Universal Salvation aka Origen's Apocatastasis

[Pavel Mosko]

Hi there, the Hell thread that was posted got me to thinking a lot about something I've seen a lot over the last 16 years the great popularity of Universal Salvation not just with many liberal Protestants, but I've seen quite a few Eastern Orthodox that are really in favor of in spite of the fact that there Church is suppose to be against it! (see THE ANATHEMAS AGAINST ORIGEN that are in the middle of the following article)

The School of Alexandria - Origen - Ch 4 - Origen and Origenism


So I was curious:

1) If you people have witnessed this and what you think about it?

2) I heard a long time ago that Severus of Antioch has some kind of dogmatic position on the topic for Oriental Orthodox. Is that true and do you have other kinds of information on this general issue?

Thanks!

 

[Silverback]

Hi there, the Hell thread that was posted got me to thinking a lot about something I've seen a lot over the last 16 years the great popularity of Universal Salvation not just with many liberal Protestants, but I've seen quite a few Eastern Orthodox that are really in favor of in spite of the fact that there Church is suppose to be against it! (see THE ANATHEMAS AGAINST ORIGEN that are in the middle of the following article)

The School of Alexandria - Origen - Ch 4 - Origen and Origenism


So I was curious:

1) If you people have witnessed this and what you think about it?

2) I heard a long time ago that Severus of Antioch has some kind of dogmatic position on the topic for Oriental Orthodox. Is that true and do you have other kinds of information on this general issue?

Thanks!

This may sound terrible, but I really believe universalism has become popular for two reasons.

-People refuse to acknowlege there sinful condit ion, and need for repentence

-People don't want to hear about it, and some churches are struggling financially, and they end up telling people what they want to hear out of fear of adversely effecting the offering.

That's how I see it.

 

[dzheremi]

While there is a very real sense by which any particular religion or sect is no more nor less than what its people do, I don't think you can take individuals, even quite a few of them, as more representative of their Church than its dogmatic pronouncements are at least meant to be.

That said, I have not seen this, and we of course confess the same Creed as the EO, which specifies that He will come again to judge the living and the dead...that would be a strange bit of phrasing if Universal Salvation would eventually nullify any judgment.

Though there are probably some finer points of Origen's thinking that I do not understand, and I of course cannot pretend to speak for any EO, I think we made the right choice in eventually rejecting this idea, as nice as it would be to believe in it. We can still hope that as few experience hell as is possible, but we ought not bet on it, since after all people bring themselves to it, and God does not subvert the free will that He Himself has given us.

 

[TheLostCoin]

While there is a very real sense by which any particular religion or sect is no more nor less than what its people do, I don't think you can take individuals, even quite a few of them, as more representative of their Church than its dogmatic pronouncements are at least meant to be.

That said, I have not seen this, and we of course confess the same Creed as the EO, which specifies that He will come again to judge the living and the dead...that would be a strange bit of phrasing if Universal Salvation would eventually nullify any judgment.

Though there are probably some finer points of Origen's thinking that I do not understand, and I of course cannot pretend to speak for any EO, I think we made the right choice in eventually rejecting this idea, as nice as it would be to believe in it. We can still hope that as few experience hell as is possible, but we ought not bet on it, since after all people bring themselves to it, and God does not subvert the free will that He Himself has given us.

Something worth mentioning:
In Eastern Orthodoxy, the 5th Ecumenical Council was unprecedented in the history of Christianity because it was the first time people were posthumously anathematized - not only was Theodore of Mopsuetia anathematized, who died before even the Chalcedonian Controversy, but Origen was as well, who died centuries before.

The 5th Ecumenical Council, in addition to anathematizing Origen, also anathematized (obviously) key elements of his theological explanations.

Has the Oriental Orthodox Church ever anathematized Origen and his theology? And in light of the fact that posthumous anathematization was a development in Chalcedonian Christianity, can the Oriental Orthodox Church even anathematize Origen?

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, but we excommunicated him during his lifetime. He was a sort of "Egyptian problem", I guess, as he was home-grown and was at one point the dean of the catechetical school at Alexandria, raising many disciples. See The School of Alexandria - Origen - Ch 4 - Origen and Origenism for more info, if you wish.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Yes, but we excommunicated him during his lifetime. He was a sort of "Egyptian problem", I guess, as he was home-grown and was at one point the dean of the catechetical school at Alexandria, raising many disciples. See The School of Alexandria - Origen - Ch 4 - Origen and Origenism for more info, if you wish.

hmmm in reading that article. My impression is not that he is excommunicated or anathemitized but rather that the Church acknowledges that some of his teachings were overly Platonic from the Apostolic teaching, but also that much of the problem of Origenism comes from his later followers who took his teachings much father than he did (Which is often the case of the followers of many leaders especially John Calvin).

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Something worth mentioning:
In Eastern Orthodoxy, the 5th Ecumenical Council was unprecedented in the history of Christianity because it was the first time people were posthumously anathematized - not only was Theodore of Mopsuetia anathematized, who died before even the Chalcedonian Controversy, but Origen was as well, who died centuries before.

The 5th Ecumenical Council, in addition to anathematizing Origen, also anathematized (obviously) key elements of his theological explanations.

Has the Oriental Orthodox Church ever anathematized Origen and his theology? And in light of the fact that posthumous anathematization was a development in Chalcedonian Christianity, can the Oriental Orthodox Church even anathematize Origen?

I actually have friends that have Apostolic lines from the (Nestorian) Assyrian Church of the East. They make a large issue out of this especially concerning Theodore of Mopsuetia; because, he was in good standing with Christianity for a long, long time before he they changed his status many years post mortem. That sort of thing violates the basic "due process" of most court proceedings!

 

[dzheremi]

hmmm in reading that article. My impression is not that he is excommunicated or anathemitized but rather that the Church acknowledges that some of his teachings were overly Platonic from the Apostolic teaching, but also that much of the problem of Origenism comes from his later followers who took his teachings much father than he did (Which is often the case of the followers of many leaders especially John Calvin).

It's true that it doesn't give details on his excommunication, but this seems to line up with what I've found in other sources, like the Coptic Encyclopedia:

"By 231 Origen had visited Rome, Arabia, and Palestine briefly, and had begun collecting translations of the Old Testament. He had already made a name for himself as a Christian theologian and had produced his first important work. In that year he found himself in conflict with DEMETRIUS I (189-231), the bishop of Alexandria, who apparently resented his growing fame as a teacher. He visited Athens and then, probably in 232, went to Antioch, where he was summoned, as a leading Christian philosopher, to an interview with Julia Mamaea, the mother of Emperor Alexander Severus. He probably returned to Alexandria briefly but then left it forever, pursued by the enmity of Demetrius, who succeeded in having Origen condemned by a synod at Rome as well as one at Alexandria."

Origen did not die until 253, so it seems that he spent quite a lot of his life outside of the Church, as HH St. Heraclas apparently upheld his predecessor's order.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Origen did not die until 253, so it seems that he spent quite a lot of his life outside of the Church, as HH St. Heraclas apparently upheld his predecessor's order.

That makes sense.

There is something of a change in doing business where the early church was reluctant to do heresy trials etc. (being busy with persecution and the Gnostic heresies) and the later church wants to be quick to stamp out any kind of potential theological brush fire.