Yet contrary to salvation by works Christians Paul does not say, "created in Christ Jesus to do good works (in order to be saved)". Rather the verses show the proper place of works - that being that salvation is not contingent upon works but rather works are an effect of being saved.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
The good news is not salvation by works.
To everyone:
At times we want to ask a question (I have) like --
'Where are these people (anywhere??) that think they are earning their salvation on their own without Christ, by their own works, without Christ?'
Aren't such very rare? Perhaps there is a tiny handful that imagine they are saving themselves on their own good deeds (that is, without Christ, not by the gift of God, not by Grace), by their own works alone. But where are they?
I've said more than once or twice also: "They must be very rare, as I've not been able to find them."
I've said even: "Show me where they are, so that I can bring them the Good News." and that was sincere.
I cannot identify any here at CF, though I've read a lot of posts in these kinds of threads about faith and works.
I know perfectly well that for example Catholics say they are saved by Grace through faith in their own wordings.
They believe works are also required of us (as do most protestants as best I can tell from a great many conversations, for that matter).
Also we can ask the inverse:
'Where are the people (are there any?), who truly think that they are saved by Grace through faith
and also think they can perfectly fine have zero fruit, zero doing as Christ said, who really do throw out the epistle of James (and for that matter those of Peter, John, and Paul, all) out by using only select passages from Paul and maybe a few selected verses from the gospels isolated from others, and ignore the remainder of Paul, of all the other epistles, really over 90% of all the New Testament? '
Perhaps I (we) should also say: "Where are they? I don't think I've been able to find any here."
(though I admit I may have found one somewhere else on another site, though it's not clear since the person blocked me suddenly after just 1 comment where I simply pointed out Ephesians 2:10 and said we must do as Christ commanded us to do).
Yes, I know there are a very few perhaps, but....maybe they are just
more rare than we would guess, I'm thinking.
Instead, one thing that does happen naturally in all discussions, inevitably, is that people misguess about what the other person believes/assumes, various things that persons hasn't clearly stated.
When person A thinks person B is claiming their works save them, cause salvation, and person B thinks person A is claiming zero works is ok....
...what's actually happening very often is that both person A and person B don't yet have the full list/knowing of what the other believes -- they just have part. Therefore caution on reaching a conclusion is best.
I best wait for person Z to say clearly to me in some way: "having zero fruits/works is just fine even for Christians that have been saved for years" before I conclude that's what they believe.
They probably do not believe such. Experience shows me that usually they don't think that, and don't follow that, but instead, they only have different wordings when talking (even use the same words to mean different things; e.g. 'works' for instance, to mean radically different things) and also emphasize different aspects, to begin with, according to their own personal background/experiences/challenges/lessons.
Often: All along person A and person B largely have the same views.
But they use different wordings, unfamiliar to the other, and also different emphasis.
It's not that there are zero differences in understandings and beliefs. It's that we tend to emphasize what's different and then also guess further past what actually is, pretty often.
It's like even though we are using English, we still have different...dialects.
It's like the Tower of Babel isn't truly diminished (or not a lot). Still mostly in effect.
So, when a person now questions on either side, I do not assume they are on one side as if to set faith against works, or works against faith. I assume they have a different emphasis according to their own life background, where they are coming out of, the historical mistakes their church battled for instance, or such. They often are prescribing a corrective to a problem they identified.
As it seems in my memory: We are simply saved only by grace, through faith, and not by works. It is the gift of God, lest any should boast. For we are created in Christ Jesus to do the good works which God has prepared for us to do.
