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Bible and science?

Justified112

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Barbarian observes:
And yet whales and sharks all sorts flesh were not destroyed. So again your interpretation requires that God be wrong.



Not very convincing. Is it your argument that mammals like whales don't have flesh?
It is clear from the context of the chapter that God had only those things living on the earth in mind.


Those livestock in the Midwest are being saved, even though their loss won't wipe out a species. So you're wrong,again.
No, that actually makes my point. A global flood would require a means of preserving life, as ther would be no way to save anyone or anything from a global flood without something like an ark.

You think there are windows in the sky where water falls out when the windows are opened?
Doesn't matter what I think. The fact is that

The Black Sea flood covered mountains. They are now submerged under the Black Sea.
Not talking about the Black Sea. The Bible says that the flood covered the mountains and the ark came to rest in the mountains of Ararat after the water receded, which is impossible if the flood was the Black Sea, as the waters of the Black Sea didn't recede, hence there is a sea there.

One of them, you want to take literally, so you do, and the other one you don't want to take literally, so you don't. You're just reading it to suit your own wishes.
Nope. Peter isn't using hyperbole, so that is not the case.



Unless it doesn't fit what you want, and then you say "world" is just a figure of speech. When the Bible says Rome counted the whole world, it doesn't mean the whole Earth, and you're O.K. with that. But when you want it to mean the whole Earth, then you declare that it must be so interpreted. It's the cafeteria Christian way.
That's a good reason why I say that I am far better at exegesis than you are. I don't confuse contexts. Luke was using hyperbole and we know that because the Roman Empire did not cover the whole earth. Peter says that only 8 people survived the flood. No one on earth but those 8 people. That's not hyperbole. He literally means that after the flood the only people alive on the earth was Noah and his family and they literally repopulated the earth.

So many YE creationists are far more dishonest about the Bible than atheists.
Nope, we agree that the Bible is inconsistent with Evolution. And they are correct.

However, most atheists do not make this claim, knowing that it is dishonest.
Nope, it is an honest and objective claim. It's why theistic evolutionists have to claim that Genesis 1-11 is not real history. It's why theistic evolutionists claim that "day" doesn't mean day, and that there was no fall in the Garden and that Adam was not first man on earth and whole litany of claims that require them to disqualify the Bible as inerrant and that you can't really take the Bible as written.
 
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Justified112

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Barbarian observes:


If you're talking about evolution, that's what we're talking about. I suspect you're talking about some imagined set of ideas you've dreamed up and call it "evolution."
Mutations within a given species isn't what we commonly refer to when we speak of Evolution. We have not observed one species evolving into another species. Mutations within a given species do not prove the kind of macro-evolution that I am referring to. And that is part of the problem. When evolutionists are asked for evidence for macro-evolution, they offer up micro-evolution, but those are two completely different things and one does not prove the other.

Or possibly, you've confused the causes of evolution, such as mutation and natural selection, with evolution. Or confused consequences of evolution,such as common descent, with evolution.
No, I am not confusing anything at all. The mutations we observe have to do with adapting to an particular environment. Horses have changed over millennia, but they are still horses.


Individuals don't evolve. Populations evolve.
Populations are made up of individuals .

It is true that things like the evolution of the vertebrate or cephalopod eye, or DNA demonstrate the immense wisdom of a Creator wise and powerful enough to make a world in which such things come about in fulfillment of His will. And in doing so, it brings glory to the Creator.



That's a lie. Shame on you.
Nope. Evolution as presented by evolutionists occurs without anyone, any personality to help it along. It is complete natural and is unguided.


Barbarian observes:
Yep. YE creationism is no older than the last century, having been invented by a Seventh-Day Adventist "prophetess."



I just showed you the documentation. No point in you denying it. Learn to live with the truth. God says it will make you free. Worth a try.
https://biologos.org/files/modules/giberson-scholarly-essay-1-1.pdf
I am not buying your "documentation."
 
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trophy33

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The Barbarian

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Mutations within a given species isn't what we commonly refer to when we speak of Evolution.

Sorry, you've been misled. Evolution is defined as a change in allele frequency in a population over time. If you don't even know what it is, how do you expect to be able to fight it?

We have not observed one species evolving into another species.

You've been misled about that, too. Even your fellow creationists know better. From "Answers in Genesis":

Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species.1 According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. In his famous book, On the Origin of Species, first published in 1859, Darwin set out to demolish this widespread view.

Darwin showed how the fixity of species ran counter to all the evidence he had been collecting for twenty years. His book managed to convince most scientists that species were not fixed or unchangeable. In the process, the church was proved wrong, with tragic consequences.

Do Species Change?

From the Institute for Creation Research:
Reproductive isolation can occur in a number of ways and result in speciation from one kind of animal through events that isolate one variation (species) from another. Many of these isolation events have been identified and are described as behavioral isolation, ecological isolation, and geographical isolation, to name a few.
Speciation and the Animals on the Ark

Mutations within a given species do not prove the kind of macro-evolution that I am referring to.

No, that's wrong. As you now realize, even your fellow YE creationists know better. You seem to be as ignorant of creationism as you are of science.

Or possibly, you've confused the causes of evolution, such as mutation and natural selection, with evolution. Or confused consequences of evolution,such as common descent, with evolution.

No, I am not confusing anything at all. The mutations we observe have to do with adapting to an particular environment. Horses have changed over millennia, but they are still horses.

No, that's wrong, too. Hyracotherium isn't a horse. It lacks pretty much everything that separates horses from other ungulates today, and yet it's part of a long chain of gradual changes that lead to horses. That's why Dr. Wise, your fellow YE creationist, says that it's part of the "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."

(thinks individual organisms evolve)

Barbarian explains:
Individuals don't evolve populations evolve.

Populations are made up of individuals .

You still don't get it. No individual organism evolves. Only populations evolve.

Barbarian observes:
It is true that things like the evolution of the vertebrate or cephalopod eye, or DNA demonstrate the immense wisdom of a Creator wise and powerful enough to make a world in which such things come about in fulfillment of His will. And in doing so, it brings glory to the Creator.


Yep. Most YE creationists are unwilling to let God be that wise and powerful, but He's not obligated to have the limitations you'd like to put on Him.

Evolution as presented by evolutionists occurs without anyone, any personality to help it along.

Pretty much like gravity, or weather or other natural phenomena. Your problem, is you can't see how God can use nature to do His will. But again, He's not constrained by your expectations.

(Barbarian shows the origins of YE creationism)

Ellen White (1827-1915) was a prophetess whose writings have been widely translated. She experienced the “Great Disappointment” on October 22, 1844, when Jesus failed to appear as predicted by William Miller, the leader of her sect. Shortly after, she began receiving visions and was soon at the heart of a new branch ofChristianity that now boasts more than 14 million followers in 200 countries. Her literary output exceeded 5,000 articles and 40 books. Among White’s influential writings is Patriarchs and Prophets in her series “Conflict of the Ages,” first published in1890. In this text White offers an expanded vision of Bible stories such as the Genesis creation accounts, the Fall, and Noah’s great flood. In a curious twist of history, modern young-earth creationism can be traced to her visionary expansion of the Genesis flood narrative. The Origin of Flood Geology By mid-nineteenthcentury, when White’s visions began, geologists, almost all of them Bible-believing Christians, had concluded that Noah’s flood was confined to the mid-East. Its effects had been largely erased over time. This interpretation of the story, which Hebrew scholars have determined is a faithful interpretation of Genesis, was uncontroversial and accepted by most educated Christians.
...
White’s interpretation of the biblical narratives attracted little interest outside Adventist circles, but within the Adventist tradition her writings acquired a stature comparable to Scripture. Her interpretation of the Flood became widely known outside Adventistcircles through the writings of George McCready Price (1870-1963). A self-taught geologist with limited education beyond high school, Price was a gifted writer, amateur scientist, and tireless crusader in the cause of anti-evolution. His 723-page The New Geology,2published in 1923, was catapulted into relevance by William Jennings Bryan, who prosecuted John Scopes at the famous trial in Dayton, Tennessee, in 1925. But even Bryan, the most important anti-evolutionist of the first half of the twentiethcentury was not a young-earth creationist, seeing no reason to interpret the Genesis creation account as taking place over a literal seven-day week. Because these creationist ideas were basically limited to Seventh-day Adventist biblical interpretation, most Christians outside that group paid no attention to them, and many were fine with the idea that evolution was simply God’s method of creation. A few decades later, however, all this would change when respected fundamentalist scholars John Whitcomb and HenryMorris joined forces to move Price’s ideas from Adventism to mainstream Evangelicalism. They co-authored The Genesis Flood, the book that launched the modern creationist movement and convinced millions of Christians to accept White’s vision of earth history. But what is not widely known, because the authors of The Genesis Flood left it out of their book, is that the arguments in the book are really just Price’s arguments, updated to provide a more scientific presentation.
https://biologos.org/files/modules/giberson-scholarly-essay-1-1.pdf


I am not buying your "documentation."

Doesn't matter. Reality isn't subject to your denial.
 
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The Barbarian

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Can this be proven with certainity? If not or if "so-so", then this is a weak point of the article, IMO.

Yep. Prior to Price's efforts to convert evangelicals to the Adventist doctrine, most creationists were OE creationists. The creationism presented at the Scopes Trial, for example, was OE.

The great Baptist preacher, Charles Spurgeon, preached millions of years of Earth's history before man.

Price's ideas were borrowed again in the early 1960s by Henry M. Morris and John Whitcomb in their book The Genesis Flood, a work that skeptic Martin Gardner calls "the most significant attack on evolution...since the Scopes trial". Morris, in his 1984 book History of Modern Creationism, spoke glowingly of Price's logic and writing style, and referred to reading The New Geology as "a life-changing experience for me".
Numbers, Ronald (November 30, 2006). The Creationists: From Scientific Creationism to Intelligent Design, Expanded Edition. Harvard University Press. ISBN 0-674-02339-0.
 
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Justified112

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Answer the question and I'll tell you.
If you are talking about Bartemaeus, then only one in Mark. In Matthew, there was two blind men healed, one of them was Bartemaus. In Luke, there was a third one as he was approaching Jericho.
 
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The Barbarian

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If you demand absolute consistency to tiny details in scripture like how the Earth brought forth living things, or how many blind men were cured at Jericho on a specific day, you're trying to make it into something that it is not.

It's about God and man and our relationship. That's all God intended it to be. Let it be his way.
 
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Cis.jd

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I am personally against the use of the Bible as a book that "revealed this before science did". The Bible is about God and his relationship to man, and vise versa. Not a book of science. It wasn't made to give any knowledge about nature, space, math, or anything significant to science related questions or topics.

It should not be used for politics or as some "scientific proof for christianity".
 
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sfs

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When evolutionists are asked for evidence for macro-evolution, they offer up micro-evolution, but those are two completely different things and one does not prove the other.
Biologists have far more evidence than microevolution as evidence for common ancestry of different species. Biogeography, the nested hierarchy of existing species, and the fossil record are all evidence for common ancestry, but easily the best evidence comes from genetics. There are lots of ways to compare genomes between species, and for all of them common ancestry provides a good explanation, and often quite detailed predictions, while they make no sense under any other theory.
 
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The Barbarian

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There is also this from the Vatican's International Theological Commission, headed by Cardinal Ratzinger, later Pope Benedict XIV.

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION

COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP
Human Persons Created in the Image of God

...
According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the “Big Bang” and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets. In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.


64. Pope John Paul II stated some years ago that “new knowledge leads to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge”(“Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Evolution”1996). In continuity with previous twentieth century papal teaching on evolution (especially Pope Pius XII’s encyclical Humani Generis ), the Holy Father’s message acknowledges that there are “several theories of evolution” that are “materialist, reductionist and spiritualist” and thus incompatible with the Catholic faith. It follows that the message of Pope John Paul II cannot be read as a blanket approbation of all theories of evolution, including those of a neo-Darwinian provenance which explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe. Mainly concerned with evolution as it “involves the question of man,” however, Pope John Paul’s message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the “ontological leap” to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific terms.
Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God
 
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Justified112

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Biologists have far more evidence than microevolution as evidence for common ancestry of different species. Biogeography, the nested hierarchy of existing species, and the fossil record are all evidence for common ancestry, but easily the best evidence comes from genetics. There are lots of ways to compare genomes between species, and for all of them common ancestry provides a good explanation, and often quite detailed predictions, while they make no sense under any other theory.
Yeah, none of that actually supports the primary claims of the theory of evolution.
 
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Jon Osterman

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I believe the bible is entirely true, but I think we first have to define what “true” means. Was Jesus parable about the Good Samaritan true? If not, why not? It obviously contains a lot of truth in it. The Jewish tradition was to tell truth via stories. I see the story of Noah and, for example, Job, as no different. They are true stories, as in they contain great truths, but are stories nevertheless, just as the parable of the Good Samaritan is a story.

In fact, I would take this further. Those who insist that these are not stories, who insist that they are literally true in every detail, are being worldly. They are reading the text with a Greek mindset, in a way that was never intended. They are applying modern storytelling to the ancient text and then deriving false meaning. This is heretical. We are not supposed to be jumping through mind-hoops to explain how the kangaroos got into the ark - we are supposed to be learning about the nature of God from the story of Noah. That is where the truth resides.

So I believe there is no contradiction between religion and science, except in the minds of ungodly men.
 
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The Barbarian

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Yeah, none of that actually supports the primary claims of the theory of evolution.

Most people who say things like that, don't even know what the "primary claims of the theory of evolution" are.

What do you think they are? (prediction: no answer, or a completely erroneous one)

Should be interesting to see what we get on this.
 
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The Barbarian

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In fact, I would take this further. Those who insist that these are not stories, who insist that they are literally true in every detail, are being worldly. They are reading the text with a Greek mindset, in a way that was never intended. They are applying modern storytelling to the ancient text and then deriving false meaning. This is heretical. We are not supposed to be jumping through mind-hoops to explain how the kangaroos got into the ark - we are supposed to be learning about the nature of God from the story of Noah. That is where the truth resides.

So I believe there is no contradiction between religion and science, except in the minds of ungodly men.

Well said, and I agree almost entirely. If I can, I'd offer this opinion, though:

Those who derive false meaning from scripture by insisting that the text is literally true in every detail, are usually not heretics, but rather merely in error.

A heretic is one who proclaims belief in Christ by adheres to doctrines he knows to be contrary to Christian belief. If one does not recognize that he is contrary to Christian belief on any given point, he is merely in error.

Since few Christian denominations make doctrinal stands on evolution/creation, but admit that one may believe either of these to be true, YE creationists are merely in error, not heretics, when they say that their beliefs are essential Christian beliefs. Further, intent matters:

"The heretical tenets may be adhered to from involuntary causes: inculpable ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness—free choice—is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one’s own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonorable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of 'freely willed'."
Heresy

Other than that nitpicky disagreement, you have my admiration for so accurately and succinctly summing up the issue.
 
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