Slavery IS Regulated in the Bible!

[InterestedAtheist]

If I thought you'd really have a change of heart in doing the work, I might consider doing so. But so far, you seem to be fairly trollish, so I'm rather hesitant to waste my time when you can do what you're supposed to do with hermeneutics.

Friendly warning, Philo. Calling someone a troll, or referring to them as Satan, or insulting their reading level, are not nice. I see them as personal insults, and I request that you refrain from them.
And by the way, I'm not trolling you. I'm arguing with sincerity. I think you're getting angry because you're on the losing end.

I mean, rather than listen to the direct squawking of atheists, I just go buy books by some of your supposedly 'best' minds and read those; this means I find them, and then I read them. You atheists can attempt to do the same with the Bible and with Christian Apologetic and Philosophical literature.

Funnily enough, I've read some of those books before - Richard Dawkins, Dan Barker, and Christopher Hitchens. Generally speaking, they make few active arguments of their own; the role of the atheist is to listen to the theists and point out where they're wrong. We can see this in action on CF, and I have not been impressed by your responses so far.
As to reading them myself: if you feel you have an argument to make, then please do so. I might enjoy reading books by Christian apologists in my free time, but in a debate like this, I don't have time to do your research for you.

You're not a remedial reader, are you? 'Cuz these passages were something Jesus pulled from when He said that He "came to set the captives free."
But, I guess that part doesn't stand out for you. How sad!

Philo, you can't simply latch on to a single word in a sentence and invent a meaning out of it. When Jesus said, in Isaiah 61, that he was sent to bind up the brokenheartedand set the captives free, he was talking about spiritual salvation. Jesus said He had come to rescue the world from sin. He wasn't talking about leading a slave revolution. You have to look at the context, and the context of this Isaiah is about Jesus leading Israel to righteousness.
Just because he happened to use the word "captive" (which is not at all the same word as "slave, by the way") it doesn't mean you get to appropriate these verses to serve your argument.

Well sure, just as prisons are okay with me in our current society. Although, I do think that servitude of prisoners among the populace would go further in rehabilitating them than in throwing them all together into cells and basically leaving them to themselves as is seemingly the case today.

I like the way you say:

"Of course, on the other hand, those foreign prisoners of war and/or criminal types [think 'gangsta types'] who were not 'well-intended' could be subject to ... some beatings as slaves, especially if they remained recalcitrant to correction."

and then assume that every person who became a slave in Israel was a bad person who deserved whatever happened to them. A good thing the abolitionists of the nineteenth century didn't think like that!

Admittedly, I do make "a" concession; however, I don't do so in the way that you surmise. I specifically talking about Israel's slaves gained by their own victories in war, not by going to other nation's .... or continents....looking for poor souls to take advantage of outside the confines of Israel, such as American slavers did by intermingling with other slave traders directly from the continent of Africa.

But you said that it was just for prisoners of war to be made slaves. Well, if African leaders took prisoners of war and made them slaves, why shouldn't they do what they like with them?
For the very good reason, of course, that it's an evil thing to do. But according to you and the Bible, it's okay to take prisoners of war and enslave them. Well, that's what your position logically leads to.

Yes, I hear you Satan, but as Jesus said, "You shall live by EVERY word that comes from God and not just by those little few verses that you so like to peck out ..."

If you're looking to see what God thinks about slavery, then look to see what He says about slavery. There are verses in the Bible where the Lord and His prophets tell you, directly and plainly, that slavery is allowed, permitted, and to be encouraged. Why don't you read them and believe them?

.....uh-uh. Not like the laws in the O.T. we don't. If we did, we'd be opening our borders to those [like refugee Hispanic women and children, some honest men] who wanted to truly assimilate to our way of life, and we'd actually care for them, give them food and clothing, and help them find jobs ... AND we'd put a bullet through the head of every gangsta type mischief makers or drug-lords who thought they'd just stroll on in and make themselves at home for raping, killing, stealing and otherwise remaining uncooperative. So, no, America obviously DOESN'T have laws like that ................

You'd put a bullet through the head of people you suspected of coming to the USA to commit crimes? That's not a good thing.

Am I supposed to catch all of the snow that your sending down here, or am I just supposed to standby and watch in awe as it falls, one flake at a time?

You're supposed to respond to the point, either admitting that it's right, or explaining why it's wrong: there are a lot of rules in society, whether today's or in Biblical times, about how people should be good and respectful to each other, and so there should be. But these do not take precedence over direct commandments on how to treat people.
In other words, the reason that God, Jesus and Paul didn't speak out against slavery was that they approved of it. If they hadn't, they certainly would have said so. If someone today said "Be nice to people" you certainly wouldn't say, "So shall I open all the prison doors?"
Slavery was a part of the social fabric, established and ordained by God. General commandments about being nice to people do not apply to it.

..... Same old arguments? I think not.

Exactly the same old arguments. The abolitionists point out, correctly, that slavery is an evil and horrible thing, and that it's very bad to keep people against their will, force them to work, and punish them. To back this up, they quoted from the Bible about being good to others. The pro-slavery side pointed out, also correctly, that slavery was sanctioned and approved of by God in the Bible, and that if God had wanted to abolish slavery He would have said so.

...................Oh, when I have the time, I'm going to feel such satisfaction in tearing a huge whole in this tripe you've slaked out for me to read from "Pastor" Warren. It's going to come down rather hard. I can't wait for the bonfire!

Your mistake, Philo, is in thinking that just because you are morally right, you are automatically going to win the argument. You will find that Pastor Warren had the Bible on his side in this case.
Oh, and please do remember that I have already said that I disagree with some of what Warren says myself. When, for example, he says that slaves are contented with their lot compared to serfs revolting all around the world at the time, I'm sure we can both see the error. But if you think that his quoting the Bible is tripe, then you must not have been paying attention in this thread. We've been presenting much the same arguments, and you've failed to refute them.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

If you agree with me that involuntary slavery is evil, then His plan evident in the Bible has been to end that and other evils by totally and profoundly changing us -- people.

I must interrupt you here, to point out that there are two problems with what you've just said.
First, which plan is this? God never refers to any long-term plan on the subject of slaves. All you are doing is projecting your own views on to God here.
Second, if God did indeed intend to deliver humanity from slavery in the long term - well, first of all, why in the long term? Why not just stop it with his almighty powers? Was God helpless when confronted by the evil of Noah's generation? Could God do nothing when his people were bound in Egypt? No. So if God really does abhor slavery, He could and would have simply stopped it, just as He did with everything else He hated.
Third - if we do consider that God has a long-term plan in mind, He went about it in a very strange way. Why on earth would He encourage slavery? Why didn't He just say nothing about it? No, His actions not only perpetuated and advanced slavery, they allowed future Christians good reason to begin another Age of Slaves.

So, in short, when you speak of God having a plan, either you're incorrect, or God's plan has nothing to do with slavery. All the evidence of the Old and New Testaments shows that God is fine with slavery.

So, is it ok for a Christian to think they can disregard the welfare of others, servants, employees, slaves, neighbors, 'illegal immigrants' ?....

What would you think from the above is the answer to that question?

It certainly seems that the message of this parable is that cruelty and neglect is to be punished. But, since neither God, nor Jesus, nor any of the prophets said anything to condemn slavery, and indeed said much to praise it, it is clear that they saw it as a social institution approved of by God; and, if you believe that God inspired the Bible, so should you.

Now, you asked:

So, is it ok for a Christian to think they can disregard the welfare of others, servants, employees, slaves, neighbors, 'illegal immigrants' ?....

I think the answer would be - the answer that God, or Jesus, or Paul would all give you - is that a person who treats others unjustly should certainly be punished. A man who kills his slave, a man who beats his slave when he is drunk, a man who beats his slave for the pleasure of the act - certainly. But they would not think that a man owning slaves, or making them work, or punishing them if he felt he had good cause was wrong. The Bible clearly says that just slaveowners would be in the right, and rebellious slaves should be punished.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

At this point, I have a question to ask. I'm not at all sure I'll get an answer, though, because it's an uncomfortable question.

If you thought that the Bible did command slavery, that it did show that God approves of slavery, what effect would that have on you? Would you feel you could no longer be a Christian if it was shown that God was pro-slavery? At the very least, would it cause you distress to contemplate?

If the answer is yes, as I think it probably is, then that would explain why you're so dead-set against the possibility, despite God Himself telling you what He thinks.

I don't have a dog in this fight. It's of no concern to me what the Bible says about anything. But I think that you have strong reason to be biased in this discussion, and that it's clouding your judgement.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Sorry. Back again now. I had something of a trip to make. Now then, to return to our conversation:

In other words, it was the West's adoption of Christian values that caused us to eventually abandon slavery. The pagan world certainly wasn't going to.

First, how can you know about a history that never happened? If Christianity had not got lucky and become the dominant religion, if pagan polytheism had remained the rule, how can you know that an abolitionist movement would not have come to be?
Second, there are plenty of anti-slavery influences outside of Christianity. Slave uprisings in non-Christian lands; the French Revolution, and the Enlightenment.
Third, while many Christians may have decided that Christianity required them to be abolitionists, they were in error; as we've seen in this thread, Christianity has nothing but good to say about slavery.

If we eliminate Christianity as you seem to hope we do, we lose the meta-ethical basis for the eradication of slavery.

First, this has nothing to do with whether or not the Bible endorses slavery.
Second, no, we wouldn't. Although Christianity has, of course, influenced the history of the western world, it is quite incorrect to say that our current moral outlook is based on Christianity.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Friendly warning, Philo. Calling someone a troll, or referring to them as Satan, or insulting their reading level, are not nice. I see them as personal insults, and I request that you refrain from them.
And by the way, I'm not trolling you. I'm arguing with sincerity. I think you're getting angry because you're on the losing end.


Funnily enough, I've read some of those books before - Richard Dawkins, Dan Barker, and Christopher Hitchens. Generally speaking, they make few active arguments of their own; the role of the atheist is to listen to the theists and point out where they're wrong. We can see this in action on CF, and I have not been impressed by your responses so far.
As to reading them myself: if you feel you have an argument to make, then please do so. I might enjoy reading books by Christian apologists in my free time, but in a debate like this, I don't have time to do your research for you.


Philo, you can't simply latch on to a single word in a sentence and invent a meaning out of it. When Jesus said, in Isaiah 61, that he was sent to bind up the brokenheartedand set the captives free, he was talking about spiritual salvation. Jesus said He had come to rescue the world from sin. He wasn't talking about leading a slave revolution. You have to look at the context, and the context of this Isaiah is about Jesus leading Israel to righteousness.
Just because he happened to use the word "captive" (which is not at all the same word as "slave, by the way") it doesn't mean you get to appropriate these verses to serve your argument.


I like the way you say:

"Of course, on the other hand, those foreign prisoners of war and/or criminal types [think 'gangsta types'] who were not 'well-intended' could be subject to ... some beatings as slaves, especially if they remained recalcitrant to correction."

and then assume that every person who became a slave in Israel was a bad person who deserved whatever happened to them. A good thing the abolitionists of the nineteenth century didn't think like that!


But you said that it was just for prisoners of war to be made slaves. Well, if African leaders took prisoners of war and made them slaves, why shouldn't they do what they like with them?
For the very good reason, of course, that it's an evil thing to do. But according to you and the Bible, it's okay to take prisoners of war and enslave them. Well, that's what your position logically leads to.


If you're looking to see what God thinks about slavery, then look to see what He says about slavery. There are verses in the Bible where the Lord and His prophets tell you, directly and plainly, that slavery is allowed, permitted, and to be encouraged. Why don't you read them and believe them?


You'd put a bullet through the head of people you suspected of coming to the USA to commit crimes? That's not a good thing.


You're supposed to respond to the point, either admitting that it's right, or explaining why it's wrong: there are a lot of rules in society, whether today's or in Biblical times, about how people should be good and respectful to each other, and so there should be. But these do not take precedence over direct commandments on how to treat people.
In other words, the reason that God, Jesus and Paul didn't speak out against slavery was that they approved of it. If they hadn't, they certainly would have said so. If someone today said "Be nice to people" you certainly wouldn't say, "So shall I open all the prison doors?"
Slavery was a part of the social fabric, established and ordained by God. General commandments about being nice to people do not apply to it.


Exactly the same old arguments. The abolitionists point out, correctly, that slavery is an evil and horrible thing, and that it's very bad to keep people against their will, force them to work, and punish them. To back this up, they quoted from the Bible about being good to others. The pro-slavery side pointed out, also correctly, that slavery was sanctioned and approved of by God in the Bible, and that if God had wanted to abolish slavery He would have said so.


Your mistake, Philo, is in thinking that just because you are morally right, you are automatically going to win the argument. You will find that Pastor Warren had the Bible on his side in this case.
Oh, and please do remember that I have already said that I disagree with some of what Warren says myself. When, for example, he says that slaves are contented with their lot compared to serfs revolting all around the world at the time, I'm sure we can both see the error. But if you think that his quoting the Bible is tripe, then you must not have been paying attention in this thread. We've been presenting much the same arguments, and you've failed to refute them.

Since you apparently have done nothing but ignore my sources (which represent my arguments being that I do so hate singular syllogistic thinking--it's way to brief), and since I'm apparently mistaken at every turn no matter what I have to say or present, then I take my leave of our little engagement since I have more pressing and interesting matters to discuss with a couple of other atheists here who tend to be more thoughtful that you .....

 

[InterestedAtheist]

But I haven't ignored your sources. I've read them, when you've provided them, as well as your arguments, and explained to you why you are mistaken in them.I can't just pick up a book and then argue against it for you; how do I know if the book expresses your views? No, you need to tell me what you think and why, so that I can agree or disagree with you. That's how conversation goes.

And yes, you are indeed mistaken at every turn. This is no insult to you. The reason that everything you've said is mistaken is because you base your ideas on a faulty premise - that the Bible does not endorse slavery, when of course it does.
I've come to think that is something you're incapable of admitting, and since you can't disprove it...

Oh well. Enjoy your other conversations.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But I haven't ignored your sources. I've read them, when you've provided them, as well as your arguments, and explained to you why you are mistaken in them.I can't just pick up a book and then argue against it for you; how do I know if the book expresses your views? No, you need to tell me what you think and why, so that I can agree or disagree with you. That's how conversation goes.

Not really. I've noticed you have a selective pattern in your responses wherein you choose those details you find interesting and by which you can proceed to reconstrue what has been said, and at the same time, skip over and ignore those other details stated by your opponent that you find .... inconvenient. So, EITHER you're completely dishonest and you're just here to keep turning the wheels of dissolution and dissonance against the Christian faith no matter what, OR you and I come at these religious issues/problems from not only utterly different paradigms, but with decisively different individual praxes. And this basically means that we'll essentially disagree not only about the essence of religion, but also as to HOW one should go about evaluating religion (or our political ideals).

So, assuming even that you're honest and actually want to believe in the Christian faith if it just so happens to be true, the fact remains that you and I don't see eye to eye on 'how' issues are to be explored, analyzed and evaluated and this means that there's very, very little over which we'll be able to find common ground. Thus, I propose I bow out from further conversation here with you at his point ...

And yes, you are indeed mistaken at every turn. This is no insult to you. The reason that everything you've said is mistaken is because you base your ideas on a faulty premise - that the Bible does not endorse slavery, when of course it does.
I've come to think that is something you're incapable of admitting, and since you can't disprove it...

...and likewise, you seem to ignore the fact that the Bible not only endorses loving the well-intended FOREIGNER/STRANGER/SOJOURER, but makes it a de facto point of salvation. If we don't do these things and treat people with care and love, assuming they're not completely criminalized psychopaths, then we can be assured that we'll miss the boat in finding salvation in Christ, no matter how much we claim to be either Christians or some kind of self-avowed "moral skeptic" (whatever that really is...).

Oh well. Enjoy your other conversations.

Yes, I will.

Peace.

 

[Halbhh]

But, since neither God, nor Jesus, nor any of the prophets said anything to condemn slavery, and indeed said much to praise it...

What passages "praise" (your word) slavery (using the common meaning of 'slavery' to be involuntary slavery of humans by humans)?

 

[Halbhh]

Did he tell Philemon 's master that it was his duty to free his slaves?

Since you used the plural "slaves" here, what source are you using? (I'm not asking for an opinion piece, some assumptions or educated guessing of course, but instead some kind of definite information such as from records or such -- what hard source do you know of, if any, about Philemon's having other slaves?)

 

[cvanwey]

I will only continue to answer your questions, IF you begin answering mine

Do you realize there is slavery still going on around the world?

This has absolutely NO relevancy to my inquiries. Of course there's still slavery; just as well as murder, child abuse, rape, theft, kidnapping, trespassing, adultery, etc... Please read carefully below....

I am NOT addressing the moral implications per se. However, it seems that YOU are against slavery. Otherwise, you would NOT ask me if I realize that slavery still exists. Which seems to mean you do not approve of slavery.

Hopefully you will finally start to see where I'm going with this post...

God explicitly disapproves of many of the above additional said topics (i.e.) murder, theft, trespassing, adultery, ... Maybe not so much the rape and the child abuse, (but we can leave that for another topic).

My point being....

You seem to disapprove of chattle slavery. However, God does not. God is either indifferent to chattle slavery, allows for it, or approves. We know this because he speaks specifically about it in scripture.

You now have a conflict to attempt to reconcile. God does not think slavery is bad. But you do. So I again ask you....

If chattle slavery was again legalized, is it a SIN? I'll take the liberty in answering for you. It's not, according to your believed God. Hence, why would you waste any time attempting to eradicate it, unless your moral compass does not align with God's? I.E. 'knowing' many things as 'wrong' or 'bad'.

Do you care to do anything yourself to try to fight against it?

If I do, does God care? The answer is no, as He is indifferent. A matter of fact, if slavery were completely exstinguished by humans, He might later ask... "Hey' I setup specific provisions for what one can do with other humans, as a slave.' Why do you humans think you are better than me, and abolish it?'

If God did not like slavery, God would have abolished it in His word. Just like He does for murder, theft, adultery, trespassing, etc... Anything short of abolishing it, means He is either indifferent, allows for it, or approves of it.

So that fact that YOU keep mentioning that Christians fight it, means Christians don't like it. Which means Christians seem to disagree with God's never-changing will. Odd... And yet you boast about it, as if Christians are the only ones doing 'good' about it. Again, odd...

Here are some:
Faith Alliance Against Slavery and Trafficking | FAAST Members

God does not consider chattle slavery a sin. Otherwise, God would have clearly defined what a slave is and is not. And then told humans what defined forms of 'slavery' were abolished, in Gods law.

***************

Okay. I keep fulfilling my end of the bargain. Can you please BEGIN to fill yours? 6th request:

1. If you are a Jew, you are not to be enslaved for life. But if you are not a Jew, you can be enslaved for life. If we are 'all one in' with Christ, why the Jewish favoritism? Seems as though Jesus is fond of the flesh, Jewish flesh specifically.

2. God allows slavery then, now, and forever. Any form of slavery is permissible, as slavery is not well defined. God does not consider slavery a sin.

3. Your notion of progressive revelation seems odd. God allows slavery, and does not consider it sin. So why then is there a need for it to later be changed or abolished?

4. God would know people use all forms of slavery. And yet, God never clarifies that any of such slavery is 'wrong.' If God knows humans are either dumb, or self serving, why would God not clarify what type of slavery is not permissible?

5. In affect, what (you) are saying, is that it is the Christians which don't like slavery... Why does Jesus not agree wholeheartedly? Why is it a 'feather in your cap' moment that America abolished slavery, when Jesus could care less if it's abolished? Jesus allows for it.

6. Slaves are considered property (less-than-human). Slave owners are to do with their slaves what they will, as instructed by the NT.

 

[Halbhh]

1. If you are a Jew, you are not to be enslaved for life. But if you are not a Jew, you can be enslaved for life. If we are 'all one in' with Christ, why the Jewish favoritism? Seems as though Jesus is fond of the flesh, Jewish flesh specifically.

2. God allows slavery then, now, and forever. Any form of slavery is permissible, as slavery is not well defined. God does not consider slavery a sin.

3. Your notion of progressive revelation seems odd. God allows slavery, and does not consider it sin. So why then is there a need for it to later be changed or abolished?

4. God would know people use all forms of slavery. And yet, God never clarifies that any of such slavery is 'wrong.' If God knows humans are either dumb, or self serving, why would God not clarify what type of slavery is not permissible?

5. In affect, what (you) are saying, is that it is the Christians which don't like slavery... Why does Jesus not agree wholeheartedly? Why is it a 'feather in your cap' moment that America abolished slavery, when Jesus could care less if it's abolished? Jesus allows for it.

6. Slaves are considered property (less-than-human). Slave owners are to do with their slaves what they will, as instructed by the NT.

If I do, does God care? The answer is no, as He is indifferent.

First, the crucial issue: How would a person think to know what God thinks so fully?

"...He is indifferent" you wrote. -- That's a theory, but is it correct?

First, an important thing to know is we definitely can only know some parts of what God thinks according to scripture.

And specifically we are told we cannot understand all He thinks, and cannot know all His thoughts (ask if you need a passage on that).

And they are clearly deep in view of various verses answered to you already, such as
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

There are lot more than only 5 or 8 verses in the New Testament about slavery.

Really, if you want to learn more about what God is doing about slavery you should ask someone like me that is willing to point you to the passages that are relevant, which are a lot more than only a few passages in the NT about how a Christian that is enslaved should be respectful towards their temporary master, in order to show Christ in their actions. A lot more than only those.

So, when I previously wrote answers to you to your questions above, such as the recent repeating of the same 5 again, which I had addressed before, you should read what I wrote as if it is indeed likely to be an answer, instead of discounting or dismissing it.

Instead, reading it, ask questions in relation to my answers I gave you to your questions.

Else you are in the position of getting answers and ignoring them, right?

 

[cvanwey]

First, the crucial issue: How would a person think to know what God thinks so fully?

I certainly would not begin to attempt to 'read God's mind.' All I know is what He does and does not say about the topic of slavery in the Bible. Not once does He abolish it, like He does with 'most' of the other topics (you) don't like. Remember, ANYTHING short of abolishing an act, either means you are indifferent to it, allow for it, agree with it, or like it

"...He is indifferent" you wrote. -- That's a theory, but is it correct?

Yes, please read above. Oh, wait a minute, He may also either be 'allowing of it', 'agreeing with it', or 'liking it.'

First, an important thing to know is we definitely can only know some parts of what God thinks according to scripture.

Correct. And ALL we know about slavery, is that God allows it (entirely), as He does not clearly define what a slave is and is not, and never writes specific laws to later abolish it. Furthermore, since God knows humans are flawed, God would also know that humans would enslave other humans in all sorts of ways. So if God does NOT approve of certain forms of slavery, it might be 'wise' to clarify what 'types of slavery' God disapproves of.... Don't you think?

And specifically we are told we cannot understand all He thinks, and cannot know all His thoughts (ask if you need a passage on that).

Not so fast... Seems pretty clear we know His thoughts on the topic of murder, adultery, trespassing, and theft. He doesn't like them. He simply tells humans not to do it.

In regards to 'slavery', thus far, He approves or allows for all forms. Can you find me a verse to direct otherwise? No one has, as of yet...

And they are clearly deep in view of various verses answered to you already, such as
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

https://biblehub.com/galatians/3-28.htm

I already answered this long ago....

A matter of fact, it rests as one of my 6 points in which I keep repeating; the very first one:

'1. If you are a Jew, you are not to be enslaved for life. But if you are not a Jew, you can be enslaved for life. If we are 'all one in' with Christ, why the Jewish favoritism? Seems as though Jesus is fond of the flesh, Jewish flesh specifically.'

There are lot more than only 5 or 8 verses in the New Testament about slavery.

I'm fully aware. And none speak for the abolishment of it. Which means God either allows, condones, and/or likes 'slavery'.

Really, if you want to learn more about what God is doing about slavery you should ask someone like me that is willing to point you to the passages that are relevant, which are a lot more than only a few passages in the NT about how a Christian that is enslaved should be respectful towards their temporary master, in order to show Christ in their actions. A lot more than only those.

Please 'teach' me. Please show me verses which demonstrate that certain forms of 'slavery' are a sin?

Oh wait, we haven't defined what a 'slave' is and is not. So how are we going to even begin to do that? We also do not know what God means by the word 'property'.

So good luck with your 'pointing' me to the relevant passages

Furthermore, I do not need to read much to know about what God thinks about MANY human perceived 'immoral' topics. Why the ambiguity, at best, with slavery?.?.?.?.?

So, when I previously wrote answers to you to your questions above, such as the recent repeating of the same 5 again, which I had addressed before, you should read what I wrote as if it is indeed likely to be an answer, instead of discounting or dismissing it.

You mentioned verse Matthew 7:12 a lot.

All this demonstrates, is that God would be okay with individuals whom voluntarily ask to be in slavery or bondage. However, a slave is not defined. Well, it kind of is, in that the word 'property' is also used and associated. Which would imply a possession. A possession does not have equal rights to humans. Thus, Matthew 7:12 or Mark 12:31 would not be applicable. And even if it somehow was, you then have a contradiction.

Otherwise, God would have had NO NEED to specify He hates murder, lying, theft, trespassing, etc... He just would have belted out 'the golden rule', and already know that humans instinctually KNOW what is 'good and bad'. But no, He clearly lays out what He thinks is bad. And slavery, in all it's forms, does not make that list. So it's not a sin, in any form, including chattle slavery.

So please, without further ado, address as they appear (request #7):

1. If you are a Jew, you are not to be enslaved for life. But if you are not a Jew, you can be enslaved for life. If we are 'all one in' with Christ, why the Jewish favoritism? Seems as though Jesus is fond of the flesh, Jewish flesh specifically.

2. God allows slavery then, now, and forever. Any form of slavery is permissible, as slavery is not well defined. God does not consider slavery a sin.

3. Your notion of progressive revelation seems odd. God allows slavery, and does not consider it sin. So why then is there a need for it to later be changed or abolished?

4. God would know people use all forms of slavery. And yet, God never clarifies that any of such slavery is 'wrong.' If God knows humans are either dumb, or self serving, why would God not clarify what type of slavery is not permissible?

5. In affect, what (you) are saying, is that it is the Christians which don't like slavery... Why does Jesus not agree wholeheartedly? Why is it a 'feather in your cap' moment that America abolished slavery, when Jesus could care less if it's abolished? Jesus allows for it.

6. Slaves are considered property (less-than-human). Slave owners are to do with their slaves what they will, as instructed by the NT.

 

[JackRT]

Slavery was a part of the social fabric,

Yes it certainly was.

established and ordained by God.

I disagree completely. Social order is determined by the people themselves and changes over time. But the people sometimes do believe that it is God ordained usually because rich and powerful promote that belief in order to preserve their privileged status.

 

[Halbhh]

'1. If you are a Jew, you are not to be enslaved for life. But if you are not a Jew, you can be enslaved for life. If we are 'all one in' with Christ, why the Jewish favoritism? Seems as though Jesus is fond of the flesh, Jewish flesh specifically.'

Favoritism is the question here.

There is no favoritism now --

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 verse is enough for those that believe, and it's settled.

But I can sympathize if you love to hear more than one verse. So, if it helps to get an additional statement:

9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism."
Romans 2 NIV
(the full passage of verses 6-16 (or even more like 1-16) ought to be highly interesting to many)

See, something happened when Christ came, and a very huge change in the overall situation for humanity. This new situation is often called the "New Covenant" -- it is not the same as the "Old Covenant". They are 2 different situations, and the rules were changed in profound ways, and more than just a couple of ways.

 

[Halbhh]

Which means God either allows, condones, and/or likes 'slavery'.

Involuntary slavery (and every other abuse also, all variations, A-Z) breaks this rule from Christ our Lord:

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Now, some obviously don't do this in relations to others. For example: some kept involuntary slaves and also represented themselves as belonging as a Christian.... They didn't follow the rule from Christ of what is right and good action, keeping the law as now perfected and now defined, for today, here in the New Covenant, by Christ. (which we become accountable for after we learn it, and to the extent we comprehend it (ask for references if needed))

And He specifically says in the very same chapter their fate, for those that disregard His words, refuse to obey them:

12“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. 13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

and...

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
Matthew 7 ESV


If you can comprehend the meaning, He says plainly that we have to do as He says.

It's not optional, though He says only "few" will.

Ergo --> it does not matter what men, a preacher, a church says, ultimately. He tells us the bottom line, that we must do what He says, or else we will be destroyed. Ultimately. In the way that matters -- not here in the temporary life that matters so much less, but in the final way that matters ultimately.

He is not less challenging today I think than 2,000 years ago. Just as challenging now as then.

 

[Halbhh]

A possession does not have equal rights to humans.

It's not possible to imagine a servant, slave, indentured servant, employee, child, etc. doesn't have equal rights under this:

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

There's no wiggle room there to pretend some whatever group of people, slaves, illegal immigrants, you-name-it aren't fully equal together with all other Christians.

 

[cvanwey]

Favoritism is the question here.

There is no favoritism now --

It would appear you admit God Himself applied favoritism, at least at one point, based upon nothing more than something the individual could never control; their race. Great job, at least we are starting to finally get somewhere.

I will now further probe question number one later.... Stay tuned....

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 verse is enough for those that believe, and it's settled.

The only thing 'settled' in this passages, and all corresponding passages around it, is that anyone whom has the ability to apply faith in Christ, is considered 'God's seed'. Meaning, if you believe, you are within the 'in group'. So I guess all condoned slaves will need to work really hard, especially if their master is a believer, and AWAIT for heaven after death. Because until then, slavery is allowed, by God, in all forms. No wonder many masters would want their slaves to read the Bible. "Work even harder for your believing masters. Don't worry about your status in this life, the next one will be better.'

PERFECT NOT FALSIFIABLE PLOY to keep their slaves in line. Wouldn't you agree? You don't have to answer, 'cuz I already know you won't, judging from your past responses. But who knows, maybe you'll surprise me.

But I can sympathize if you love to hear more than one verse. So, if it helps to get an additional statement:

9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

God does not consider 'slavery' evil. Not relevant.

http://biblehub.com/romans/2-10.htm

10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

There again appears a pecking order. The Jew, then, the gentile, as if they are separated by race or something.?.?.? Again something they cannot help. If all are one, then just state 'all believers' here, or 'all humans' here, something other than distinguishing by race.

A second note... Does God consider slavery 'good'? Because He certainly does not consider it 'bad'. Otherwise, we would abolish it. Remember, anything Jesus does not abolish, means He at least allows, at minimum.


http://biblehub.com/romans/2-11.htm

11 For God does not show favoritism."

Clearly this is false, demonstrated from your other provided verses.

http://biblehub.com/romans/2-11.htm

See, something happened when Christ came, and a very huge change in the overall situation for humanity.

Yes it did, yet another cult. But this time, the focus is based upon belief and repentance, rather than being judged upon your acts; which seems to raise quite a bit of contradiction in and of itself.... As Christians love to raise the moral argument.

http://biblehub.com/romans/2-11.htm

This new situation is often called the "New Covenant" -- it is not the same as the "Old Covenant". They are 2 different situations, and the rules were changed in profound ways, and more than just a couple of ways.

But slavery is still not considered a sin now is it

 

[cvanwey]

Involuntary slavery (and every other abuse also, all variations, A-Z) breaks this rule from Christ our Lord:

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

If it were THIS simple, why extrapolate all other said 'laws'? (i.e.) Don't murder, don't steal, etc...... We are going in circles here. You certainly would not need to extrapolate that being murdered or being stolen from is not voluntary There exists MANY 'laws' God applied, which appear obvious. And yet, He makes MANY provisions FOR slavery. Odd....

I'm not sure why you keep cleaving to this verse? This is certainly NOT a 'catch-all' phrase.

Where in the Bible does it speak about it being sin to take 'involuntary slaves'?

Again, slaves are not given the same rights as 'non-slaves' the second they were considered property by God Himself. Hence, God let's everyone know what slaves ARE allowed to do (i.e.) worship the Christian God, please their masters, get beaten, get inherited, and be considered property, ALL FOR LIFE.

Please stop mentioning this verse. It fails.

12“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. 13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

and...

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

Slaves are property. Hence, God must setup provisions as to what 'rights' slaves do have. Which is, they are allowed to worship God, work harder for their slave masters if their slave masters are believers, allowed to be beaten without protest, are considered property, and can be inherited, all for life. Unless, again, if you are a Jewish male whom did not start a family while enslaved.

 

[Halbhh]

slavery is allowed, by God, in all forms.

No, because involuntary slavery, or anything you'd not want others to do to you...

...is always wrong, by Matthew 7:12.

 

[cvanwey]

It's not possible to imagine a servant, slave, indentured servant, employee, child, etc. doesn't have equal rights under this:

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

There's no wiggle room there to pretend some whatever group of people, slaves, illegal immigrants, you-name-it aren't fully equal together with all other Christians.

As someone else stated, this is becoming 'Chinese water torture'. You are not addressing practically anything I state. I'm playing 'tit for tat', but getting no 'tat'.

You failed to answer the first one of six sufficiently, so I leave it up there (8th request and counting)....

1. If you are a Jew, you are not to be enslaved for life. But if you are not a Jew, you can be enslaved for life. If we are 'all one in' with Christ, why the Jewish favoritism? Seems as though Jesus is fond of the flesh, Jewish flesh specifically.

2. God allows slavery then, now, and forever. Any form of slavery is permissible, as slavery is not well defined. God does not consider slavery a sin.

3. Your notion of progressive revelation seems odd. God allows slavery, and does not consider it sin. So why then is there a need for it to later be changed or abolished?

4. God would know people use all forms of slavery. And yet, God never clarifies that any of such slavery is 'wrong.' If God knows humans are either dumb, or self serving, why would God not clarify what type of slavery is not permissible?

5. In affect, what (you) are saying, is that it is the Christians which don't like slavery... Why does Jesus not agree wholeheartedly? Why is it a 'feather in your cap' moment that America abolished slavery, when Jesus could care less if it's abolished? Jesus allows for it.

6. Slaves are considered property (less-than-human). Slave owners are to do with their slaves what they will, as instructed by the NT.