WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS 1ST CENTURY JEWISH WARS ISRAEL, JUDEA AND JERUSALEM

[LittleLambofJesus]

Discuss....

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:6
Ye shall be being about yet to be hearing battles and tidings of battles<4171>.
Be seeing no! be being frightened<2360> for is binding to be becoming,
but not yet is the end<5056>.

Mark 13:7
Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and tidings of battles<4171>,
be seeing no! to be being frightened<2360>, for is binding to be becoming,
but not yet the end.

Luke 21:9
Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>,
no be being dismayed<4422> for is binding these to be becoming first
but not immediately<2112> the end.

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

TRACKING THE FIRST JEWISH REVOLT FROM A
MILITARY POINT OF VIEW
POV: Administrative | Factional | Military | Theological

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
=========================================
Revelation 18:19 and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried, lamenting, weeping and mourning, saying,
"Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships<4143> in the sea, out of Her preciousness<5094>,for to one hour was She was desolated<2049>.
===================

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All 3 verses have #4171 and the word I have in bold is an exact form of #4171 which are only used in these 3 verses.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

4171. polemos from pelomai (to bustle); warfare (literally or figuratively; a single encounter or a series):--battle, fight, war.
Strong's Number G4171 matches the Greek πόλεμος (polemos), which occurs 18 times in 16 verses

Matthew 24:
6 Ye shall be being about yet to be hearing battles<4171> and hearings of battles<4171>. Be seeing no! be being frightened<2360>
for is binding to be becoming, but not yet is the end/τέλος<5056>.

Mark 13:
7 Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles<4171> and hearings of battles<4171>, be seeing no! to be being frightened<2360>, for is binding to be becoming, but not yet the end.

Luke 21:
9 Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles<4171> and tumults<181>, no be being dismayed<4422> for is binding these to be becoming first but not immediately<2112> the end.

James 4:1
From-whence battles<4171> and from-whence fightings among ye?
not thence — out of your passions, that are as soldiers in your members?

#4171 is used 8 times in Revelation.

The exact form of #4171 used in the Revelation verses is used in only 1 verse outside of Revelation

1 Corinthians 14:8
for if also an uncertain sound a trumpet may give, who shall prepare himself for battle/ πόλεμον<4171>?

Revelation 16:14
for they are spirits of demons, doing signs — which go forth unto the kings of the whole being-homed<3625>,
to be together-leading them in the battle/πόλεμον<4171> of the great day of the God, the Almighty

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

189. akoe ak-o-ay' from 191; hearing (the act, the sense or the thing heard):--audience, ear, fame, which ye heard, hearing, preached, report, rumor.

Matthew 24:6
Ye shall be being about yet to be hearing<189> battles and hearings<189> of battles.
Be seeing no! be being frightened
for is binding to be becoming, but not yet is the end.

Mark 13:7
Whenever yet ye should be hearing<189> battles and hearings<189> of battles, be seeing no! to be being frightened, for is binding to be becoming, but not yet the end.

Luke uses "tulmults" here, which is used only this 1 verse in the Gospels:

181. akatastasia ak-at-as-tah-see'-ah from 182; instability, i.e. disorder:--commotion, confusion, tumult.

Luke 21:9
Whenever yet ye should be hearings<189> battles and tumults<181>, no be being dismayed
for is binding these to be becoming first but not immediately<2112> the end.

It is also used by Paul in this verse:

1 Corinthians 14:33
for not is the God is of tumult<181>, but of peace,
as in all the assemblies of the Saints.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matthew and Mark us the word #2360 these verses:

2360. throeo thro-eh'-o from threomai to wail; to clamor, i.e. (by implication) to frighten:--trouble.

Matthew 24:6
Ye shall be being about yet to be hearing<189> battles and hearings<189> of battles.
Be seeing no! be being troubled<2360>...............

Mark 13:7
Whenever yet ye should be hearing<189> battles and hearings<189> of battles, be seeing no! to be being troubled<2360>,................

#2360 used in 1 other verse

2 Thessalonians 2:2
that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled<2360>, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us,
as that is present<1764> the day of Lord/Christ is present

Luke uses the word #4422> in this verse

4422. ptoeo pto-eh'-o probably akin to the alternate of 4098 (through the idea of causing to fall) or to 4072 (through that of causing to fly away); to scare:--frighten.

Luke 21:9
Whenever yet ye should be hearings<189> battles and tumults<181>, no be being dismayed.<4422>............

#4422 occurs in only 1 other verse in the NT, and that is when Jesus appeared to His Disciples after He was raised from the dead.

Luke 24:37
36 and as they are speaking these things, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith to them, 'Peace -- to you!'
37 and being amazed, and becoming affrighted<4422>, they were thinking themselves to see a spirit.
38 see My hands and My feet, that I am He; handle Me and see,
because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me having.'

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The OT mentions reports of battles.
There is one in particular in shown in Daniel 11

8052 shmuw`ah
something heard, i.e. an announcement:--bruit, doctrine, fame, mentioned, news, report, rumor, tidings.
Genesis 1:1 (NASB)
Strong's Number H8052 matches the Hebrew שְׁמוּעָה (shĕmuw`ah),
which occurs 28 times in 24 verses

Didn't the Roman army arrive from the North of Judea in 70AD?

Jeremiah 10:22
The sound of a report/rumor!<8052>Behold, it comes—
A great commotion out of the land of the north—
To make the cities of Judah/Judea A desolation, a haunt of jackals.

Daniel 11:44
“But rumors/reports<8052> from the East and from the North will disturb him,
and he will go forth with great wrath to destroy and [fn]annihilate many.

Both the Olivet Discourse and Revelation mention "battles/battle"

191. akouo
to hear (in various senses):--give (in the) audience (of), come (to the ears), (shall) hear(-er, -ken), be noised, be reported, understand.

Matthew 24:6
Ye shall be being about yet to be a hearing/report of battles<πολέμους<4171> and hearings/reports of battles<πολέμων<4171>. Be seeing no! be being frightened<2360>
for is binding to be becoming, but not yet is the end.

Mark 13:7
Whenever yet ye should be hearing/report battles<ἀκούσητε<4171> and hearings/reports of battles<πολέμων<4171>,
be seeing no! to be being frightened<2360>, for is binding to be becoming, but not yet the end.

Luke 21:9
Whenever yet ye should be hearing/report battles<πολέμου<4171> and tumults<181>, no be being dismayed<4422>
for is binding these to be becoming first but not immediately<2112> the end.

#4171 is used 8 times in Revelation.

The exact form of #4171 used in the Revelation verse is used in only 1 verse outside of Revelation

1 Corinthians 14:8
for if also an uncertain sound a trumpet may give,
who shall prepare himself for battle<πόλεμον>4171>?

Revelation 16:14
for they are spirits of demons, doing signs — which go forth unto the kings of the whole being-homed<3625>,
to be together-leading them in the battle<πόλεμον>4171> of the great day of the God, the Almighty

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It appears the rebellion and wars was started with the killing of James by Herod, which pleased the corrupt murderous Judean rulers [this was prophecied by Jesus in the Olivet Disourse and Revelation 2:10]

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:6
Ye shall be being about yet to be hearing battles and tidings of battles<4171>....
but not yet is the end<5056>.
Luke 21:9
Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>.....
but not immediately the end.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

CAST OF CHARACTERS:
Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

A.D. 62 - JERUSALEM
Church Historian Suggests James' Death the "Final Straw" Which Broke the Yoke
Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Final Days

Hegesippus - "James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles.. Because of his exceeding great justice he was called the Just.. Coming therefore in a body to James (the Scribes and Pharisees) said, 'We entreat thee, restrain the people; for they are gone astray in regard to Jesus, as if he were the Christ.. Do thou therefore persuade the multitude not to be led astray concerning Jesus. For the whole people, and all of us also, have confidence in thee.. And he answered with a loud voice,' Why do ye ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man ? He himself sitteth in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.' And when many were fully convinced and gloried in the testimony of James, and said, 'Hosanna to the Son of David,' these same Scribes and Pharisees said again to one another,' We have done badly in supplying such testimony to Jesus.. So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, 'Let us stone James the Just.' And thus he suffered martyrdom. And they buried him on the spot, by the temple, and his monument still remains by the temple. He became a true witness, both to Jews and Greeks, that Jesus is the Christ. And immediately Vespasian besieged them."

1Now about that time, King Herod stretched out his hands to oppress some of the assembly. 2He killed James, the brother of John, with the sword. 3When he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to seize Peter also. This was during the days of unleavened bread. 4When he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of four soldiers each to guard him, intending to bring him out to the people after the Passover.

Acts 12:2 He had James, the brother of John, put to death with the sword.

Acts 12:
1 Now about that time, King Herod stretched out his hands to oppress some of the assembly.
2 He killed James, the brother of John, with the sword.
3 When he saw that it pleased the Judeans, he proceeded to seize Peter also.
This was during the days of unleavened bread.
4 When he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of four soldiers each to guard him, intending to bring him out to the people after the Passover.

5 Peter therefore was kept in the prison, but constant prayer was made by the assembly to God for him.

Matthew 23:
32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.
33 You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna?

34 Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify; and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute/pursue from city to city

Luke 21:12
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons<5438>.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
=================
Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10

No yet one thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering/emotioning. Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>, that ye may be being tried.
And ye shall be having Tribulation<2347> of ten days,

========================================
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 2. -
James, the son of Zebedee, or James the Elder, to whom, with his brother John, our Lord gave the surname of Boanerges (which is a corruption of בְנֵי דֶגֶשׁ), sons of thunder. Nothing is recorded of him in the Acts but his presence in the upper room at Jerusalem after the Ascension (Acts 1:13), and this his martyrdom, which was the fulfillment of our Lord's prediction in Matthew 20:23.
His being singled out by Herod for death in company with Peter is rather an indication of his zeal and activity in the Lord's service, though we know nothing of his work.

Eusebius relates an anecdote of his martyrdom, extracted from the lost work of Clement of Alexandria, called the Ὑποτυτώσεις (or in Latin Adumbrationes), which Clement professed to have received by tradition from his predecessors, to the effect that the informer who accused James was so struck with his constancy in confessing Christ before the judge, that he came forward and confessed himself a Christian too.
The two were then led off to execution together; and on the way the informer asked James's forgiveness.

After a moment's hesitation, James said to him, "Peace be unto thee," and kissed him. They were then both beheaded ('Eccl. Hist.,' 2. 9.). As Clement flourished about A.D. , the tradition need not have passed through more than three persons. It has been thought strange that Luke relates the death of a chief apostle with such brevity.

But it did not bear on the main object of his work. Lightfoot ('Works,' vol. 8. p. 282, etc.) mentions a fanciful story related by Rabauus Maurus, that about this time the apostles composed the Apostles' Creed, each contributing one clause, and that the clause contributed by James the brother of John was, "And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:6
Ye shall be being about yet to be hearing battles and tidings of battles<4171>.
Be seeing no! be being frightened<2360> for is binding to be becoming,
but not yet is the end<5056>.

Mark 13:7
Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and tidings of battles<4171>,
be seeing no! to be being frightened<2360>, for is binding to be becoming,
but not yet the end.

Luke 21:9
Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles< and tumults<181>,
no be being dismayed<4422> for is binding these to be becoming first
but not immediately<2112> the end.

And that leads us right back to the "parousia" in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us, when? shall these be, and what?
the sign of Thy parousia, and the full-End<5055> of the Age.
====================
1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> Has drawn nigh<1448>
be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has drawn nigh<1448>

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Interesting word used in Luke 21:9

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Mark 13:7
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>
================================
Used in only 5 verses of the NT.......3 of those by Paul, traveling companion and physician of Luke, and 1 by James...........

181. akatastasia from 182;
instability, i.e. disorder:--commotion, confusion, tumult.
G181 ἀκαταστασία (akatastasia) occurs 5 times in 5 verses

YLT)
Luk 21:9
and when ye may hear of wars and uprisings, be not terrified, for it behoveth these things to happen first, but the end is not immediately.'

1Co 14:33
for God is not a God of tumult, but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.
2Co 6:5
in stripes, in imprisonments, in insurrections, in labours, in watchings, in fastings,
2Co 12:20
for I fear lest, having come, not such as I wish I may find you, and I -- I may be found by you such as ye do not wish, lest there be strifes, envyings, wraths, revelries, evil-speakings, whisperings, puffings up, insurrections,

Jas 3:16
for where zeal and rivalry are, there is insurrection and every evil matter;
=======================================
Luke 21:9 Commentaries:

Pulpit Commentary
Verses 9, 10. - Wars and commotions... nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. Josephus the Jewish, and Tacitus the Roman, historian - the former in his 'Jewish Wars,' and the latter in his 'Annals' - describe the period which immediately followed the Crucifixion as full of wars, crimes, violences, earthquakes. "It was a time," says Tacitus, "rich in disasters, horrible with battles, torn with seditions, savage even in peace itself."
======================
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
9. wars and commotions] The best comment on the primary fulfilment of this Discourse is the Jewish War of Josephus, and the Annals and History of Tacitus (Ann. xii. 38, xv. 22, xvi. 13), whose narrative is full of earthquakes, wars, crimes, violences and pollutions, and who describes the period which he is narrating as one which was “rich in calamities, horrible with battles, rent with seditions, savage even in peace itself.”

The main difficulties of our Lord’s Prophecy vanish when we bear in mind (i) that Prophecy is like a landscape in which time and space are subordinated to eternal relations, and in which events look like hills seen chain behind chain which to the distant spectator appear as one; and (ii) that in the necessarily condensed and varying reports of the Evangelists, sometimes the primary fulfilment (which is shewn most decisively and irrefragably by Luke 21:32 to be the Fall of Jerusalem), sometimes the ultimate fulfilment is predominant. The Fall of Jerusalem was the Close of that Aeon and a symbol of the Final End (telos). This appears most clearly in the report of St Luke.

commotions] akatastasias, conditions of instability and rottenness, the opposite to peace. 1 Corinthians 14:33; James 3:16. Such commotions were the massacre of 20,000 Jews in their fight with the Gentiles at Caesarea; the assassinations or suicides of Nero, Galba, Otho, and Vitellius; the civil wars, &c.

be not terrified] The Greek word is the exact equivalent of our English word ‘be not scared,’ Luke 24:37; 1 Peter 3:6; Proverbs 3:25.

but the end is not by and by] Rather, but not immediately is the end. For ‘by and by’ see Luke 17:7; Matthew 13:21; Mark 6:25. The words are most important as a warning against the same eschatological excitement which St Paul discourages in 2 Thess. (“The end is not yet,” Matthew 24:6; Mark 13:7.) The things which ‘must first come to pass’ before the final end were (1) physical disturbances—which so often synchronise with historic crises, as Niebuhr has observed; (2) persecutions; (3) apostasy; (4) wide evangelisation; (5) universal troubles of war, &c. They were the “beginning of birth-throes” (Matthew 24:8); what the Jews called the “birth-pangs of the Messiah.”
=====================
Bengel's Gnomen
Luke 21:9. Πολέμους, wars) amongst equals.—ἀκαταστασίας, [Engl. Vers. ‘commotions’] seditions) of inferiors against superiors, and intestine divisions, whereby the κατάστασις, established constitution, of states is swept away. These are the preludes of further wars. It is in this chapter especially that Luke presents to us the words of the Lord in language varied from that in which Matthew and Mark record them: Luke 21:15 [“I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay;” comp. with Mark 13:11, “Take no thought before-hand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate; but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.” Comp. also, Matthew 10:19], 20, etc.[221] So also, instead of wars and rumours of wars in Matthew [Luke 24:6] and Mark [Luke 13:7], Luke says here, wars and seditions.

[221] “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Comp. with Mark 13:14, “When ye shall see the, abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel, standing where it ought not” (in Matthew 24:15, “stand in the holy place”); the phrases in Mark being altered from their Jewish form by Luke, into one more intelligible to the Gentiles for whom he wrote.—E. and T.
=========================
...............................................

 

[Rigatoni]

I moved the discussion regarding "wars and rumors of wars" here where it'll continue:

A rare instance where @TribulationSigns and I agree.

If one does not wish for assertions to be challenged and held up for Correction and reproof with scripture, then the "safe house" is where it belongs.


But for fun I'll post some relative news relating to the fulfillment of Prophesy in our very day:

'They shall beat their swords into plowshares' and guns into tools | Camarillo Acorn

Why are you resorting to strawmen arguments and attempting to belittle those who believe something different than you, if your purpose is indeed to correct and reproof? Show me one instance in Scripture where God commands you to resort to fallacies, or where Jesus used logical fallacies or belittlement in order to correct and reproof other believers.

 

[Rigatoni]

The apostles' generation saw wars and rumors of wars too... how near did it mean for them when they saw the signs? Was Jesus telling them the signs of wars and rumors of wars that they would see were a sign that the end of the age was near for them?

And what do you mean by near?

The same thing the apostles meant when they said it was near to them?
or do you mean something different?

Did they also see false prophets claiming to be the "Messiah" and deceiving many? Or famines and earthquakes in diverse places? They didn't have the internet back then, so how would they have known about the signs to the extent like we do today? Why is it also impossible for these prophecies to have multiple fulfillments throughout history - i.e. a shadow of what was to come and an ultimate fulfillment later on?

"Near" as in "approaching". The frequency and intensity of the signs show just how near the end is, like birth pangs. The signs of His return and the end of the age have been increasing in frequency and intensity lately like we've never seen before. Incurable diseases spreading, fires, floods, earthquakes, signs in the heavens (i.e. first ever images of a black hole or a galaxy that resembles the crown of thorns), many nations at war or making threats of war (as we're on the verge of a third world war that would include nukes and would be unprecedented in devastation), the rise of false prophets and false messiahs leading people astray (i.e. Raymond Elwood Lear claiming to be the Jewish messiah), narcissism and mental illness running rampant, etc.

 

[parousia70]

Did they also see false prophets claiming to be the "Messiah" and deceiving many?

Yes.
Several of them:
Dositheus the Samaritan (Origen: Contra Celsum, VI, ii; Hom. xxv in Lucam; Contra Celsum, I, lvii), Simon Magus (Acts 8:9-24) who was deified in Rome, Theudas (Acts 5:36-37), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Herod Agrippa (Acts 12:20-23), Menahem (Josephus: War of the Jews; 2.433-450). Under the government of Felix, deceivers rose up daily in Judea and persuaded the people to follow them into the wilderness, assuring them that they should behold conspicuous signs and wonders performed by the Almighty. (Felix, from time to time, apprehended many and put them to death.) During this period (52-58 AD) arose a celebrated Egyptian deceiver (Acts 21:38), who collected thirty-thousand followers and persuaded them to accompany him to the Mount of Olives, telling them that from there they would see the walls of Jerusalem fall down at his command as a prelude to the capture of the Roman garrison and their obtaining the sovereignty of the city (Josephus: War of the Jews, 2.259-263; Antiquities of the Jews 20.169-171). Such messiahs and magicians were often as powerful in the display of miracles as were the apostles (see: Simon of Samaria in Acts 8:9-11; Apollonius of Tyana). Partial list of first-century false messiahs: Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BC); Simon of Peraea (4 BC); Athronges, the shepherd (4 BC); Judas, the Galilean (6 AD); the Samaritan prophet (36 AD); King Herod Agrippa (44 AD); Theudas (? AD); the Egyptian prophet (52-58 AD); anonymous prophet (59 AD); Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 AD); John of Gischala (67-70 AD); Vespasian (67 AD); Simon bar Giora (69-70 AD). Related link: Livius.org - Messiah Overview.

Or famines and earthquakes in diverse places?

Yes, again, Several:

Acts 11:28 records a worldwide famine. Josephus reports famines in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). There were accounts of infanticide and cannibalism (as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57) -- Jewish women cooked and ate their babies (Josephus; Wars 6:3:3-4; Wars 5:1:4). Concerning earthquakes, Seneca writes: "How often have cities in Asia, how often in Achaia, been laid low by a single shock of earthquake! How many towns in Smyrna, how many in Macedonia, have been swallowed up! How often has Paphos collapsed! Not infrequently are tidings brought to us of the utter destruction of entire cities" (Seneca Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales, trans. Richard M. Gummere, vol. 2, 437). Josephus says of Jerusalem, "the city was besieged on both sides...there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming" (Wars, 4:4:5).

Why is it also impossible for these prophecies to have multiple fulfillments throughout history - i.e. a shadow of what was to come and an ultimate fulfillment later on?

Then When is the terminus?
How can we know if a particular event is the fulfillment of anything if we take your position that there can always be a FUTURE, Greater fulfillment?

Are you expecting another Virgin Birth? another Crucifixion, another 3rd Day Resurrection of Jesus?
Was Calvary a mere "type" of some future greater sacrifice for our sins yet to be accomplished by Jesus?

If your claim is that Multiple fulfillments is the RULE, then we should definitely be expecting another Virgin Birth, Cross Sacrifice and 3rd day rising of the Messiah. Perhaps 2 or 3 or even 20 more times, since your claim is there can always be a future, GREATER fulfillment of all prophesy.

"Near" as in "approaching". The frequency and intensity of the signs show just how near the end is, like birth pangs. The signs of His return and the end of the age have been increasing in frequency and intensity lately like we've never seen before.

Do you have any Links to evidence of this claim of increasing activity??

I know from the USGS that Earthquake frequency is not increasing, but remains stable. Which makes sense as Earthquakes are nowhere prophesied to "increase in frequency".

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

The end did not come in 70m AD. We still have a ways to go before the Lord returns.

 

[parousia70]

We still have a ways to go before the Lord returns.

So you are saying it can't happen "at any moment" then? since "we still have a ways to go"?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The end did not come in 70m AD. We still have a ways too before the Lord returns.

That's a pretty safe bet............every generation since the 1st century reads these same verses.........

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us! when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4931-5055> of the Age?

"THE TIME IS NIGH AT HAND" AND "COMING IN SWIFTNESS" REVELATION PROPHECY

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>
be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord is nigh<1448>

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the Time/Season is nigh<1451>.
Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
That the Time/Season is nigh<1451>

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

That's a pretty safe bet............every generation since the 1st century reads these same verses.........

...and it is closer to that omega point today than it was in the first century.

 

[parousia70]

...and it is closer to that omega point today than it was in the first century.

At least 2000 years closer.
And if it’s another 2000 years yet, we will the be yet another generation who got it wrong...
But at least were as committed as all the generations before and after who wrongly thought theirs was the “terminal generation.”

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Handmaid for Jesus said: ↑
The end did not come in 70m AD. We still have a ways too before the Lord returns.

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
That's a pretty safe bet............every generation since the 1st century reads these same verses....
Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?

Luke 21:
20 Whenever yet ye may be seeing Jerusalem being compassed by armies,
then be ye knowing that nigh<1448> the desolating of Her.
31 - So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh<1451>

James 5:8
be ye patient!, also stand-fast the hearts of ye, that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared<1448>

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>
be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written,
That the Time/Season is nigh<1451>.

...and it is closer to that omega point today than it was in the first century.

At least 2000 years closer.
And if it’s another 2000 years yet, we will the be yet another generation who got it wrong...
But at least were as committed as all the generations before and after who wrongly thought theirs was the “terminal generation.”

That OC generation of the Temple and Priesthood did pass away.

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath?


Matthew 24:34
Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be passing-away the generation, this-one, till ever all these may be becoming.

amhn legw umin ou mh parelqh h genea auth ewV an panta tauta genhtai

Mark 13:30
Amen I am saying to ye not no may be passing-away the generation, this-one unto of which any these all may be becoming

Luke 21:32
“Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be passing-away the generation, this-one, till ever all things may be becoming.

The true enemies of Christ and the Cross:

Acts 5:17 Rising yet the Chief-Priest and all those together to-him-- being a sect of the Sadducees they are filled of-jealousy/boiling

3. The Sadducees | Bible.org

The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead or the immortality of the soul, since these doctrines are not mentioned in the law of Moses. Neither did they believe in heaven or hell. They interpreted the law literally and tended to support strict justice as opposed to mercy toward the offender. Since Jesus supported all these things opposed by the Sadducees, Jesus did not fit within the Sadducean movement.

Being closely associated with the Temple, the Sadducees disappeared from history when the Temple was destroyed in 70. The Essenes' center was Qumran; they are the movement that made the Dead Sea Scrolls. The gospels say nothing about the Essenes.
Unlike the Sadducees of the Pharisees, the Essenes did not try to influence the whole people. Jesus certainly knew of the Essenes, but seems not to have interacted with them much, if at all.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Only 2 members have responded so far.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes.
Several of them:
Dositheus the Samaritan (Origen: Contra Celsum, VI, ii; Hom. xxv in Lucam; Contra Celsum, I, lvii), Simon Magus (Acts 8:9-24) who was deified in Rome, Theudas (Acts 5:36-37), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Herod Agrippa (Acts 12:20-23), Menahem (Josephus: War of the Jews; 2.433-450). Under the government of Felix, deceivers rose up daily in Judea and persuaded the people to follow them into the wilderness, assuring them that they should behold conspicuous signs and wonders performed by the Almighty. (Felix, from time to time, apprehended many and put them to death.) During this period (52-58 AD) arose a celebrated Egyptian deceiver (Acts 21:38), who collected thirty-thousand followers and persuaded them to accompany him to the Mount of Olives, telling them that from there they would see the walls of Jerusalem fall down at his command as a prelude to the capture of the Roman garrison and their obtaining the sovereignty of the city (Josephus: War of the Jews, 2.259-263; Antiquities of the Jews 20.169-171). Such messiahs and magicians were often as powerful in the display of miracles as were the apostles (see: Simon of Samaria in Acts 8:9-11; Apollonius of Tyana). Partial list of first-century false messiahs: Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BC); Simon of Peraea (4 BC); Athronges, the shepherd (4 BC); Judas, the Galilean (6 AD); the Samaritan prophet (36 AD); King Herod Agrippa (44 AD); Theudas (? AD); the Egyptian prophet (52-58 AD); anonymous prophet (59 AD); Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 AD); John of Gischala (67-70 AD); Vespasian (67 AD); Simon bar Giora (69-70 AD). Related link: Livius.org - Messiah Overview.



Yes, again, Several:

Acts 11:28 records a worldwide famine. Josephus reports famines in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). There were accounts of infanticide and cannibalism (as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57) -- Jewish women cooked and ate their babies (Josephus; Wars 6:3:3-4; Wars 5:1:4). Concerning earthquakes, Seneca writes: "How often have cities in Asia, how often in Achaia, been laid low by a single shock of earthquake! How many towns in Smyrna, how many in Macedonia, have been swallowed up! How often has Paphos collapsed! Not infrequently are tidings brought to us of the utter destruction of entire cities" (Seneca Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales, trans. Richard M. Gummere, vol. 2, 437). Josephus says of Jerusalem, "the city was besieged on both sides...there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming" (Wars, 4:4:5).



Then When is the terminus?
How can we know if a particular event is the fulfillment of anything if we take your position that there can always be a FUTURE, Greater fulfillment?

Are you expecting another Virgin Birth? another Crucifixion, another 3rd Day Resurrection of Jesus?
Was Calvary a mere "type" of some future greater sacrifice for our sins yet to be accomplished by Jesus?

If your claim is that Multiple fulfillments is the RULE, then we should definitely be expecting another Virgin Birth, Cross Sacrifice and 3rd day rising of the Messiah. Perhaps 2 or 3 or even 20 more times, since your claim is there can always be a future, GREATER fulfillment of all prophesy.



Do you have any Links to evidence of this claim of increasing activity??

I know from the USGS that Earthquake frequency is not increasing, but remains stable. Which makes sense as Earthquakes are nowhere prophesied to "increase in frequency".

Thanks for sharing that very informative post.

 

[rakovsky]

LittleLamb of Jesus,
This thread has good information connecting the wars of 66-73 AD with the Olivet Discourse and Revelation. I can see that the events line up.
Other than the argument that the destruction was due to Christ's death, and rejection of Christ, can I please ask what other reasons do you think God would have had for the rebels' defeat? It puzzles me. I made a thread asking about it here:
Why would the Lord want the defeat of Japha and other cities rebelling against Rome in 66-70 AD?