummim.

Does anyone presently have their genealogical records proving they descended from Levi? Do we have the Urim and Thummim presently to consult? Does the old covenant still even exist?

 

[keras]

So how did I take romans 9:24-26 out of context exactly?

Those verses are plainly about the House of Israel, who have accepted Christianity; THEY will be called the sons of the Living God. The Jews are mentioned in verse 27..only a remnant of them will survive.

 

[keras]

Under the old covenant, proof, in the form of genealogical records, was needed to show that someone descended from Levi in order to be included in the priesthood.

We Christians, under the New Covenant, will be the Lord's priests and co-rulers. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:10

 

[claninja]

Those verses are plainly about the House of Israel, who have accepted Christianity; THEY will be called the sons of the Living God.

I agree, In post #813 I plainly stated that hosea 1:10 and hosea 2:23 are about the northern kingdom of Israel.

However, notice, Paul has hosea 1:10 and hosea 2:23 fulfilled with the inclusion of the GENTILES with the Jews in the vessels of mercy. NOTICE, Paul does not say northern kingdom, or house of Israel, or house of Joseph, or even Ephraim. He states GENTILES.

Romans 9:24-26 including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,”h and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”I

Which substantiates that the exiled northern kingdom became gentiles when God divorced and scattered them. Thus, by God including the gentiles, of whom some descended from the exiled northern kingdom, he fulfills the promise stated in hosea.

 

[claninja]

We Christians, under the New Covenant, will be the Lord's priests and co-rulers. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:10

We currently are.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

 

[jgr]

Those verses are plainly about the House of Israel, who have accepted Christianity; THEY will be called the sons of the Living God. The Jews are mentioned in verse 27..only a remnant of them will survive.

It's plainly about the Gentiles.

Romans 9
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

 

[keras]

It's plainly about the Gentiles.

But you fail to realize that Paul calls the House of Israel, 'Gentiles' as they have lost their Israelite identity.
They were the people Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24 and who are the nation, [people group] who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

 

[jgr]

But you fail to realize that Paul calls the House of Israel, 'Gentiles' as they have lost their Israelite identity.

Then why doesn't he also refer to "Israel" as "Gentiles" here:

Romans 9
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

How did the Assyrian captivity last for 390 years? Israel was invaded by Assyria around 722 BC, and Assyrian was conquered by Babylon in aroun 612 BC.

The fleeing Assyrians took their captives with them. The punishment for Israel was to last for 390 day/years, according to Ezekiel 4, therefore I assume the captivity would last that long. After that those captives that remained were free to scatter, and many went north.

So God promised to shake the northern kingdom among the nations as grain is shaken in a sieve, but NOT a pebble would reach the ground. Jesus states that grain MUST fall to the earth in order to bear fruit.

Sieving was the final separation of impurities from the grain. Pebbles (a mistranslation) were removed along with dirt and chaff. Thus God ensured the ethnic, if not the spiritual, purity of the scattered tribes. Regards falling to earth as seed, it was not God's intention that scattered Israel bear spiritual fruit at that time. They did later however, with the fullness of the Birthright.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

But you fail to realize that Paul calls the House of Israel, 'Gentiles' as they have lost their Israelite identity.
They were the people Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24 and who are the nation, [people group] who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

This is one reason Paul is confusing. He interchanges the terms Judah with Israel, and gentiles with tribes or nations.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So how did I take romans 9:24-26 out of context exactly?

You were close. Recall that Jesus stated, "I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". He then began ministering to those living in or near Samaria. Those he encountered were descendants of Jacob and still practiced the religion of Jeroboams day. The Jews also knew who they were. So they were never true Gentiles although history views them as such.

This is the scripture that fits the event most closely.

Matthew 4:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

 

[jgr]

Thus God ensured the ethnic, if not the spiritual, purity of the scattered tribes.

Since Israel was multiethnic from its beginning, there was never any "ethnic purity".

Regards falling to earth as seed, it was not God's intention that scattered Israel bear spiritual fruit at that time. They did later however, with the fullness of the Birthright.

Israel never bore any significant spiritual fruit. On the contrary, it was repeatedly led into idolatry, and the abandonment and rejection of its God.

 

[parousia70]

Wrong- you and I may not recognize them but god certainly knows and that is what matters.

Not according to Ezra.
But maybe your contention is that the scriptural mandate contained therein is worthless and can just be ignored?

Besides, anone with a name like Levine, levinstein, Leventhal, etc are Levites!

So if I get my last name changed to Levenstein legally then I become a genetic Levite?

 

[keras]

Then why doesn't he also refer to "Israel" as "Gentiles" here:

Romans 9
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Paul is referring to the Jews in those 2 verses.
Part of the problem in correctly identifying who Paul is talking about, is the translators bias or their pre-conceived notion of who they think Paul means.

Knowing God's Plan for those people He originally chose, helps to understand it all.