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Aron Ra destroys Hovind

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Brightmoon

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That was just one of the elements of the culture war, after the Dover case the matter was decided as a matter of Federal Law, not that it was ever a serious question. Intelligent design was religious since it invoked God as cause, therefore it's out. The discussions here started to fizzle and the frenzy everyone was in faded away. Creationism is all but nonexistent now, all I'm seeing on here is some superficial personal taunts, which is a big relief after the zombie horde I faced when I started posting here. Ok maybe you know something about biology, not that that has much to do with it. What you don't know is that creation, not creationism, is a Christian doctrine that transcends from Genesis 1 to Revelations 22. By implication the incarnation, the resurrection and being born again is dismissed along with the doctrine of creation since, if God didn't create life then the promise of eternal life is rendered rhetorical and figurative along with it.

Think what you like, I took an evidencial approach to this early and often. Paleontology and genomics are the key lines of evidence and that gets buried in these discussions early. Your arguing against a strawman and these discussions are riddled with logical fallacies big enough to drive a truck through. If what you are saying were true, I don't think you would bother with the subject matter. But deep down I think you realize there are more creationists out there then there are atheistic materialists and Darwinisms. The current culture of academic and scientific elitists find that unacceptable, except culture wars never really stop, the just change venue.
. Since there’s no verifiable physical evidence for creationist ideas I tend to dismiss them . The ball is in the creationist court
 
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mark kennedy

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Now you're just trolling Mark. C'mon, you're better than this.

| NCSE
No, I'm just fishing the thread for a little substantive discussion. By the way, I don't troll, when I get worked up I flame. There hasn't been that much to get worked up about in a good long while and I always wondered if there was someone out there who saw the big picture here. There is no way creationism is going away, that's just going to be a fact of life in America because it's protected by the Constitution. Look around, when is the last time you seen a serious substantive approach to the subject by a creationist? I have tried in vain to get them interested in the actual evidence and Darwinians are far worse.

The culture war continues and I cannot honestly say at this point I know who is winning. Evidential apologetics, especially the Natural Theology of Creationism has always been frowned upon by Christian theologians. What I could tell you after years on study on the subject is the philosophical roots of Darwinism doesn't interest them much, and they could care less. With that going on at a basic level I doubt seriously any of this matters in in halls of academia and scientific thinking.

The culture wars are over, you guys won hands down. Every court decision has gone your way with one key nuance in the law, religious expression and conviction is beyond the reach of government in the United States. Jerry Farwell once said of Christian activists, if they win they go home and if they lose they go home. That is what is happening, look around the theater is empty. The creationists and most of the Darwinians left a long time ago. It's over, and as disappointing as it is for me I'm profoundly relieved that it's out of the public arena. It's back in the hearts and minds of Christians were it belongs and you can't touch it there because, they have nothing to do with his kind of a discussion.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Discussion between Aron Ra and Hovind on the topic of kinds vs. cladistics. ... Worth the time.

p.s. not even worth the time to glance at, nor to read the thread. It is based on false testimony, apparently with what I would call a wrong motive, and apparently no good results for anyone....
 
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mark kennedy

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. Since there’s no verifiable physical evidence for creationist ideas I tend to dismiss them . The ball is in the creationist court
Oh there are tons, not that most Creationists are aware of that fact. I'm glad you dismiss it, this will emerge again over time but I doubt there will be much come of it. You haven't made a single substantive point and your dismissal of Mendel was profoundly disappointing. I only pop in here from time to time because it's such an easy source for a quick start debate. I miss the days of the zombie hordes, man I learned a lot in those days. My interest here isn't the subject matter, what fascinates me is you guys. When I start seeing the hominem fallacy take center stage I know it's over, the conversation never recovers from that catastrophic breach in logic. Right now I'm just watching the death spiral and enjoying the echo in the empty Darwinian theater of the mind.
 
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Brightmoon

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Well you can watch short lived organisms evolve and there’s no evidence for separate creation . I thought it was rather pointless for the Church to argue for a phenomena that doesn’t happen and to argue against one that does. It’s makes people of faith look like they’re deluded at best
 
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mark kennedy

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Well you can watch short lived organisms evolve and there’s no evidence for separate creation . I thought it was rather pointless for the Church to argue for a phenomena that doesn’t happen and to argue against one that does. It’s makes people of faith look like they’re deluded at best
You have assumed that before you ever started, spending time on actual evidence at this point isn't going to do much. It's actually encouraging for me to see this, so typical. If this is all you guys have I can let Creationism go it's way in peace while you chase the real rationality behind it like ghosts in the fog.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Well you can watch short lived organisms evolve and there’s no evidence for separate creation . I thought it was rather pointless for the Church to argue for a phenomena that doesn’t happen and to argue against one that does. It’s makes people of faith look like they’re deluded at best
That doesn't make sense to me.

Why would you be looking for or expect to see creation happening ?

People of faith are FOOLISH FOR CHRIST'S SAKE - as it is the foolishness of the GOSPEL OF JESUS that can save anyone, and no one can be saved without Jesus.
 
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mark kennedy

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Id love to see creationists make substantial progress as I’m Christian . As I’ve stated the ball is in their court ..... I’m not holding my breath
The strange case of the incredible shrinking argument, reduced to it's inevitable ad hominem core, so be it. Thanks for the exchange, I don't know if I will have to put you on ignore just yet but it's been pleasant, let's keep it that way. Christian huh? That's great, so you believe in the Incarnation, Resurrection and the soon return of Christ. Check out the first three stanzas of the Nicene Creed and consider this, how is that not focused on creation as foundational, essential doctrine?

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Subduction Zone

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That doesn't make sense to me.

Why would you be looking for or expect to see creation happening ?

People of faith are FOOLISH FOR CHRIST'S SAKE - as it is the foolishness of the GOSPEL OF JESUS that can save anyone, and no one can be saved without Jesus.
Creationism is a separate argument form whether or not Christianity is valid. No one is challenging Christianity by using evolution. Only the errant doctrine of biblical literacy. Not everything in the Bible was meant to be taken literally.
 
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Brightmoon

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That doesn't make sense to me.

Why would you be looking for or expect to see creation happening ?

People of faith are FOOLISH FOR CHRIST'S SAKE - as it is the foolishness of the GOSPEL OF JESUS that can save anyone, and no one can be saved without Jesus.
you creationists are the ones who claim that separate creation happened so there should be verifiable evidence for it . No problem! But if this did happen according to creationist say so then there should be physical evidence .instead we get a version of pigeon chess from creationists. They knock over the pieces ( refuse to accept any verifiable evidence) poop all over the board( change accepted terminology) and declare that they’ve won ( lost every major court case after the Monkey Trial) There’s physical evidence for evolution!
 
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AV1611VET

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you creationists are the ones who claim that separate creation happened so there should be verifiable evidence for it.
Such as?

An ion trail? plasma cloud? time crystals? cosmic microwave radiation?

First there was nothing.

Then God spoke and the earth came into existence ex nihilo.

So what evidence would have been left behind?

God doesn't do sloppy work.
 
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Colter

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Discussion between Aron Ra and Hovind on the topic of kinds vs. cladistics. This is one of the best eviscerations of a creationist I have ever seen. Worth the time.

Evolution is the observation of life evolving from the initial creation event; mind emerging from matter.
 
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