• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Horrors of UK's Single Payer System

dogs4thewin

dog lover
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2012
32,703
6,387
Georgia U.S. State
✟1,088,584.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
If life expectancy is a reliable indicator of how well a health service is performing, then I would say that countries such as Canada, the UK, Australia, Scandinavia, and many other countries that implement universal healthcare are performing very well.
Depends I seem to have read somewhere that the UK citizen are less likely to get cancer, but more likely to parish if they do Moreover, life expectercy also varies by such things as family history and how one chooses to care for him or herself. There are also times where having something once makes it more likely to have it again ( even if caught early. Usually, this means that that person have to have more preventive care and no matter what they do the risk will still be there.
 
Upvote 0

dogs4thewin

dog lover
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2012
32,703
6,387
Georgia U.S. State
✟1,088,584.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Socialism seems to have been good enough for the United States Armed Forces.
Except that often they have to seek additional treatment for certain things ( particularly if they file for regular disability).
 
Upvote 0

ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
8,962
5,551
New Jersey (NYC Metro)
✟205,252.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
If you go into bankrupt ( especially chapter seven your medical bills are gone. Moreover if the person that incurred the bill passes ( whether or not it is caused by the medical condition for which the bills were incurred the heirs are not liable for the bills. Same goes for ANY debt the deceased incurred alone a car, a house, a credit care personal loan does not matter. IF the debt is SOLELY in the deceased name then the heirs pretty much get it wiped out.
The heirs are not liable but the heirs will not inherit if the estate of the deceased can be applied towards medical debts owed. The executor of the will would have the deceased's taxes done and debts answered for. If the estate can pay for any debts it must. After that, if there is money left over then the heirs would inherit that leftover. Same goes for any debt - the estate has to pay it before heirs can get anything.
 
Upvote 0

rambot

Senior Member
Apr 13, 2006
28,203
15,917
Up your nose....wid a rubbah hose.
✟446,428.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
As a Canadian, I laugh at the "die waiting" silliness. There are CERTAINLy examples of improper care or failure of sufficient care. But I'd wager they are LESS common than in the US system and they are not also burdenned with cost if they don't die.


Everyone I know who has been diagnosed with cancer or other life threatenning diseases receives care quickly (from 24hrs to 1.5 weeks was the longest).
 
Upvote 0

dogs4thewin

dog lover
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2012
32,703
6,387
Georgia U.S. State
✟1,088,584.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
The heirs are not liable but the heirs will not inherit if the estate of the deceased can be applied towards medical debts owed. The executor of the will would have the deceased's taxes done and debts answered for. If the estate can pay for any debts it must. After that, if there is money left over then the heirs would inherit that leftover. Same goes for any debt - the estate has to pay it before heirs can get anything.
I just noted that when my father passed mom told the hospital and the bills went away. Only bills she still had were bills that were in both of their name ( passed after paying off the house so like all we had was a car and credit cards.
 
Upvote 0

dogs4thewin

dog lover
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2012
32,703
6,387
Georgia U.S. State
✟1,088,584.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
As a Canadian, I laugh at the "die waiting" silliness. There are CERTAINLy examples of improper care or failure of sufficient care. But I'd wager they are LESS common than in the US system and they are not also burdenned with cost if they don't die.


Everyone I know who has been diagnosed with cancer or other life threatenning diseases receives care quickly (from 24hrs to 1.5 weeks was the longest).
Cancer treatments are usually done over time it is not like someone gets cancer and it goes away after one or two treatments.
 
Upvote 0

Vylo

Stick with the King!
Aug 3, 2003
24,768
7,823
44
New Jersey
✟212,869.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Every single nation that outperforms the US in healthcare uses a single payer, or universal healthcare system, and do so at less then 60% of our cost. The majority of our extra cost comes from overhead and profits by insurance companies, that do nothing to improve the healthcare for our nation. Medical tourism by Americans leaving the country for care is 10 times that for people coming here to seek treatment. You can have a knee replacement done in Belgium, with flight and hospital stay included, for 1/10th of what the surgery alone will cost here.

We are the wealthiest nation, but yet rank 37th on healthcare upon last check:

https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

Arguing against a public healthcare system is madness, the discussions should be about what form and what pitfalls we can avoid looking at other systems that have been used.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Every single nation that outperforms the US in healthcare uses a single payer, or universal healthcare system, and do so at less then 60% of our cost. The majority of our extra cost comes from overhead and profits by insurance companies, that do nothing to improve the healthcare for our nation. Medical tourism by Americans leaving the country for care is 10 times that for people coming here to seek treatment. You can have a knee replacement done in Belgium, with flight and hospital stay included, for 1/10th of what the surgery alone will cost here.

We are the wealthiest nation, but yet rank 37th on healthcare upon last check:

https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

Arguing against a public healthcare system is madness, the discussions should be about what form and what pitfalls we can avoid looking at other systems that have been used.
Yeah, but **SOCIALISM**
 
Upvote 0

ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
8,962
5,551
New Jersey (NYC Metro)
✟205,252.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I just noted that when my father passed mom told the hospital and the bills went away. Only bills she still had were bills that were in both of their name ( passed after paying off the house so like all we had was a car and credit cards.
Something had to happen that made the bills "go away". They don't just "go away" on their own. It may have been covered by Medicare and settled with them directly.

When my father died, I helped my mom (who was the executor) to settle his bills. Indeed, most of his medical bills were covered by Medicare and his supplemental. They "went away"...after we ensured the insurance companies paid them and we paid the leftover amount from his estate.

Years later when my mom died I was the executor and the first thing I settled were her bills. Again, as when she was still alive, most of it was covered by Medicare and some by her supplemental. However, I still paid off the leftover amounts. This was also necessary for my brother, a CPA, to settle her taxes and other finances. Things with money don't just go away.

After her finances were settled we got our inheritance. I asked my brother what would have happened if she didn't have the money and he said that in that case they would take whatever they can, even liquidating her assets, and the leftover would have to be written off, but that we as her heirs would get nothing if it all had to go to the creditors.

I don't know if you've been through it yourself, but I went through it helping my mom and then for my mom. When someone dies, their estate goes into probate. The executor basically reports all the debts and all the deceased's estate (monetary value of all the money and other valuables). The executor proceeds to settle everything with creditors and then probate is closed and whatever money is left is paid to the heirs. Nothing just "goes away".
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Pommer
Upvote 0

Tanj

Redefined comfortable middle class
Mar 31, 2017
7,682
8,318
60
Australia
✟284,806.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Here is where American Healthcare is at.
Ponder this, MASH... (Mobile American Surgical Hospital) The enormous pop-up clinic trying to bridge America’s health divide | Amy Woolard

As an aside, from the article:
A 2015 survey conducted by the Federal Reserve Board to determine what practical effects, if any, the economic recovery was having on families, found that 46% of Americans did not have enough money on hand to cover an unexpected $400 expense.

Good grief.
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,468
Tarnaveni
✟841,659.00
Country
Romania
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
While the American people are being bombarded with pro "Medicare for All" propaganda from exuberant democrats and buying into it (until they realize the price tag will double their taxes), the potential disaster of such an expensive system is being glossed over. We need only look across the Pond to see what problems can arise. Here are some actual data to show that Single Payer isn't always rosier and in fact can be worse than what the US currently has. Further, the US has a very different demographic and US heath insurers and patients foot the bill for most of the R&D of Big Pharma....something those in the UK fail to recognize and appreciate.

U.K.'s Healthcare Horror Stories Ought To Curb Dems' Enthusiasm For Single-Payer

The United Kingdom's National Health Service, which celebrated its 70th anniversary on July 5, is imploding.

Vacancies for doctor and nurse positions have reached all-time highs. Patients are facing
interminable waits for care as a result. This August, a record number of Britons languished more than 12 hours in emergency rooms. In July, the share of cancer patients who waited more than two months to receive treatment soared.

The NHS has struggled to fully staff its hospitals and clinics since its inception in 1948. But today, the shortages are growing worse. 9% of physician posts are vacant. That's a shortfall of nearly
11,500 doctors.

The NHS is also short
42,000 nurses. In the second quarter alone, nurse vacancies increased by 17%. Meanwhile, in the United States, nearly all states will have a surplus of nurses by 2030.

The shortage of providers has resulted in longer wait times for patients. In May,
4.3 million people in the United Kingdom were on waiting lists for surgery, a 10-year high. Adjusting for population, that would be like having everyone in the state of Florida on waiting lists. Roughly 3,500 British patients have been on hospital waiting lists for more than a year.

More than
one in five British cancer patients waits longer than two months to begin treatment after receiving a referral from a general practitioner. In Scotland, fewer than 80% of patients receive needed diagnostic tests -- endoscopies, MRIs, CT, scans and the like -- within three months.

These delays are deadly. An analysis that covered just half of England's hospitals found that almost
30,000 patients died in the past year while waiting for treatment -- an increase of 57% compared to 2013.

In some cases, the NHS has refused to provide treatment at all. In June, NHS England said that it would discontinue coverage of
17 procedures, including tonsillectomies and knee arthroscopies for osteoarthritis patients.

Even when patients receive treatment, the quality of care is poor. Patients in British hospitals are four times more likely to die than in U.S. hospitals, according to an analysis of outcomes from 2,000 similar surgeries conducted by researchers from University College London and Columbia University in New York. Among the more severely ill patients, the disparity was worse; the sickest Brits were
seven times more likely to die.

Of course, there are those that may have different outcomes and experiences on both sides. However, we're not talking about individual cases but rather averages which the only data that matters when looking at the issue. Personally, I requested an MRI from my doc 2 1/2 years ago and 5 days later was in the latest open MRI machine having my scan. Virtually no wait time, just fitting it into my schedule. I'll take that vs. a 3+ month wait. BTW, dealing with Medicare is no picnic. It's a bureaucratic nightmare in many cases while also being fraught with mismanagement, waste and fraud.

Are there flaws and problems in the US system? Yes, and no one denies this. But a radical shift to a Medicare for All plan would not solve them.

Lol this is genuinely ridiculous. Waiting 12 hours in A&E is a 'horror story'? Bear in mind that people go to A&E for all kinds of reasons, as in the UK people don't have to wait until they have a full-on, life threatening condition to go, out of the fear of not being able to pay for treatment.
Since the economic crisis reached it's peak in Europe the NHS's budget has been getting tighter and tighter and tighter, and it is tough for NHS staff working with reduced resources. To call it a 'horror story' however is beyond absurd to the nth degree. Far, far, far, more US citizens suffer needlessly from chronic health issues they could easily get treatment for in the UK, because their insurance doesn't cover that treatment, or because they can't afford the additional payments. This kind of scaremongering article really is the most transparent nonsense.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Kentonio
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,468
Tarnaveni
✟841,659.00
Country
Romania
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You probably don't know this, but there are programs for the "less well-off" including Medicaid in the US. Any person can walk into any hospital in the US and must be treated regardless of ability to pay. The homeless person who (intentionally in many cases now) gets hit by a car, gets the same ambulance ride to the hospital, same care, same food, same drugs, etc. as an insured.

Yes for basic treatment. I've heard the facilities are pretty limited and only the most essential treatment is provided.
 
Upvote 0

Anthony2019

Pax et bonum!
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2019
5,970
10,921
Cannock Chase, Staffordshire, United Kingdom
✟855,169.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
As a nurse who spent some time working in an NHS hospital, I have experienced the reality of what happens which is somewhat different to what is read in the media.

I have treated many patients, many of whom have been seriously ill or critically injured and I thank God that the NHS has been there for them at their time of desperate need. Many of them would not have had the means to pay for their care privately or pay for expensive insurance premiums. In the hospital I worked in, everyone got full medical treatment as an inpatient regardless of their financial status and the majority were extremely complimentary about the standard of care.

As a Christian, I see healthcare as something which should benefit all rather than simply those who can afford it. I would find it morally repugnant for a company or organisation to ask a sick or injured person to prove their eligibility for care.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
30,256
17,181
✟545,630.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
If you go into bankrupt ( especially chapter seven your medical bills are gone. Moreover if the person that incurred the bill passes ( whether or not it is caused by the medical condition for which the bills were incurred the heirs are not liable for the bills. Same goes for ANY debt the deceased incurred alone a car, a house, a credit care personal loan does not matter. IF the debt is SOLELY in the deceased name then the heirs pretty much get it wiped out.
Forcing people into bankruptcy because of a serious medical illness seems like a perfectly reasonable way to run a health care system.
 
Upvote 0

dogs4thewin

dog lover
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2012
32,703
6,387
Georgia U.S. State
✟1,088,584.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Something had to happen that made the bills "go away". They don't just "go away" on their own. It may have been covered by Medicare and settled with them directly.

When my father died, I helped my mom (who was the executor) to settle his bills. Indeed, most of his medical bills were covered by Medicare and his supplemental. They "went away"...after we ensured the insurance companies paid them and we paid the leftover amount from his estate.

Years later when my mom died I was the executor and the first thing I settled were her bills. Again, as when she was still alive, most of it was covered by Medicare and some by her supplemental. However, I still paid off the leftover amounts. This was also necessary for my brother, a CPA, to settle her taxes and other finances. Things with money don't just go away.

After her finances were settled we got our inheritance. I asked my brother what would have happened if she didn't have the money and he said that in that case they would take whatever they can, even liquidating her assets, and the leftover would have to be written off, but that we as her heirs would get nothing if it all had to go to the creditors.

I don't know if you've been through it yourself, but I went through it helping my mom and then for my mom. When someone dies, their estate goes into probate. The executor basically reports all the debts and all the deceased's estate (monetary value of all the money and other valuables). The executor proceeds to settle everything with creditors and then probate is closed and whatever money is left is paid to the heirs. Nothing just "goes away".
that was mom that sent the hospital the piece of paper and other people the piece of paper. Other than medical bills though everything else was in her name. Which was mostly a couple of cars because there was no house payment left to pay that ended the July before his death. Largely as a result of putting DOWN what most people barrow after selling two houses.
 
Upvote 0

cow451

Standing with Ukraine.
Site Supporter
May 29, 2012
41,108
24,132
Hot and Humid
✟1,120,396.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0

variant

Happy Cat
Jun 14, 2005
23,790
6,591
✟315,332.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Arguing against a public healthcare system is madness, the discussions should be about what form and what pitfalls we can avoid looking at other systems that have been used.

We also already have a public healthcare system that is very popular in medicare, it just only covers some of the population.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: ArmenianJohn
Upvote 0

DaisyDay

I Did Nothing Wrong!! ~~Team Deep State
Jan 7, 2003
41,735
19,787
Finger Lakes
✟306,393.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Forcing people into bankruptcy because of a serious medical illness seems like a perfectly reasonable way to run a health care system.
What do you want - your house or your health?
 
  • Haha
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0