Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

[Cis.jd]

To everyone.
snip

Varangian Christian and BNR32FAN have done a great job in showing the scriptural case so I don't think i need to copy what they did in this post.

The truth is we see the fallaciousness of Faith alone whenever we start debating against non-christians on any moral topic related to the God of the Bible or Christianity in general.

When an atheist, muslim, jew or anybody uses arguments to discredit christianity through examples of bad behaviors and actions that christians have done in history or in current events, the whole "faith alone" disappears and we will see reasons and various arguments as to why said examples of people aren't truly christian.

I've experimented this before in religion/science discussions around the web, and in my posts I used a lot of profanity while throwing personal insults (moron, idiot.. etc) at every atheist.. I would also talk about the girls i slept with, and how much i love doing this and watching Porn. Again, this was just an experiment. Now, what happened was the "Faith Alone" Christians rebuked me, and told me how my actions showed I wasn't a true christian. Where did this "faith alone" go? Apparently, sticking to the faith alone in secular arguments would just confirm the negative view points that non-christians are pointing out in christianity which is why these "faith aloners" didn't see how their views just suddenly changed.

What the reformed people have to understand is that nobody rejects the power of faith. It is important even in a non-religious sense. Science even confirmed this, they just call it the placebo effect. You can also see the need of it in depressed people who have completely shut down due to not having anymore motivation or just faith that things are going to get better. So no doubt there is power in faith.

But in terms of salvation, faith alone is not only unscriptural it is completely illogical. It demonstrates what Christianity isn't supposed to be - a religion. Christianity was supposed to be a life style; the renewed relationship between God and man and relationships aren't a one man team.

It contradicts the "loving God" that we claim about Jesus when we believe in the "faith alone" because it indirectly shows that he doesn't care about morality, it's all just worshiping him that matters. So all these non-christian groups who go out to save animals, or save children from Human trafficking is all meaningless to him, because due to no faith they are still going to burn for eternity. There is just too many logic holes in this doctrine that it nearly contradicts many cases we defend about God when conversing with others.

 

[redleghunter]

Genuine theology is grace and truth. Counterfeit is grace alone

The truth being that Grace is no longer Grace if we add to it.

 

[Danthemailman]

Faith is not a work of the law but it is a work. It is a work that shows that God's Holy Spirit is working within. Just as other works of the Spirit are necessary.

You are confusing the essence of faith with the evidence or fruit of faith. It also sounds like you are erroneously trying to "dissect" good works from the law (Matthew 22:37-40) and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law). So what kind of work is faith and how many works must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us?

 

[redleghunter]

This was my address to the OP



If you would like me to elaborate I would add that we are chosen by God to do good works. That’s what Jesus is explaining to His faithful apostles in John 15 and why He tells them to abide in Him and produce fruit otherwise they will be cut off from the vine (Jesus) thrown away to wither then thrown into the fire to be burned.

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬

“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:16‬

How many times did Jesus refer to trees that wither and die because they did not produce fruit?

“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬

“The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:10‬

“Seeing at a distance a fig tree in leaf, He went to see if perhaps He would find anything on it; and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. He said to it, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again!" And His disciples were listening.

As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots up. Being reminded, Peter said to Him, "Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered."”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:13-14, 20-21‬

Here’s another example explained in a different way.

“"For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. "Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.' "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.' "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:14-30‬

The wicked lazy servant was a servant of God who did not produce fruit or profit. Some will claim the lazy servant of the master was not a true believer but how does this example differ from John 15:1-8? Jesus gave His faithful 11 apostles the same example with the same consequences. This is why no one wants to address John 15 because they can’t explain it in the proper context without contradicting the doctrine of eternal security and salvation by faith without works. It’s not hard to understand that we are saved by the type of faith that produces works. Not by a faith that doesn’t produce works. It’s not the works that save us but the type of faith that saves us. This is what James was talking about in James 2:14-26. Notice verse 14

“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬

James mentions two types of faith in verses 14-26. There’s a saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless or barren faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith.

Paul believed he was capable of losing His salvation.

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭

Notice Paul includes himself by saying if WE deny Him He will deny US. Now I’m sure some will say if we are faithless He remains faithful means that we will still be saved if we lose our faith but nowhere does the Bible say that. If we are faithless Jesus is faithful to do what He said He would do to those without faith and to those who deny Him.

“"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:32-33‬

You continue to put the fruit on the disciples when Christ says He is the source of the fruit. The branch is cut off for not abiding. It is not cut off for not producing fruit. Verse 6 again is quite clear.

So abide boldly my friend is the motto below my avatar. Has been for a long time here.

John chapters 16 and 17 show how this is possible.

 

[redleghunter]

Romans 5 is providing the groundwork, but does not explain the terms given there. Try reading the context given in Romans 6 through Romans 8. Then go back to Romans 5 and interpret in light of the context.

Blessings

Actually Romans 6-8 don’t make a whole lot of sense without knowing Justification by Faith in chapters 3-5. We also would not understand chapter 6 and 7 without knowing it is the Righteousness of God through Jesus Christ which gives us our standing before a Holy God.

 

[redleghunter]

Christ meets the perfect standard for those who, by faith, listen to and follow Him. These are the sheep that are granted eternal life.

Whose Righteousness accomplishes this Divine miracle?

 

[setst777]

Obedience as a necessity is all to obvious to most of us, and it's just a shame some accepted a salvation plan that wasn't real. That or they found their way into it because it seemed like a better deal. They believe that technically they would still be allowed to sin just as we did before we were saved, that they were getting into a "no risk investment/contract" because it's a popular enough false teaching that it can be seemingly justified because so many believe it these days. I recall a time when that was unheard of, the basics were be good and go to heaven, don't and you won't.

Many of the Faith only crowd will fight tooth and nail to hang on to that right to sin, and hearing the truth makes them fight even more. We can put the most simply stated, easy to understand scripture right in front of them, something even the Atheist would have absolutely no problem understanding, and get some of the most nonsensical so-called refutes (if someone wants to report me for comparing you to Atheists, first off Atheists are at least honest/solid about their beliefs, and secondly, I'm not comparing you to them, only that someone that doesn't even believe the bible can, in many cases, easily understand what it actually says.)

Anyone ever noticed how they start threads on this so often? IMO, that's because they need it reinforced so often, and I think because they know the truth, or the truth is gnawing at them, and they need to keep doing that in order to keep themselves believing the lie.

I've thought from time to time, it would be interesting to ask them if they had some pet sins they just aren't going to let go of, and what are they? I also have to wonder if some would have ever even gotten on board had they been given the truth from the start? Would what little we actually have to do have been to much to ask for our eternal salvation?

Lastly, and this is my opinion, but the worse thing is not the individual believing this, and of course it's bad enough to lose even one to sin, but to teach it to others, to Gods sincerely seeking children? I'm just afraid that is going to be more costly than they will ever know... a seriously bad idea.

Very true, and good words. We can make this more clear to them helping them understand, Scripturally, that obedience is not an add on to faith, but rather, that a true Bible faith in Christ is expressed in repentance from the old life and obedience to Christ (the new life), just as Christ commanded of those who believe in Him -

• to listen to and follow Him to receive eternal life ..(John 10:27-28)
• to deny ourselves and take up our crosses and follow him to be saved (Luke 9:23-25).

Romans 1:5 (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Romans 16:25-26 (NIV)
25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith

Hebrews 5:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Therefore, obedience is not an addition to faith; rather obedience is an integral aspect of Bible faith that is essential for salvation.

 

[redleghunter]

I challenge everyone here who advocates eternal security to explain John 15:1-10. Our beliefs cannot contradict any scripture otherwise it is a false belief.

Great topic. I’ll start another thread on it this evening.

 

[redleghunter]

The OP is not about eternal security, but is about "faith and works." Why are you so obsessed with disproving eternal security? Greek scholar AT Robertson makes a valid point in regards to branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit in John 15:

Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

*I noticed in John 15:2 that Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

It’s always an either or. Fruit or no fruit at all. I’m going to posit an OP tonight or later today so we can address the text of John 15 and it’s context as chapters 13-14 lead into it and chapters 16-17 lead from it.

 

[redleghunter]

There’s nothing here that says these people were not believers. Many people use Jesus’ sacrifice as an excuse to sin all they want by saying it’s ok Jesus paid for my sins. They do not repent of their sin and they will not enter heaven.

This is the root of your argument it seems. And through this is the lens on interpreting the various passages.

Here’s the answer to the above...2 Corinthians 13:5-6

 

[Danthemailman]

My works have nothing to do with saving me. The type of faith I have does.

You say this in one breath, then in another breath say something different.

I’m sorry brother Dan but your explanation of the sheep and goats parable is a cop out. I mean c’mon do I really have to post the entire bible and give explanation? Let’s just take it one step at a time. You can post scriptures you belong refute my interpretation and I can explain them. That’s how this is supposed to work my friend. I’m Salvation is conditional and abiding is one of the conditions.

My explanation was no cop out and if you were unable to understand what I shared with you in post #228 then I can't help you any further. The Greek word for "abide" is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:5‬

The goats didn’t produce much fruit and they faced the consequences Jesus mentioned in John 15:2 & John 15:6.

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away (removes) and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2, 6‬

See posts #223 & #229. If you still don't understand that I cannot help you any further.

Your explanation of Matthew 25 is as expected which is why I like to jump straight to John 15. Your saying the servant of the master is not a servant of God. I would say then he wouldn’t be called a servant of the master.

Logical fallacy. Being called a servant does not necessarily mean that person is saved. *Israel (the Jews) were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved. *Isaiah 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen..

Just as in the parable of the talents, in which the talents represent monetary value and are distributed according to ability (Matthew 25:15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. *The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called wicked and slothful and an unprofitable servant (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness, certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering what he had no right to claim as his own." This slothful so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. *Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. *Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness.

Ok let’s take a look at your example given pertaining to 1 John 3:10 you said quote

Notice how practicing righteousness and love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status but not the cause of it: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14

Amen!

So let’s take a look at what Paul says pertaining to this matter.

“even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:5-19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now these people are believers right? Paul undoubtedly says they are of God’s household. Look at what Paul says to these believers who are of God’s household or in other words children of God.

Amen! Letters are addressed to believers, not unbelievers, yet it's not hard to find unbelievers mixed in with a crowd of believers. Which makes sense why Paul would post such warnings.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Children of God are not described as children of disobedience. Ephesians 2:1 - And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, (past tense) 2 in which you once walked (past tense) according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, (unbelievers) 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Is Paul saying to these Children of God that they cannot become sons of disobedience?

Show me the words "Children of God become children of disobedience" in that passage of scripture. Children of God may stumble and fall, yet they get back up. (Proverbs 24:16) The sons of disobedience continue to live in that sin.

Your saying these children of God are incapable of such behavior and Paul is clearly warning them not to engage in such behavior. Do you see the dilemma here? Clearly a child of God can in fact fall from grace and again become a son of disobedience otherwise Paul is warning the Ephesians about doing something he believed was impossible for them to do. John is actually saying a person is a child of God as long as they continue to live accordingly to God’s Word. I have to stop here I will reply to the rest of your post later. Sorry my lunch break is over. Have a blessed day brother.

Children of God are not teflon and are capable of sinning, yet those who are born of God do not "practice" sin (1 John 3:9). To practice sin is to live in willful, habitual sin. Lifestyle or bent of life with no goal or effort to stop. So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that these children of God fell from grace by participating in such behavior a little too much and did not sufficiently live according to God's Word? What is your passing grade?

 

[redleghunter]

Genuine theology is faith and fruit. Counterfeit is faith alone

What is your understanding of Faith alone?

 

[Halbhh]

When an atheist, muslim, jew or anybody uses arguments to discredit christianity through examples of bad behaviors and actions that christians have done in history or in current events, the whole "faith alone" disappears and we will see reasons and various arguments as to why said examples of people aren't truly christian.

Yes! That's one part of what James is getting at in His epistle at one point in chapter 2 it seems. By chance I was just listening to a lecture about understanding James vs Paul regarding faith/works meaning, and just as I read your paragraph, at the same moment, the lecturer R.C. Sproul was pointing where James is saying a very similar thing. (starting around when the timer is reading about 15 and 1/2 minutes left (but knowing Sproul the entire lecture is going to be worth our time even for very well studied folks):
Renewing Your Mind | Paul vs. James? | Apr 6, 2017

 

[setst777]

Actually Romans 6-8 don’t make a whole lot of sense without knowing Justification by Faith in chapters 3-5. We also would not understand chapter 6 and 7 without knowing it is the Righteousness of God through Jesus Christ which gives us our standing before a Holy God.

Good point. The more context we can get from Paul's entire letter to the Romans, the better understanding we will have from the context.

You wrote:
Righteousness of God through Jesus Christ which gives us our standing before a Holy God.

My Response:
Yes, what you say is true, but is only part of the context of what Paul taught here about imputed righteousness. Paul repeatedly states that this righteousness is only received by faith (Romans 1:17; Romans 3:22; Romans 4:3-5; Romans 4:9-13; Romans 4:24)

Now read Romans 6, which applies righteousness that is by faith in real time in the Christian life, which Baptism represents - the dying (repentance) from the old life, and rising to a New Life in obedience to Christ Jesus - a slave of righeousness. ... Set free from sin to follow Christ.

Romans 7 teaches that we cannot attain this righteousness by the works of the Law, or by the flesh.

Romans 8 teaches that when we are in Christ (by faith) means we are now obedient to the Spirit who helps us, so that we may have the power to live out the New Life - which is salvation from sin and death.

Christ Jesus only imputes His perfect righteousness to those, who by faith, repent and live in obedience to Him, and His Spirit. In other words, a true follower of Christ is no longer controlled by sin, and no longer living in sin. But if we should sin in weakness, Christ's perfect righteousness is imputed to us.

 

[setst777]

Faith is not a work of the law but it is a work. It is a work that shows that God's Holy Spirit is working within. Just as other works of the Spirit are necessary.

Show us where the Holy Scriptures teach that faith unto salvation is ever a work.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Faith that trusts 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Have you ever heard the term, "Ye of little faith"? You now perfecly well if we had enough faith we could move mountains or we could walk on water, so there are different levels of saving faith.

So, since you now know clearly there are different amounts of faith, just as there are different amounts of works, once again, how much does it take?

But don't worry, no one expects you to answer because some of us know that God decides the necessary sum of both faith and works. Also, that there is very simply no particular amount given by God. Why? Some are weak, some are strong and for those that were given more, more is expected, and vice versa. The answer, "It varies" would probably be as close as we could come.

The point...you all really do need to cross the "how many/much works" thing off your list of stumpers...it's used way to often fo5r something that means nothing. But hey, it may impress/bait the uneducated sincere seeker just enough, and how sad would that be..

 

[Danthemailman]

What makes them not equally fruitful?

What makes some believers grow faster than others and mature in Christ faster than others?

Why, how do you know that hitler didn't have the same faith as you? Why would all the murders indicate an invalid faith and why would any that matter?

Are you serious?

None of it is right. You are inserting your own creative thoughts on to the verse and applying radical meanings out of your own mind. Your analogy is wrong because James already gave an analogy of it by using the body (james 2:26). 2nd of all your tree analogy is illogical because an apple tree that isn't capable of producing apples is considered completely useless or something is seriously wrong with it. It may not be naturally needed to be alive but to a farmer that tree is good as dead.

It's all right and in James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10). My tree analogy is spot on. A living tree produces fruit and not the other way around, just as a living faith produces works and not the other way around. You seem to ignore the word (says-claims) to have faith in James 2:14 and read it as if this hypothetical person actually has authentic faith. This remains your stumbling block.

It is not shown in every verse and it's not shown to be alone either when the entire bible is brought in, that this "faith alone" case is all from cherry picking.

Once again, in multiple passages of scripture, you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then its faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE. That is not cherry picking. Just because works are mentioned in other passages of scripture in connection with being the evidence of faith does not mean we are saved by works. Show me just one verse in the Bible that specifically says man is saved through faith and works. I'll save you the trouble. It's not there.

There is no reason why the other verses that contain works should be disregarded as a connection/extension to the teachings of salvation.

I don't disregard those verses that pertain to works as being the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, yet these works are not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.

Your entire block could be accepted as possible until Rev 20:12 shows people being judged according to their works.

The dead are judged according to their works to determine what? In Matthew 23:14, we see Jesus rebuking the scribes and Pharisees for devouring widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore they will receive greater condemnation.

For believers, works will be judged to determine rewards and loss of rewards, not salvation or loss of salvation. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

Or Matthew 7:21-23 where Jesus rebukes those who have faith in him yet have evil works.

Who said these many people had faith in Jesus? Mental assent belief joined with trusting in works for salvation is not saving faith. Jesus NEVER knew these many people which means they were NEVER saved and we are saved through faith. Do the math.

The "faulty human logic" card is an excuse to brush of any scriptural related views when it doesn't make sense, of course we can apply logical thinking that when we investigate messages in scripture. Jesus did that when he gave parables. The whole debate on justification and practically every other form of theology is also assisted by our understanding of what the verses say so you are also applying a form of logic when you determine what is being said in scripture.

I continue to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. You seem to isolate your pet verses, build doctrine on them and then try to force the rest of scripture to "conform" to your biased doctrine based on your preconceived ideas.

 

[redleghunter]

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

Good point. It was not until John 16 they were even told of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Danthemailman]

Have you ever heard the term, "Ye of little faith"? You now perfecly well if we had enough faith we could move mountains or we could walk on water, so there are different levels of saving faith.

That's not different levels of saving faith. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. That is where the line is drawn in the sand on whether or not we have the right kind of faith that saves.

The Bible says that God has dealt to each one a measure of faith (Romans 12:3), which may include a special endowment of faith to accomplish certain tasks in ministry, but it's not about this person received a greater measure of faith than some other person, so the other person won't be saved because he did not receive a higher measure of faith. All believers have faith that trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation, but not all believers (especially babes in Christ) have enough faith to get them through bad situations in their life and they still need to grow in faith, but not in order to become saved, as if only those who are fully mature in their faith will be saved.

So, since you now know clearly there are different amounts of faith, just as there are different amounts of works, once again, how much does it take?

Like I said, it takes 100% faith in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. God bestows the gift of faith (1 Corinthians 12:9) according to His grace on/for us. We have different gifts based on the grace that was given to us. So if your gift is prophecy for example, use your gift in proportion to your faith. (Romans 12:6) Not all Christians have the same spiritual gifts, but one and the same Spirit produces all these results and gives what He wants to each person. (1 Corinthians 12:11)

But don't worry, no one expects you to answer because some of us know that God decides the necessary sum of both faith and works. Also, that there is very simply no particular amount given by God. Why? Some are weak, some are strong and for those that were given more, more is expected, and vice versa. The answer, "It varies" would probably be as close as we could come.

So everyone has a set amount of both faith and works that God expects to be accomplished and only He knows for sure what the passing grade is? Performance based salvation with a handicap? So does God grade on a curve? You seem to be confusing faith in Christ for salvation with a special endowment of faith to accomplish certain tasks in ministry.

The point...you all really do need to cross the "how many/much works" thing off your list of stumpers...it's used way to often fo5r something that means nothing.

No, if salvation was by works then there must be a set amount of works that must be accomplished in order to receive salvation. The whole deception is that we could never produce enough good works to merit salvation. That is why we need a Savior and Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

But hey, it may impress/bait the uneducated sincere seeker just enough, and how sad would that be..

Sounding a bit arrogant.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The OP is not about eternal security, but is about "faith and works." Why are you so obsessed with disproving eternal security? Greek scholar AT Robertson makes a valid point in regards to branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit in John 15:

Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

*I noticed in John 15:2 that Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Your mistaken brother.

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

He who abides in Me bears much fruit. Not bore much fruit. Abide means to remain. We are not remaining in Him if we are not continuously producing fruit.

“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:16‬