The KJVO Myth Has NO Scriptural support!

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createdtoworship

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I think there is a huge misunderstanding of inspiration in general.

I think the biggest misconception is that the writers were "inspired". I don't think that is correct. I believe the Scriptures teach that the "words" themselves are inspired. If you wish to know why I have such a position, I would be happy to give a brief (sort of) answer.
The original autographs are what is inspired, not the writers. Some of the writers wrote noncanonical works as well, (gospel of peter for example). But my main problem with modern translations is the questionable manuscripts, some of the sinaiticus for example are whiter than other leaves, showing a newer age, and huge portions of scripture is missing from modern translations. I have posted a picture before but here it is again:

tWnmD4.jpg
 
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Dr. Jack

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Hi jack,

No, I'm not going to go into all that detail. If you're a KJVO'er, then you know what the issues are. If you don't, then that's just as good and we can go with my understanding of why God gave unto mankind His Scriptures and leave it at that. That is, that God gave us His Scriptures to know Him. To know and understand all that He has done and all that He is doing. To know that He has provided a way that we might return to righteousness in His sight through the sacrifice of His Son that the Scriptures declare was prepared before the foundations of the world were set in place. So, none of this is a surprise to God, but He wants us to love Him and to understand His purpose in creating us. That He might have an eternal relationship with a creature of His creating that He loves. He will have that relationship after His judgment upon the earth.

The Scriptures were written that we might know that and come to understand and know and love Him who has created all things. So long as any good translation of His Scriptures gives us that understanding and knowledge, then that translation is a good translation for the purposes for which God gave unto mankind His Scriptures. I'm not interested in arguing over this word or that word that a particular translator may have chosen to use to translate whatever we find to be the best reasonable copies. I'm not interested in arguing over this translation is missing this verse or that one another verse. I have read a good half dozen different translations and so far, while I'm not particularly fond of some and some do go further than I would allow, I have yet to find a one that doesn't succeed in accomplishing the task for which God sent unto mankind His words.

Now, you or someone else may be particularly attracted to the KJ translation and that's fine with me. However, don't just be readers and hearers of the Scriptures, but take what they say, with all the different words and few missing verses and do what they tell you to do!

I'll ask you, have you found a translation that doesn't confirm that God has made all things? Have you found a translation that doesn't seem to be clear that man is a sinner? Have you found a translation that doesn't explain clearly what God's offer is to forgive us our sin? Have you found any translation that doesn't make it absolutely perfectly clear that Jesus is that answer? Have you found any translation that doesn't tell you, that in the end, God is going to call all mankind to account and that there will be a judgment of all men? Have you found any translation that doesn't make it clear to you that if anyone's name is not found in the Lamb's book of Life, they will not escape God's wrath?

God bless,
In Christ, ted
Hello again Ted,

Just a few things ...

1) Yes, I know what the issues are, (I've been teaching them for years).
2) I of course cannot force you to discuss what you have no desire to discuss; but I find it ironic that on one hand you use an argument against the KJVOnly position; while simultaneously acknowledging that that very argument bears no merit!
3) I also find it ironic that you obviously know at least some of the issues, take a stand against the KJVOnly position; but seem to have a lukewarm perspective of what the "Word of God" is.

Now before you think I'm speaking in unfairness, may I remind you that Paul told both Timothy and Titus the value of sound doctrine. Part of sound doctrine ii the inspiration, inerrancy, and preservation of Scripture.

Depending on the version of Bible you read, there are entire verses not in some texts. This, according to your own words above, is of little importance to you. The real question is, Is your position a Scriptural position?

4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deuteronomy

30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs

22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation

You may say that the Revelation text only refers to the book of the Revelation, but you would still have to deal with the other two texts.

138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm

It doesn't appear that God has the same view towards a few missing words that you do.
 
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1watchman

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I will avoid debate, but for me I use the KJV, as in the Scofield Study Edition of KJV, which uses margin notes and paragraph commentaries in sections, to correct any of the minor errors. ALL translations and versions will have some errors, for no man or groups of men are perfect; and over 300--400 years of use and study, the KJV Bible has been found to be true to "all the counsel of God". I find the truth in my KJV study edition to show how errors have occurred. I have an excellent paper showing why the KJV has proved to be most reliable ---if one wishes to write me about it. Reading some of the papers on all the various modern versions, one can see that some versions are grossly failing ---like one which omits the Name of the Lord Jesus numerous times. Contact Bible Truth Publishers, Addison, IL if one desires to see sound study books. Look up always and seek God's mind and leading!
 
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Dr. Jack

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I will avoid debate, but for me I use the KJV, as in the Scofield Study Edition of KJV, which uses margin notes and paragraph commentaries in sections, to correct any of the minor errors. ALL translations and versions will have some errors, for no man or groups of men are perfect; and over 300--400 years of use and study, the KJV Bible has been found to be true to "all the counsel of God". I find the truth in my KJV study edition to show how errors have occurred. I have an excellent paper showing why the KJV has proved to be most reliable ---if one wishes to write me about it. Reading some of the papers on all the various modern versions, one can see that some versions are grossly failing ---like one which omits the Name of the Lord Jesus numerous times. Contact Bible Truth Publishers, Addison, IL if one desires to see sound study books. Look up always and seek God's mind and leading!
Hello Watchman,
I appreciate your sincerity, but I must address the one argument you presented: "for no man or groups of men are perfect". You are correct sir, no man or groups of men are perfect. But with that being said, may I remind you that God did in fact use imperfect men to write His perfect words. Preservation of the Scriptures isn't about the will, power, or sinfulness of man; it is about the will, power, and holiness of God.

In previous comments I have given Scriptures that show what God commanded man, concerning His words. But God knows the weaknesses of man, and would never place in man need to preserve His words any more than He places in man the need to preserve our own salvation. God, and God alone is up to both of those tasks.
 
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Dr. Jack

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The original autographs are what is inspired, not the writers. Some of the writers wrote noncanonical works as well, (gospel of peter for example). But my main problem with modern translations is the questionable manuscripts, some of the sinaiticus for example are whiter than other leaves, showing a newer age, and huge portions of scripture is missing from modern translations. I have posted a picture before but here it is again:

tWnmD4.jpg
Have you heard of derivative derivative inspiration?
 
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miamited

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Hi jack,

Thanks for your reply. You responded on several matters and I'll try to put forth my understanding of each one. Your first response was:
Yes, I know what the issues are, (I've been teaching them for years).
I rather suspected that and so I knew I didn't really need to enumerate every little argument that the KJVO'ers use. It gets rather tiring and it's generally all about trying to prove a thing that can't be proven. We don't have any of the original MSS and so we can't any of us say with any definitive proof that a translation is or isn't corrupt as compared to the original MSS. All we can do, either of us, is to put our best argument out there and go for it.

You then responded:
I of course cannot force you to discuss what you have no desire to discuss; but I find it ironic that on one hand you use an argument against the KJVOnly position; while simultaneously acknowledging that that very argument bears no merit!

I'm not exactly clear on what it is that you're referring to of an argument that I use against KJVO and then simultaneously acknowledge that the argument bears no merit. If I believe that an argument is false, then it would not, by nature of my understanding that it is false, be an argument that I would believe bears merit. That seems to be what you're saying, but please correct my ignorance if I'm wrong. I can't imagine anyone arguing against a position that is told something that they believe to be false, allowing whatever that something is to be a matter of merit. For them, it's false.

The earth is a square cube. Well, I don't believe that and any such argument that the earth is a square cube would not have any merit with me.

You then responded:
I also find it ironic that you obviously know at least some of the issues, take a stand against the KJVOnly position; but seem to have a lukewarm perspective of what the "Word of God" is.

I'm going to allow that to be a personal relevance issue. I believe the original MSS were inspired by the Holy Spirit of God to the minds of the men who were writing the words down. I believe that all of the original MSS were inspired and that their inclusion into the Scriptures that we hold in our hands today, as best we have them, has been directed by that one and same Spirit of God. That Enoch, while it may or may not have been inspired writing, is not what the Spirit of God has directed for modern man to include in God's word.

You make the claim that you see in me a 'lukewarm perspective' of the Scriptures. I disagree. I believe that I understand the 'why' God gave unto mankind the Scriptures. That it wasn't for us to quibble and argue over word points and verse inclusion or exclusion. It was given to us, all inspired by the Holy Spirit, so that any thinking man could read them and come to the knowledge of the truth. I don't believe that God gave us His Scriptures so that we would argue over the concise and perfect translation. It would seem to me that if He had, then He would have preserved the original MSS for us. Surely, God doesn't hold us accountable for things that we cannot possibly know the truth of, as regards whether or not a particular writer of a particular pieces of Scripture wrote those exact words. God is wiser than you or I and He knows the only way we could possibly prove such a position is to have the original MSS to compare.

But He didn't. So, I have to ask myself why? Why Father, if it is important that we know every word as it was originally penned, did you not preserve those words for us? I believe the answer to be that God isn't as concerned with us knowing that we have every last word of the Scriptures as they were written down, but that we understand His desire for us despite our not knowing these minutiae. As I said earlier, it is my firm and faithful conviction that what God wants us to glean from the Scriptures is who God is, why we are here, and what He is expecting of us. Personally, I don't find that any of the fairly accurate translations fail at that point.

Now, maybe you're right and the only ones who will be saved are those who held to only reading and studying and teaching from the KJ translation. I don't believe so, but I'll allow that there is always that possibility. If that's the case, then I will stand condemned because I didn't come to confess Jesus as my Lord and Savior and understand all that He did for me that I might have eternal life with God, through the KJ translation.

If, on the other hand, your position is that, well, uh, gosh...sure, anyone can be saved by declaring faith in Jesus no matter how they came to know and understand that truth, then ultimately, what's the point? As I say, for me and my experience, there are a lot of good translations that make it crystal clear what God is asking of us.

If you find that to be a 'lukewarm perspective' of the Scriptures, then that's what it will have to be for you.

Finally you responded:
Depending on the version of Bible you read, there are entire verses not in some texts. This, according to your own words above, is of little importance to you. The real question is, Is your position a Scriptural position?

That's right. I agree that there are translations that do have some verses that others don't have. However, as I've explained at length, the ability to prove one over another is beyond our abilities with the evidence that God has left us. Therefore, I'm not convinced that brothers arguing over which translation is more accurate, is a work that God has enjoined us to. You take whatever good translation you'd like to use and go out and show someone else the truth of God that they might also enjoy what you have. That was Jesus' command to us. Go forth into all the nations, teaching them all that I have commanded you, (He didn't even speak of all the thousand pages of Scriptures, he stopped with all that he has commanded his disciples). Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Spirit and then you will be my disciples.

BTW, if you have a translation that doesn't make that point, no matter the words that are used, then that would be an unreliable translation.

You might remember Jesus speaking to the Pharisees and scribes and telling them at one point that they strain out a gnat, but choke on a camel. I'd encourage you to go and find out what Jesus meant when he told them that. Are we straining at gnats when we argue the very words of Scripture that we have absolutely no way of knowing the truth, but swallowing a camel when we allow God's word to not be used for the purpose for which God sent it?

Those are my thoughts on your responses.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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Dr. Jack

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Hi jack,

Thanks for your reply. You responded on several matters and I'll try to put forth my understanding of each one. Your first response was:

I rather suspected that and so I knew I didn't really need to enumerate every little argument that the KJVO'ers use. It gets rather tiring and it's generally all about trying to prove a thing that can't be proven. We don't have any of the original MSS and so we can't any of us say with any definitive proof that a translation is or isn't corrupt as compared to the original MSS. All we can do, either of us, is to put our best argument out there and go for it.

You then responded:


I'm not exactly clear on what it is that you're referring to of an argument that I use against KJVO and then simultaneously acknowledge that the argument bears no merit. If I believe that an argument is false, then it would not, by nature of my understanding that it is false, be an argument that I would believe bears merit. That seems to be what you're saying, but please correct my ignorance if I'm wrong. I can't imagine anyone arguing against a position that is told something that they believe to be false, allowing whatever that something is to be a matter of merit. For them, it's false.

The earth is a square cube. Well, I don't believe that and any such argument that the earth is a square cube would not have any merit with me.

You then responded:


I'm going to allow that to be a personal relevance issue. I believe the original MSS were inspired by the Holy Spirit of God to the minds of the men who were writing the words down. I believe that all of the original MSS were inspired and that their inclusion into the Scriptures that we hold in our hands today, as best we have them, has been directed by that one and same Spirit of God. That Enoch, while it may or may not have been inspired writing, is not what the Spirit of God has directed for modern man to include in God's word.

You make the claim that you see in me a 'lukewarm perspective' of the Scriptures. I disagree. I believe that I understand the 'why' God gave unto mankind the Scriptures. That it wasn't for us to quibble and argue over word points and verse inclusion or exclusion. It was given to us, all inspired by the Holy Spirit, so that any thinking man could read them and come to the knowledge of the truth. I don't believe that God gave us His Scriptures so that we would argue over the concise and perfect translation. It would seem to me that if He had, then He would have preserved the original MSS for us. Surely, God doesn't hold us accountable for things that we cannot possibly know the truth of, as regards whether or not a particular writer of a particular pieces of Scripture wrote those exact words. God is wiser than you or I and He knows the only way we could possibly prove such a position is to have the original MSS to compare.

But He didn't. So, I have to ask myself why? Why Father, if it is important that we know every word as it was originally penned, did you not preserve those words for us? I believe the answer to be that God isn't as concerned with us knowing that we have every last word of the Scriptures as they were written down, but that we understand His desire for us despite our not knowing these minutiae. As I said earlier, it is my firm and faithful conviction that what God wants us to glean from the Scriptures is who God is, why we are here, and what He is expecting of us. Personally, I don't find that any of the fairly accurate translations fail at that point.

Now, maybe you're right and the only ones who will be saved are those who held to only reading and studying and teaching from the KJ translation. I don't believe so, but I'll allow that there is always that possibility. If that's the case, then I will stand condemned because I didn't come to confess Jesus as my Lord and Savior and understand all that He did for me that I might have eternal life with God, through the KJ translation.

If, on the other hand, your position is that, well, uh, gosh...sure, anyone can be saved by declaring faith in Jesus no matter how they came to know and understand that truth, then ultimately, what's the point? As I say, for me and my experience, there are a lot of good translations that make it crystal clear what God is asking of us.

If you find that to be a 'lukewarm perspective' of the Scriptures, then that's what it will have to be for you.

Finally you responded:


That's right. I agree that there are translations that do have some verses that others don't have. However, as I've explained at length, the ability to prove one over another is beyond our abilities with the evidence that God has left us. Therefore, I'm not convinced that brothers arguing over which translation is more accurate, is a work that God has enjoined us to. You take whatever good translation you'd like to use and go out and show someone else the truth of God that they might also enjoy what you have. That was Jesus' command to us. Go forth into all the nations, teaching them all that I have commanded you, (He didn't even speak of all the thousand pages of Scriptures, he stopped with all that he has commanded his disciples). Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Spirit and then you will be my disciples.

BTW, if you have a translation that doesn't make that point, no matter the words that are used, then that would be an unreliable translation.

You might remember Jesus speaking to the Pharisees and scribes and telling them at one point that they strain out a gnat, but choke on a camel. I'd encourage you to go and find out what Jesus meant when he told them that. Are we straining at gnats when we argue the very words of Scripture that we have absolutely no way of knowing the truth, but swallowing a camel when we allow God's word to not be used for the purpose for which God sent it?

Those are my thoughts on your responses.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
Hi again Ted, and thanks for the response.

The following is what I was referring to

miamited said: ↑

However, two things that I will concede. First, without the original, we can't really be sure that we have any of the words of the new covenant Scriptures correct other than in their agreement with one another.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Then I replied ...

Hello Ted,

Rather than deal with all of the comment, please allow me to reply to this single statement.

In the days of our Lord, not a single scroll of Scripture was original; yet, Jesus never questioned their authenticity. In the days of the early church, copies of Paul's letters had already been circulating throughout the region north of the Mediterranean, yet Paul gives no mention that the copies of his epistles were not authentic.

No, we do not have the originals, but the cohesiveness of the Byzantine texts is remarkable. There is no written work that has the supporting text under it, as does the Scripture.

What do you think?

To which you replied ...

Hi jack,

I agree with all that you've said and I've made that argument myself to those who think that there are errors in the old covenant. However, most of the KJVO's don't really have a lot of argument against what is found in the old covenant. The majority of their complaints are regarding the new covenant. I think that most theologians agree that the old covenant was pretty well settled during the intertestimental period.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

The issue is simply this, you keep saying that we don't have the "originals" as a proof text as to what the Scripture should say, But Jesus Himself used copies of the Scriptures, and never once questioned a single words authenticity ... So since, (not if), Jesus never questioned the authenticity of copies, why should we?

The premise you are asking to be met (collaboration of the originals), was never taught until the introduction of Textual Criticism in the 1700's when the rules of Textual Criticism were first developed. You see Ted, the inerrancy of Scripture was a sound Bible teaching until Textual Criticism casted a doubt upon the authenticity of Scripture in the 1700's, and placed what they knew to no longer exist (the originals), as the only standard of absolute knowledge of inerrancy. Prior to that, like salvation, it was a matter of faith.

Now I must be clear on another issue; I am NOT the 'brand' of KJVOnly that says one must be saved using the KJ ... I try my best to not be an idiot!

My point is, since (not if) God commanded us to not add to, or diminish from His words, He takes the matter rather seriously ...

30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Proverbs

Now Ted, again, since, (not if) every word of God is pure ... isn't it important that we actually have all the words there, in the Bible?

Seriously, if God would not have told us that every word is true, your position would have merit, but God did tell us, so why would we settle for less?
 
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createdtoworship

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Have you heard of derivative derivative inspiration?
I don't adhere to derivative inspiration, I adhere to verbal plenary forms of inspiration, applicable only to the original autographs.
 
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Dr. Jack

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I don't adhere to derivative inspiration, I adhere to verbal plenary forms of inspiration, applicable only to the original autographs.
That is interesting. How then do you reconcile the fact that Jesus when reading from the OT in the Synagogue, gave it the authenticity of the original, they only had copies.

Remember, verbal plenary has to do with the verbal inspiration of all Scripture in the autographs as you say, but since Jesus gave authenticity to the copies He used, that would require derivative inspiration. (The copies were derived from the autographs, which were of course inspired.)
 
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createdtoworship

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That is interesting. How then do you reconcile the fact that Jesus when reading from the OT in the Synagogue, gave it the authenticity of the original, they only had copies.

Remember, verbal plenary has to do with the verbal inspiration of all Scripture in the autographs as you say, but since Jesus gave authenticity to the copies He used, that would require derivative inspiration. (The copies were derived from the autographs, which were of course inspired.)
You would have quote the text. Then I perhaps could read it for myself and answer you.
 
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createdtoworship

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That is interesting. How then do you reconcile the fact that Jesus when reading from the OT in the Synagogue, gave it the authenticity of the original, they only had copies.

Remember, verbal plenary has to do with the verbal inspiration of all Scripture in the autographs as you say, but since Jesus gave authenticity to the copies He used, that would require derivative inspiration. (The copies were derived from the autographs, which were of course inspired.)
so your saying that God himself did scribal errors such as a "slip of the pen?"

I doubt it.

I bet the verse you are talking about is not about the inspiration we are talking about, but rather a generalized statement about God preserving His word to every generation through men and women who were scribes. But He would not cause such things as a slip of the pen, or spelling or grammatical mistakes. No, God inspired every jot and tittle of the original only. While stepping back and indirectly guiding and preserving the text throughout all generations.
 
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Dr. Jack

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so your saying the God himself did scribal errors such as a "slip of the pen?"

I doubt it.

I bet the verse you are talking about is not about the inspiration we are talking about, but rather a generalized statement about God preserving His word to every generation through men and women who were scribes. But He would not cause such things as a slip of the pen, or spelling or grammatical mistakes. No God inspired every jot and tittle of the original only.
I am saying nothing about "scribal errors", and that God caused them.

The subject is inspiration. I am quite certain you know what the Greek text says, as well as what it literally means. God breathed the actual words of Scripture to men in a way that they could write His words perfectly.

Let's pretend (for simplicity's sake) that the Holy Spirit had Paul write "see Dick run". Now, what would the purpose of the words, "see Dick run"? What I'm asking you, is what is the purpose of "inspiration"?

Here is why I am asking the question: If only the original autographs had a special, or specific quality because of inspiration, what then would be the purpose of any copies?

You see, if we say only the "original autographs" are inspired, (and that would be true), are the copies made that read, "see Dick run" have less quality than the original autographs; and if so, what "quality" do the copies lack, that the originals do not lack?

The Scriptures are full of references that give internal witness of the power of the Scriptures, even though, even in the days of Jesus, there were no originals, only copies.

In Luke 4:16-21, Jesus reads from Isaiah and says, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears".

Did the copy of Isaiah that Jesus read in the Synagogue contain the same "quality" as the "original"? Or did it lack some quality of the "original"? And if it lacked a particular quality of the original, what quality did it lack?
 
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robycop3

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You gest of what you wrote above (the OP) is that 1) the KJVOnly position did not exist prior to 1930, and 2) the KJVOnly position came out of the SDA movement.

I offer you an excerpt from Dr. Thomas Cassidy's work, (now retired), from the following link:

Textual Criticism Fact and Fiction - Thomas Cassidy

"My education started along similar lines, attending Central Baptist Theological Seminary in Minneapolis, Minnesota, a school originally founded by the late great W. B. Riley (as Northwestern Baptist Seminary), and continued by a former Northern Baptist pastor, Dr. Richard V. Clearwaters, who was one of the first to come out of the old convention and establish an independent church. W. B. Riley stated in his book "The Menace of Modernism" (New York: Christian Alliance, 1917), the Modernist believes the Bible's "inspiration exists only in its ability to inspire...its interpretation is a matter of mental conscience." Dr. Riley goes on to say there were a group of men whom he describes as the "old conception," who believed the Authorized Version or King James Bible (hereafter AV) was inerrant. He states on page 11, "On this point we are inclined to think that, even unto comparatively recent years, such a theory has been entertained." He then ascribes this belief to ignorance, and says, "I think it would be accepted without fear of successful controversy that such fogies in Biblical knowledge are few, and their funerals are nigh at hand." Actually there are quite a few of us, and I for one am feeling just fine, thank you. Dr. Riley then erroneously states the AV inerrancy position by saying on page 13, "To claim, therefore, inerrancy for the King James Version...is to claim inerrancy for men who never professed it for themselves..." No one, that I am aware of, is claiming inerrancy for men, but only for the words of God. This position is, I believe, a straw man, attempting to ascribe to us something we do not believe, and then condemn us for believing what they claim we believe. I believe the AV is vested with derivative inspiration, due to its having been carefully translated from the inspired words of the original language texts contained in the Traditional Masoretic (Bomberg's Second Rabbinic Bible, as edited by Rabbi Abraham Ben Chayyim), and the Traditional Greek (Byzantine or TR) text. I consider the Stuttgartensia and Alexandrian (WH) texts, from which all modern bibles are translated, to be corrupt. This is, I believe, easily demonstrated by the egregious errors contained in the versions translated from them. If we believe the AV has derivative inspiration, we must remember, where inspiration (even derivative inspiration) goes, inerrancy (also derivative) must, of logical necessity, follow. If inerrancy does not follow inspiration, we produce the absurdity of an "inspired" error! I believe the AV is inspired and inerrant because the preserved original language manuscripts from which it is derived are both inspired and inerrant, when correctly copied, which virtually all of the textual evidence suggests is assuredly the case. The charge of errors in the AV is an unfounded charge. The so-called errors are usually the result of an insufficient knowledge of the etymology of the English words used by the translators. Just a little knowledge of the English language clears up a great number of these so-called errors. There are only about 268 words in the A.V. that are not currently used in English (wot, wist, etc), or have changed meaning (Easter referred to the pagan celebrations clustered around the vernal equinox in 1611, roughly the same time as the Jewish Passover, but now refers either to Resurrection Sunday, or a secular holiday involving an egg laying rabbit(?)). I believe it is easier (and safer) to educate God's people as to the changes in English than to tamper with the Bible.

So then, it seems clear to me that Dr. Riley believed there were still a few of the "old conception" men in his day that still believed in an inerrant AV, that they were mostly old men, and were soon to pass away. If these men were old men when Riley wrote his book, they must have dated to at least the latter part of the 19th century. Over one hundred years ago, a group of "old conception" men existed who still believed in the inerrancy of the AV. This appears to indicate the "King James Only" position is not of recent origin.

Thus we can see, in Riley's day, a group of men still existed who believed, "(1) the Bible was finished in heaven and handed down, (2) the King James Version was absolutely inerrant, and (3) its literal acceptance was alone correct." (Page nine of Riley's book as quoted by Dr. George W. Dollar in his book "History of Fundamentalism in America", Page 114) We can easily see that W. B. Riley (1861 - 1947), understood this group of men to believe exactly as the "King James Only" crowd does today, and believed it long before any of the contemporary antagonists were born! The challenge of one scoffer to "Name one person who believed in the inspiration or inerrancy of the King James Version prior to 1950 and I'll send you $1000", has just been answered (please send the money to me at the address in the front of this book!)."

"The Menace of Modernism" was published in 1913, and as Dr. Cassidy wrote, it was an "old conception" when this book was published.

You were saying?

I have read Dr. Riley's book, and I often corresponded with Dr. Cassidy on the "Baptist Board" site. Sadly, Dr. Cassidy passed away in
You gest of what you wrote above (the OP) is that 1) the KJVOnly position did not exist prior to 1930, and 2) the KJVOnly position came out of the SDA movement.

I offer you an excerpt from Dr. Thomas Cassidy's work, (now retired), from the following link:

Textual Criticism Fact and Fiction - Thomas Cassidy

"My education started along similar lines, attending Central Baptist Theological Seminary in Minneapolis, Minnesota, a school originally founded by the late great W. B. Riley (as Northwestern Baptist Seminary), and continued by a former Northern Baptist pastor, Dr. Richard V. Clearwaters, who was one of the first to come out of the old convention and establish an independent church. W. B. Riley stated in his book "The Menace of Modernism" (New York: Christian Alliance, 1917), the Modernist believes the Bible's "inspiration exists only in its ability to inspire...its interpretation is a matter of mental conscience." Dr. Riley goes on to say there were a group of men whom he describes as the "old conception," who believed the Authorized Version or King James Bible (hereafter AV) was inerrant. He states on page 11, "On this point we are inclined to think that, even unto comparatively recent years, such a theory has been entertained." He then ascribes this belief to ignorance, and says, "I think it would be accepted without fear of successful controversy that such fogies in Biblical knowledge are few, and their funerals are nigh at hand." Actually there are quite a few of us, and I for one am feeling just fine, thank you. Dr. Riley then erroneously states the AV inerrancy position by saying on page 13, "To claim, therefore, inerrancy for the King James Version...is to claim inerrancy for men who never professed it for themselves..." No one, that I am aware of, is claiming inerrancy for men, but only for the words of God. This position is, I believe, a straw man, attempting to ascribe to us something we do not believe, and then condemn us for believing what they claim we believe. I believe the AV is vested with derivative inspiration, due to its having been carefully translated from the inspired words of the original language texts contained in the Traditional Masoretic (Bomberg's Second Rabbinic Bible, as edited by Rabbi Abraham Ben Chayyim), and the Traditional Greek (Byzantine or TR) text. I consider the Stuttgartensia and Alexandrian (WH) texts, from which all modern bibles are translated, to be corrupt. This is, I believe, easily demonstrated by the egregious errors contained in the versions translated from them. If we believe the AV has derivative inspiration, we must remember, where inspiration (even derivative inspiration) goes, inerrancy (also derivative) must, of logical necessity, follow. If inerrancy does not follow inspiration, we produce the absurdity of an "inspired" error! I believe the AV is inspired and inerrant because the preserved original language manuscripts from which it is derived are both inspired and inerrant, when correctly copied, which virtually all of the textual evidence suggests is assuredly the case. The charge of errors in the AV is an unfounded charge. The so-called errors are usually the result of an insufficient knowledge of the etymology of the English words used by the translators. Just a little knowledge of the English language clears up a great number of these so-called errors. There are only about 268 words in the A.V. that are not currently used in English (wot, wist, etc), or have changed meaning (Easter referred to the pagan celebrations clustered around the vernal equinox in 1611, roughly the same time as the Jewish Passover, but now refers either to Resurrection Sunday, or a secular holiday involving an egg laying rabbit(?)). I believe it is easier (and safer) to educate God's people as to the changes in English than to tamper with the Bible.

So then, it seems clear to me that Dr. Riley believed there were still a few of the "old conception" men in his day that still believed in an inerrant AV, that they were mostly old men, and were soon to pass away. If these men were old men when Riley wrote his book, they must have dated to at least the latter part of the 19th century. Over one hundred years ago, a group of "old conception" men existed who still believed in the inerrancy of the AV. This appears to indicate the "King James Only" position is not of recent origin.

Thus we can see, in Riley's day, a group of men still existed who believed, "(1) the Bible was finished in heaven and handed down, (2) the King James Version was absolutely inerrant, and (3) its literal acceptance was alone correct." (Page nine of Riley's book as quoted by Dr. George W. Dollar in his book "History of Fundamentalism in America", Page 114) We can easily see that W. B. Riley (1861 - 1947), understood this group of men to believe exactly as the "King James Only" crowd does today, and believed it long before any of the contemporary antagonists were born! The challenge of one scoffer to "Name one person who believed in the inspiration or inerrancy of the King James Version prior to 1950 and I'll send you $1000", has just been answered (please send the money to me at the address in the front of this book!)."

"The Menace of Modernism" was published in 1913, and as Dr. Cassidy wrote, it was an "old conception" when this book was published.

You were saying?
I was saying that the title of the little article I wrote says the CURRENT KJVO myth.
I read Dr. Riley's book several years back, & I often corresponded with Dr. Cassidy on the "Baptist Board" site. Sadly, Doc Cas passed aeay in February of this year.

I don't doubt there were KJVOs in 1612. However, there wasn't a whole genre of literature devoted to the KJVO myth until after 1930. And the dependence of current KJVO literature upon those first three modern books about it is shown by the fact that most of it uses the very same material found in those first books. A prime example is the mention of the false "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie" in the majority of current KJVO writings.

And my whole point is that there's simply NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for KJVO or any other "One-Version-Onlyism". God is not limited in how He may choose to present His word to man, and neither should we be limited in taking advantage of all that He has provided for us.
 
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createdtoworship

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I am saying nothing about "scribal errors", and that God caused them.

The subject is inspiration. I am quite certain you know what the Greek text says, as well as what it literally means. God breathed the actual words of Scripture to men in a way that they could write His words perfectly.

Let's pretend (for simplicity's sake) that the Holy Spirit had Paul write "see Dick run". Now, what would the purpose of the words, "see Dick run"? What I'm asking you, is what is the purpose of "inspiration"?

Here is why I am asking the question: If only the original autographs had a special, or specific quality because of inspiration, what then would be the purpose of any copies?

You see, if we say only the "original autographs" are inspired, (and that would be true), are the copies made that read, "see Dick run" have less quality than the original autographs; and if so, what "quality" do the copies lack, that the originals do not lack?

The Scriptures are full of references that give internal witness of the power of the Scriptures, even though, even in the days of Jesus, there were no originals, only copies.

In Luke 4:16-21, Jesus reads from Isaiah and says, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears".

Did the copy of Isaiah that Jesus read in the Synagogue contain the same "quality" as the "original"? Or did it lack some quality of the "original"? And if it lacked a particular quality of the original, what quality did it lack?
but you still have a problem of the slip of the pen. If God inspired all the copies, than God made a mistake. Simply put. He would not cause such things as a slip of the pen, or spelling or grammatical mistakes. No, God inspired every jot and tittle of the original only. While stepping back and indirectly guiding and preserving the text throughout all generations (He did not directly inspire all the copies). Because God does not do mistakes. In conclusion if it is ok for God to create scribal errors, then how are we to know the original does not have scribal errors? There is nothing about this theory that works in my mind, logically.
 
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Dr. Jack

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I have read Dr. Riley's book, and I often corresponded with Dr. Cassidy on the "Baptist Board" site. Sadly, Dr. Cassidy passed away in

I was saying that the title of the little article I wrote says the CURRENT KJVO myth.
I read Dr. Riley's book several years back, & I often corresponded with Dr. Cassidy on the "Baptist Board" site. Sadly, Doc Cas passed aeay in February of this year.

I don't doubt there were KJVOs in 1612. However, there wasn't a whole genre of literature devoted to the KJVO myth until after 1930. And the dependence of current KJVO literature upon those first three modern books about it is shown by the fact that most of it uses the very same material found in those first books. A prime example is the mention of the false "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie" in the majority of current KJVO writings.

And my whole point is that there's simply NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for KJVO or any other "One-Version-Onlyism". God is not limited in how He may choose to present His word to man, and neither should we be limited in taking advantage of all that He has provided for us.
Since you have no doubt there were KJVOnly believers in 1612, other than the fact that at that time there was no "whole genre of literature devoted to the KJVO" position, what was the difference between the former "KJVOnly" position, and the "current KJVOnly" position?

Exactly what doctrine, belief, or definitive thing, separated the former, from the current KJVOnly position?
 
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robycop3

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but you still have a problem of the slip of the pen. If God inspired all the copies, than God made a mistake. Simply put. He would not cause such things as a slip of the pen, or spelling or grammatical mistakes. No, God inspired every jot and tittle of the original only. While stepping back and indirectly guiding and preserving the text throughout all generations (He did not directly inspire all the copies). Because God does not do mistakes. In conclusion if it is ok for God to create scribal errors, then how are we to know the original does not have scribal errors? There is nothing about this theory that works in my mind, logically.

Don't forget that Jesus' quotes of Old Testament Scripture are bettwe matches to the Septuagint than they are to the Ben Chayyim text. I realize Jesus has full authority to change Scriptures, but He's also our example. While we don't have HIS authority, of course, I don't believe that we are bound to EXACT ORIGINAL words in every case, long as the MEANING isn't changed.. And I believe God modified some Scriptures to fit current language in given times. We know ancient Hebrew is not the same hebrew in use in Jesus' day, nor now.
 
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robycop3

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Since you have no doubt there were KJVOnly believers in 1612, other than the fact that at that time there was no "whole genre of literature devoted to the KJVO" position, what was the difference between the former "KJVOnly" position, and the "current KJVOnly" position?

Exactly what doctrine, belief, or definitive thing, separated the former, from the current KJVOnly position?

To answer your question - The current position claims that Psalm 12:6-7 are "proof" verses that the KJVO myth is in Scripture. Now, I know Dr. Wilkinson didn't invent that idea, but he put it into his book, & almost all subsequent KJVO writings have copied it. Plus, the current KJVO myth attacks almost every newer English Bible version, usually without merit. The only gripe KJVOs have with the NKJV is "It aint the KJV".

The TRUTH is, there's absolutely NO Scriptural support whatsoever for KJVO, & that's why it's a myth. NO doctrine of faith/worship that's not found in Scripture, either directly, or by clear implication, is true. Thus, KJVO is false, and without any authrrity from GOD to be either believed or taught.
 
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Don't forget that Jesus' quotes of Old Testament Scripture are bettwe matches to the Septuagint than they are to the Ben Chayyim text. I realize Jesus has full authority to change Scriptures, but He's also our example. While we don't have HIS authority, of course, I don't believe that we are bound to EXACT ORIGINAL words in every case, long as the MEANING isn't changed.. And I believe God modified some Scriptures to fit current language in given times. We know ancient Hebrew is not the same hebrew in use in Jesus' day, nor now.
of course they would match the septuagint, because it's greek. Greek will always match greek better. But the septuigint is not the text most people view as a source for the Bible. It is more considered a lexical aide.
 
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