Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

[Danthemailman]

Sola Fide or Justified by Faith alone, apart from works or solely was not invented by Luther. St John Chrysostom actually used the term often.

John Chrysostom: "They said that he who kept not the Law was cursed, but he proves that he who kept it was cursed, and he who kept it not, blessed. Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to Faith alone is blessed." (Commentary on Galatians, 3)

 

[BNR32FAN]

You see, just like i've said in post #316.

I knew you were going to ignore the second paragraph. No evidence, logic or reason is acknowledged here.

I agree these guys completely ignore scriptures and disregard anything that obviously refutes eternal security and salvation by faith without works. Each time they give an answer to John 15 and I point out their error they give a different answer again and again. First it was only those who don’t abide are cut off not those who don’t produce fruit, then it was to explain why Judas wasn’t present, now it’s to comfort them. Explaining scriptures with people who disregard what the scriptures say in order to hang on to their beliefs is a waste of time. They’re not interested in finding the truth they’re more interested in retaining their pride and saving face. They can’t humble themselves to the truth. If they were honest with us and themselves they would explain their position by pointing out examples in the verses were discussing but they don’t. They make empty claims and give no explanation or example quoting the scriptures. God is patient so we must be patient to. All we can do is plant the seeds and if they are truly seeking and knocking they will eventually find and the door will be opened. We should pray for all of us here asking The Lord for guidance and understanding of His word the way He intended it.

 

[Danthemailman]

I agree these guys completely ignore scriptures and disregard anything that obviously refutes eternal security and salvation by faith without works. Each time they give an answer to John 15 and I point out their error they give a different answer again and again. First it was only those who don’t abide are cut off not those who don’t produce fruit, then it was to explain why Judas wasn’t present, now it’s to comfort them. Explaining scriptures with people who disregard what the scriptures say in order to hang on to their beliefs is a waste of time. They’re not interested in finding the truth they’re more interested in retaining their pride and saving face. They can’t humble themselves to the truth. If they were honest with us and themselves they would explain their position by pointing out examples in the verses were discussing but they don’t. They make empty claims and give no explanation or example quoting the scriptures. God is patient so we must be patient to. All we can do is plant the seeds and if they are truly seeking and knocking they will eventually find and the door will be opened. We should pray for all of us here asking The Lord for guidance and understanding of His word the way He intended it.

I find your statements to be ironic, especially your comment about being more interested in retaining their pride and saving face and humbling themselves to the truth. That statement is the epitome of irony! Performance based works salvation is motivated by PRIDE and it's you who completely ignores scripture and disregards anything that refutes salvation by works and eternal IN-security. In regards to John 15, I have thoroughly explained my position to you in multiple posts, yet the truth continues to go right over your head.

I will explain it once more before I shake the dust off my shoes and move on. The "fruitless branches" experience only an external, superficial connection with Jesus as the vine. As I shared with you that Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

The "fruitless" branches, therefore, are not saved and never were. The warning is for them. In John 10:27-29, Jesus said in no uncertain terms that those He gives eternal life will never perish. In John 15:6, Jesus said that the fruitless branches will be "thrown away" (a form of the Greek verb ballo, "to cast," together with the adverb exo, "out"). But in John 6:37, Jesus uses identical terminology and said, "All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out" (ekballo with exo). Do you really believe that what Jesus denied could ever happen to a believer in John 6:37, will happen in contradiction to John 15:6? In John 6:37, Jesus said - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. but in John 15:6, He says that the fruitless branches will be cast out.

*Surely Jesus is not guilty of this most obvious contradiction.

This is where you need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. Abiding in Christ is not the condition for becoming a child of God, but is the consequence or the evidence of being a child of God. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. We become a Christian by faith in Christ and the evidence is that we abide or remain in Him. Authentic faith in Christ displays its true character by producing in the heart of the individual a persevering attachment to Jesus and God does not forsake His saints/they are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28)

In John 8:31, Jesus said - If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine. Those who do not continue were not truly disciples of Jesus. I hope and pray that something I and other believers have shared with you has at least planted a seed that one day will be watered and lead you to the truth. I will continue to pray for you.

 

[Yarddog]

You said faith is a work, that is akin to trying to make the sabbath or baptism works meriting salvation. Jesus is the author and finisher saving faith does not originate with the elect, it is received as a gift of gracelike every other aspect of salvation.

Faith is a work. It is a work of God's Holy Spirit within man. You cannot have faith without God's help. There is a difference between good works and works of the Mosaic Law. There is a difference in merits as well. You can try to merit something unto yourself or God can merit something unto you.

 

[Athanasius377]

Sola Fieta was a doctrine mostly invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century. Because Luther only had a limited knowledge of scripture, he was initially unaware of scripture’s contradictions on the matter.

Hi Thomas, welcome to CF. I hope your time interacting with other christians is fruitful. I am sad to say however, after such a warm welcome that I must report to you that everything in the above statement is wrong. Luther actually had a great knowledge of scripture and taught scripture at the University of Wittenberg prior to his posting of the 95 theses. Second, the idea that Luther invented the doctrine of Sola Fide is simply false. Luther is simply repeating what the Apostle Paul and later the early church fathers' taught. For example, and I can cite many others, John Chrysostom in his Homily on Acts 15:1 has this to say:
Everywhere he puts the Gentiles upon a thorough equality. “And put no difference between us and them, having purified their hearts by faith.” (v. 9.) From faith alone, he says, they obtained the same gifts. This is also meant as a lesson to those (objectors); this is able to teach even them that faith only is needed, not works nor circumcision.

John Chrysostom. (1889). Homilies of St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople, on the Acts of the Apostles. In P. Schaff (Ed.), J. Walker, J. Sheppard, H. Browne, & G. B. Stevens (Trans.), Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistle to the Romans (Vol. 11, pp. 201–202). New York: Christian Literature Company.

Or Clement of Rome, one who Rome says was an early Pope:

They all [sc. the patriarchs] were honoured and glorified, not through themselves or their works or their righteous behaviour, but through God’s will. And we also, who have been called in Christ Jesus through his will, are not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety, or our actions done in holiness of heart, but through faith, for it is through faith that Almighty God has justified all men that have been from the beginning of time: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Bettenson, H. (Ed.). (1969). The Early Christian Fathers: A Selection from the Writings of the Fathers from St. Clement of Rome to St. Athanasius. (H. Bettenson, Trans.) (p. 30). Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press.

James 2 (context: St. James is settling disputes here between his fellow Christians who claim superiority and overassume salvation) states:
“My brothers, what benefit is there if someone claims to have faith, but he does not have works? How would faith be able to save him? and if anyone of you were to say to them: "Go in peace, keep warm and nourished," and yet not give them the things that are necessary for the body, of what benefit is this? Thus even faith, if it does not have works, is dead, in and of itself. Now someone may say: "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works! But I will show you my faith by means of works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. But the demons also believe, and they tremble greatly. So then, are you willing to understand, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar? Do you see that faith was cooperating with his works, and that by means of works faith was brought to fulfillment? And so the Scripture was fulfilled which says: "Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice." And so he was called the friend of God. Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone? Similarly also, Rahab, the harlot, was she not justified by works, by receiving the messengers and sending them out through another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14, 16-26‬

Let's examine the text in question. James 2:14-26 (ESV)
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

So what is going on here? First, James is exhorting those who claimed to have faith but said faith was not accompanied by good works is a dead faith. In other words one cannot merely have a intellectual assent to a doctrine and that's it. Compare the faith James is speaking of with the faith Paul is speaking of in Eph 2:8-10 (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Conclusion? There is no contradiction between James and Paul. And if I might add there is contradiction as you indicated then there are two possibilities: One of the two texts are not God-breathed (θεόπνευστος) or God the Holy Spirit isn't consistent it what He teaches.

When Luther was shown this passage by a local bishop, his response was to remove James from the Bible entirely (along with Revelation and others for different reasons).

You mean Albrecht of Mainz? The one who was guilty of outright Simony whose debt was the reason why indulgences were being sold in Germany at the time that sparked Luther to write the 95 theses? Yes, that local bishop. Well lets take a look at the historical record for James. James is considered with Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude and Revelation to be Antilegomena meaning "spoken against". This is historically true. Eusebius writes:
3 Among the disputed writings, which are nevertheless recognized by many, are extant the so-called epistle of James and that of Jude,10 also the second epistle of Peter, and those that are called the second and third of John,12 whether they belong to the evangelist or to another person of the same name.

Eusebius of Caesaria. (1890). The Church History of Eusebius. In P. Schaff & H. Wace (Eds.), A. C. McGiffert (Trans.), Eusebius: Church History, Life of Constantine the Great, and Oration in Praise of Constantine (Vol. 1, p. 156). New York: Christian Literature Company.

Now Luther as a result wrote in his first edition of his translation of the NT that James was a "Strawry epistle" meaning useful, but not very valuable. He later removed these comments from later editions of his NT. The Lutheran Church to this day still regards James as inspired scripture.

 

[Athanasius377]

In Matthew 25 (“The Judgement of the Nations”), Christ is very clear that judgment is based on works.

Matt 25:31–46 (ESV)
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So here is my question, when did the Judgement begin? It began with the fact that there were goats and sheep. A goat can never become a sheep because its against its nature. Goats do goaty things and sheep do sheepy things because that is what they are? So when Christ returns he will judge them accordingly. But what the passage is not saying is good works would be any help because the goats wouldn't be able to do them anyway while the sheep cannot help but do said works.

 

[setst777]

Matt 25:31–46 (ESV)
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So here is my question, when did the Judgement begin? It began with the fact that there were goats and sheep. A goat can never become a sheep because its against its nature. Goats do goaty things and sheep do sheepy things because that is what they are? So when Christ returns he will judge them accordingly. But what the passage is not saying is good works would be any help because the goats wouldn't be able to do them anyway while the sheep cannot help but do said works.

You wrote:
A goat can never become a sheep because its against its nature.

My Reply:
Are you saying a person is a sheep or goat the day they are born? What about those persons who lived like the devil most of their lives, but then, later on became burdened over their sins, they heard the Gospel, and then repented and committed to faith in Christ Jesus. When they are saved, are they still goats, or are they now Christ's sheep, listening to and following Him?

 

[mark kennedy]

Faith is a work. It is a work of God's Holy Spirit within man. You cannot have faith within God's help. There is a difference between good works and works of the Mosaic Law. There is a difference in merits as well. You can try to merit something unto yourself or God can merit something unto you.

That is actually pure gospel, you will get no argument from me, well said. You might want to think about qualifying a statement like 'faith is a work' and then challenging someone on Christ being the author and finisher of our faith. Perhaps we can now put this misunderstanding behind us and get back to the regularly scheduled discussion.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[setst777]

Faith is a work. It is a work of God's Holy Spirit within man. You cannot have faith within God's help. There is a difference between good works and works of the Mosaic Law. There is a difference in merits as well. You can try to merit something unto yourself or God can merit something unto you.

Provide the Scriptures specifically teaching that faith unto salvation is a work of God, or comes by God's grace.

The Gospel is the power of God for salvation for who? –

For all who believe.

Romans 1 (WEB) Bolding mine…
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, for it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes; for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.”

How do we gain access to God’s saving grace? –

Only by faith

Romans 5 (WEB) Bolding mine…
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Who are the one’s shielded by God’s Power unto salvation? –

Only those of faith.

1 Peter 1 (NIV)
4 This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

So who are the ones kept by the power of God unto salvation? –

Only by faith

1 Peter 1:5
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Salvation is for who? Only those who believe to end.

1 Peter 1 (NIV) Bolding mine…
8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Scripture itself teaches us important things about faith

• (faith) is not by God’s grace, rather we gain access to God saving grace through faith.
• (faith) onto salvation is not God’s gift - God's gift is eternal life which we receive by faith.
• (faith) is not a work - faith onto salvation is never a work in Scripture. Rather faith is in opposition to works - not by works but by faith.

We gain access to the gift of saving grace (not by works) through faith in Christ Jesus.

Scripture is clear throughout that the grace and power of God onto salvation is only accessed and kept by faith in Christ Jesus.

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes; for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.”

 

[Thomas Cooper]

If you are granted understanding of Scripture as Luther was, and as Charles Chiniquoy was, then you will have more understanding than the disobedient church does, the one which cannot repent.
The understanding of Scripture hopefully will be granted, and bring Godly sorrow that leads to repentance, as it did for Luther and Chiniquoy and all the Ekklesia in ACTS and in the rest of the New Testament, and ever since then.

I’m sorry, but what evidence (other than personal belief) do you have that Luther and Chiniquoy were divinely inspired? That’s like saying Joseph Smith or Muhammad were inspired. Surely someone who was willing to remove Apostolic teachings from scripture couldn’t be under guidance from the Father. Thank you for you discussion though.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I’m sorry, but what evidence (other than personal belief) do you have that Luther and Chiniquoy were divinely inspired? That’s like saying Joseph Smith or Muhammad were inspired. Surely someone who was willing to remove Apostolic teachings from scripture couldn’t be under guidance from the Father. Thank you for you discussion though.

If you are granted understanding (revelation) from Yahweh, same as anyone else, then you know.
If you are not granted understanding from Yahweh, same as anyone else, then you don't know.

Always, always, always Yahweh is never contradicting His Own Word - thus how to learn when tradition is not from Him, Yahweh Willing. (even worldlings, carnal earthlings, can see this , rather easily at times (compared to educated ones who cannot admit this) ) .

 

[Athanasius377]

You wrote:
A goat can never become a sheep because its against its nature.

My Reply:
Are you saying a person is a sheep or goat the day they are born? What about those persons who lived like the devil most of their lives, but then, later on became burdened over their sins, they heard the Gospel, and then repented and committed to faith in Christ Jesus. When they are saved, are they still goats, or are they now Christ's sheep, listening to and following Him?

Without going down a rabbit trail what I mean is without divine intervention

You wrote:
A goat can never become a sheep because its against its nature.

My Reply:
Are you saying a person is a sheep or goat the day they are born? What about those persons who lived like the devil most of their lives, but then, later on became burdened over their sins, they heard the Gospel, and then repented and committed to faith in Christ Jesus. When they are saved, are they still goats, or are they now Christ's sheep, listening to and following Him?

Born a goat but a new creation in Christ Jesus and now a sheep. Eph 2:8-10.

 

[Thomas Cooper]

Hi Thomas, welcome to CF. I hope your time interacting with other christians is fruitful. I am sad to say however, after such a warm welcome that I must report to you that everything in the above statement is wrong. Luther actually had a great knowledge of scripture and taught scripture at the University of Wittenberg prior to his posting of the 95 theses. Second, the idea that Luther invented the doctrine of Sola Fide is simply false. Luther is simply repeating what the Apostle Paul and later the early church fathers' taught. For example, and I can cite many others, John Chrysostom in his Homily on Acts 15:1 has this to say:
Everywhere he puts the Gentiles upon a thorough equality. “And put no difference between us and them, having purified their hearts by faith.” (v. 9.) From faith alone, he says, they obtained the same gifts. This is also meant as a lesson to those (objectors); this is able to teach even them that faith only is needed, not works nor circumcision.

John Chrysostom. (1889). Homilies of St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople, on the Acts of the Apostles. In P. Schaff (Ed.), J. Walker, J. Sheppard, H. Browne, & G. B. Stevens (Trans.), Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistle to the Romans (Vol. 11, pp. 201–202). New York: Christian Literature Company.

Or Clement of Rome, one who Rome says was an early Pope:

They all [sc. the patriarchs] were honoured and glorified, not through themselves or their works or their righteous behaviour, but through God’s will. And we also, who have been called in Christ Jesus through his will, are not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety, or our actions done in holiness of heart, but through faith, for it is through faith that Almighty God has justified all men that have been from the beginning of time: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Bettenson, H. (Ed.). (1969). The Early Christian Fathers: A Selection from the Writings of the Fathers from St. Clement of Rome to St. Athanasius. (H. Bettenson, Trans.) (p. 30). Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press.



Let's examine the text in question. James 2:14-26 (ESV)
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

So what is going on here? First, James is exhorting those who claimed to have faith but said faith was not accompanied by good works is a dead faith. In other words one cannot merely have a intellectual assent to a doctrine and that's it. Compare the faith James is speaking of with the faith Paul is speaking of in Eph 2:8-10 (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Conclusion? There is no contradiction between James and Paul. And if I might add there is contradiction as you indicated then there are two possibilities: One of the two texts are not God-breathed (θεόπνευστος) or God the Holy Spirit isn't consistent it what He teaches.


You mean Albrecht of Mainz? The one who was guilty of outright Simony whose debt was the reason why indulgences were being sold in Germany at the time that sparked Luther to write the 95 theses? Yes, that local bishop. Well lets take a look at the historical record for James. James is considered with Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude and Revelation to be Antilegomena meaning "spoken against". This is historically true. Eusebius writes:
3 Among the disputed writings, which are nevertheless recognized by many, are extant the so-called epistle of James and that of Jude,10 also the second epistle of Peter, and those that are called the second and third of John,12 whether they belong to the evangelist or to another person of the same name.

Eusebius of Caesaria. (1890). The Church History of Eusebius. In P. Schaff & H. Wace (Eds.), A. C. McGiffert (Trans.), Eusebius: Church History, Life of Constantine the Great, and Oration in Praise of Constantine (Vol. 1, p. 156). New York: Christian Literature Company.

Now Luther as a result wrote in his first edition of his translation of the NT that James was a "Strawry epistle" meaning useful, but not very valuable. He later removed these comments from later editions of his NT. The Lutheran Church to this day still regards James as inspired scripture.

Hello, and thank you for responding to my post. I’d like to address your response.
First of all, thank you for pointing out more facts about Luther, but I think you misunderstood my comment. While Luther did teach scripture, and while there are records of him doing it well, sacred scripture consists of over 70 books and Luther didn’t have a knowledge of all of them, rather, professors would be more specialized on subjects.

Thank you also for bringing in sources outside of sacred scripture such as the writings of St. Chrysostom and Pope Saint Clement (who was acknowledged as pope not just by the Roman diocese but by the Ephesian diocese where Saint John the Apostle lived).
You are, however, taking St. Chrysostom’s words “faith alone” out of context here. I agree with his quotation, but you seem to misunderstand it. He was simply reaffirming that through faith, we respond to the grace of the Holy Spirit. He never says that by that singular response we are saved.

As for Pope Saint Clement’s words, they too are true, but you again misunderstand his commentary. Like St. Paul, He is addressing the the salvation of the Jews as opposed to the salvation of the gentiles. While the Jews were pious in their works of the law, without faith in Christ. The patriarchs had to have faith in their God in order to be with Him. He tells the gentile Christians that, while they do not follow the Mosaic Law, their faith saves them. He doesn’t say that works don’t save; he simply says that works alone don’t save.

Lastly, your commentary on James 2, while some of it I see to hold true, most of it seems a bit faulty, wrongly asserted to emphasize certain points over others, and misunderstood. While you’re right that James points out the hypocrisy of those who falsely claim to have faith. However, in between the lines you chose to highlight, he accuses his fellow Christians (who clearly have faith) that they cannot simply abandon their starving neighbors. The rest of the passage cannot in anyway be interpreted to suggest that faith without works saves. You are right in your examination that James does not contradict Paul. that faith, as Paul uses it, implies works because our faith, as Christ gives, is infused with good works.

If you see my original post, I mentioned Ephesians 2:8-10. This passage makes it clear that by faith we are saved by God’s free gift of grace. We accept this gift with our response of faith. Our faith must be active though, we must manifest it though our actions.

Notice that while I discussed Luther’s scandalous actions, I only held his theological crimes against him, not his secular, to make my point. A bishop’s sins do not take away the facts he presented.

Bishop Eusebius Pamphillius of Cæsaria also pledged his allegiance to Christ’s Apostolic Church and held her teachings to be infallible.

I hope that I could help further broaden the knowledge and awareness of this discussion with my above responses. And thank you for your response and additions to my original post.

Happy if I could help in anyway.

 

[Thomas Cooper]

If you are granted understanding (revelation) from Yahweh, same as anyone else, then you know.
If you are not granted understanding from Yahweh, same as anyone else, then you don't know.

Always, always, always Yahweh is never contradicting His Own Word - thus how to learn when tradition is not from Him, Yahweh Willing. (even worldlings, carnal earthlings, can see this , rather easily at times (compared to educated ones who cannot admit this) ) .

I think I understand your point now, thank you. I’m simply pointing out that in Christ’s words, God’s Holy Spirit rests on Christ’s Church. Anyone else who claims to receive inspiration or “another Gospel” must be rejected if that word contradicts the divinely inspired Church. Thank you, though, for hearing me out.

 

[redleghunter]

Therefore, the true believers live by the Spirit whom they receive by faith in Christ – these are the regenerate, the sanctified, the New Creation.

Good day I’m back. I read you entire post. Only point you did not discuss was the atonement and the relationship of the atonement to regeneration and new life.

Where do you see the atonement mentioned in Romans 3-5 in Justification by faith?

 

[redleghunter]

Do you think married people come under the category of saints?

Of course. Priscilla and Aquila come to mind.

 

[redleghunter]

Have you got an example of a couple set apart for discipleship together?

Priscilla and Aquila

 

[redleghunter]

I don't prefer pick and chose verses or part verses of Paul. Can you defend based on Jesus' words?

Paul an Apostle of Jesus Christ is not good enough to quote?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, well, that tradition that you trust (according to your own posts) , when contrary to all Scripture, as a lot of it is, is rejected as Yahweh Says to reject it, not "hearing you out" no.

In Scripture, there is mention of the few who find the road to life; and the many deceived by the beast or the harlot or the false prophet in the whole wide world.
Thus, no, I don't agree, I don't think you understand.
What you are "pointing out" has for centuries been shown from the Word of God, All Scripture, NOT to be Christ's Words.

I think I understand your point now, thank you. I’m simply pointing out that in Christ’s words, God’s Holy Spirit rests on Christ’s Church. Anyone else who claims to receive inspiration or “another Gospel” must be rejected if that word contradicts the divinely inspired Church. Thank you, though, for hearing me out.

 

[Yarddog]

That is actually pure gospel, you will get no argument from me, well said. You might want to think about qualifying a statement like 'faith is a work' and then challenging someone on Christ being the author and finisher of our faith. Perhaps we can now put this misunderstanding behind us and get back to the regularly scheduled discussion.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I shouldn't need to qualify the statement because Christians should understand what different types of works there are. Sadly, too many don't and that leads to debate based on definitions.