I feel that in reading the Scripture, I cannot deny the theme of Limited Atonement. But the verse that struck me the most is Matthew 11:23:
"For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day"
If God knew the positive outcome that could have came from miracles being performed in Sodom, that the city could have been actually spared, why didn't He send Jesus or a prophet there back in the OT days to perform miracles?
This is different from Abraham refusing to send Lazarus back to earth knowing the futile outcome, that the rich man's brothers would not believe anyway (Luke 16:31).
differences between various reformed churches:
Presbyterian
Reformed Baptists
Reformed Churches of America, etc.
Early on for me,
'Lemke's 9 Marks' was a useful document in differentiating 'Presbyterian' to 'Reformed Baptists', especially being a Presbyterian with very argumentative and opinionated Baptist friends, obsessed with TULIP 5-point Calvinism etc (which is wrong IMO, extremely dogmatic, and historically wrong). Westminster Creedalism is the same.
See, Dr. Steve W. Lemke Provost & Professor of Philosophy New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary,
What is a Baptist? Nine Marks that separate Baptists from Presbyterians
And, Steve W. Lemke, Mark Rathel, R. L. Hatchet, and Ken Gore,
The Journal for Baptist Theology & Ministry 5, no. 2 (2008)
Some quotes:
- "Baptists and Presbyterians are both products of the Protestant Reformation." (p10)
- "Baptists arose from the Radical Reformation" (p10)
- "Presbyterians arose from the Magisterial Reformation" (p10)
- "Calvinism could be the most explosive and divisive issue facing us in the near future." (p13)
- "First of all, Calvinism is a valid expression of the Christian faith and of the Baptist tradition." (p13)
- "there is not just one Calvinism, but many Calvinisms" (p13)
- Calvinism is a counterbalance to Arminianist tendencies: "It has offered a healthy counterbalance and a useful corrective to the somewhat Arminian tendencies in the revivalism and the church growth movement within the SBC." (p13)
- "Calvinism has also reminded us that evangelism is not accomplished as the result of a magic formula from some church growth guru. No revival takes place by human means alone; it is God that gives the increase (1 Cor. 3:6)." (p13)
While I agree with Limited Atonement about God's election, predestination, etc, it's a "contradistinction to the theory of universal atonement" (
https://www.theopedia.com/limited-atonement)... i.e.
reactionary theology... tit for tat...
I find that human labels and frameworks are not necessarily helpful in the long run. In a sentence of 10 words spoken by a Protestant, 5 words will be true and 5 will be false, and 10 will be missing. Worse for Catholics. But Scripture is pure, unbroken, unfailing, and endures forever.
Baptists are like rebels sects -- One of things I miss about being a Baptist is the
close knit community, without hierarchy, obsession with elders, formal courts, liturgy, creeds and doctrines, committees, rule books, etc. Everyone exudes a sense of innocence and open-mindedness, which is really endearing. But there's also lots of gaps in their theology and behaviour which can become very problematic, personally and socially. However, Baptists tend to be stunted in their growth, stuck at the conversion / baptism years, and most I' know are quite agnostic / atheistic in their thoughts about God.
Presbyterians are similar but conformists -- The aforementioned establishment and bureaucracy acts like crutches to assist one's
maturity, and this was it's appeal to me. The world of systematic theology and the Westminster Confession is a strong foundation to grow and mature in the faith, intellectually and academically more invigorating. The Presbyterian
model is a nicely packaged format, liturgically, order of worship, doctrinally, etc, making visits to other churches instantly
feeling like home, an immediate sense of belonging. The disciplinary system prevents and rectifies public sins, scandals, etc. And a strong cultural and religious network offers a sense of purpose and heritage. But this can also be very pretentious and superficial, where congregants can be empty, vain, and legalistic, people who are proud of their system and know how to
say all the words, but may not really care about you or anyone but finding their pew every Sunday.
On a personal note, I notice it's harder talking to my Presbyterian friends about big picture concepts because they're stuck reciting details in the WCF, unable to think beyond that framework. They're also very defensive and hate being challenged or embarrassed. It's a little easier talking to Baptist friends who are more open-minded to suggestions, other interpretations etc, but their knowledge tends to be very far behind (in the Calvinist school), often unable to grasp the most basic doctrines, e.g. sovereignty of God and often have poorer levels of Greek and Hebrew (usually no Hebrew), so conversations about OT is limited, and most discussions are highly subjective and shallow. They are however receptive, which helps. -- I've found these trends occur at all levels, from new converts to the oldest elders.
The other thing is that Presbyterians welcome anybody and everybody for public worship and you don't have to be a Presbyterian or Calvinist to gain membership. But to become an elder (governing the church) you must be a full WCF subscribing Calvinist, with certain exemptions per church. Baptists however,
discriminate and typically won't allow anyone who hasn't been
full-immersion baptised into membership or into the pulpit to preach, regardless what you have to say or do for them. This I cannot accept and I also find that Baptists can be very classist and prejudiced in other areas also, social status, wealth, material belongings, and whether you drink or smoke. It's ignorant, bigoted, un-Christ-like, and I don't like that.
With my Presbyterian friends, a minister will invite me for a coffee in the city at his favourite cafe, or I can invite my brothers for a nice craft beer, and there would be no judgement. A maturer and more 'adult' group. Occasionally, we have large sit down dinners, several courses, etc. I could even smoke a pipe or a cigar if I wanted, though haven't since it's rude (non-smoking laws and culture in Sydney). And the ladies do lady stuff. But with my Baptists friends, I'm hesitant to say or do anything that might cause offence, for fear of rejection, which can happen easily if they don't like you... They're also overly pre-occupied and obsessed with 'evangelising' and 'baptising' new converts, it's what excites and drives them, and validates their own sense of faith. Thus, it's easy to feel neglected or unappreciated in such environments, failing to learn more, grow, be challenged, intellectually, behaviourally, etc, simply because it's a shallower environment where everyone's fixated on the 'new person' or the 'new family', which is super hypocritical and artificial IMO.
A quote to think about:
"We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good edification... Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one another as Christ received us to the glory of God." (Rom. 15:1-3, 5-7)
Blessings