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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

People with extreme anti-science views know the least...

essentialsaltes

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Interestingly, the study says the pattern did not emerge with opposition to Climate Change. So, those that deny climate change are not as unaware of the science thereof.

Well, the hypothesis of the researcher is that "Fernbach hypothesizes that climate change has become so politically polarized that people subscribe to whatever their ideological group says, regardless of how much they think they know."

So it's not so much that climate change denialists are necessarily well-informed, but that their level of information is almost irrelevant, since adherence to the idea is not based on evidence, but tribal association.
 
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Sound Doctrine

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but think they know the most: study

The study involved genetically modified organisms, where there is little political bias to confuse the issue.

The more extreme the opposition, Fernbach and his co-authors found, the less people knew about the science and genetics, but the more their “self-assessed” knowledge — how much they thought they knew — increased.

“If somebody is well calibrated, those two things should be pretty highly correlated: If I know how much I know, then if I know a little I should say I know a little, and if I know a lot I should say I know a lot,” Fernbach explained. “Therefore there should be a high correlation between self-assessed and objective knowledge.

“And indeed, that’s actually true for the people who are moderate, or people who have the attitude that is consistent with the scientific consensus,” he said.

However, as people become more extreme, that relationship degrades and flips so that people who think they know more actually know less.

I disagree with the author. Some geniuses have made important scientific discoveries that went completely against "scientific" consensus, yet are scientifically proven to be true. Many scientists produce science that the Bible warns us is false, as in "science falsely so-called."

Take the politically biased and unscrupulous claims by many in "science" that claim the earth's atmosphere has warmed due to increasing man-made (AGW) CO2. To start with, Dr. James Hansen, former chief scientist at NASA claimed this to be the case based totally on pushing a global crisis agenda, creating a crisis that does not really exist. His report gives the formula for calculating global temperature changes. In that calculation is a calculation of the earth's albedo. The albedo changes as the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere changes, due to natural cycles. Hansen made the variable albedo a fixed constant of some number that allows for gradual increases in atmospheric warming, then blames this on CO2.

First of all, the albedo, like the water vapor, is variable. Second, water vapor is by far the most impressive greenhouse gas. Third, CO2 only makes up 0.04% of the earth's atmosphere, and if it were to increase by 100% would still not affect global temperature because it is such a tiny fraction of the atmosphere to begin with. Further, because of such infinitesimal quantities and such a short time of satellite studies, which are the only accurate way to measure the earth's changing environment, it is virtually impossible for "scientists" to evaluate whether changes are caused by man or not.

Hansen's report was never peer-reviewed and was shown to world leaders who received it with the idea that this would justify creating an invented AGW crisis. All scientific papers and reports are supposed to be peer-reviewed, Hansen's wasn't. It was garbage. The earth's atmosphere is warm now because it is natural for it to be, but it is cooling, again due to natural cycles of ocean temperature changes. The ocean temperatures drive the atmosphere. So why the AGW hoax?

Politics - the UN in its Agenda 21 are trying to remove current national borders and constitutions, to be replaced with their own. Everyone is supposed to think globally, not what is best for their country. The result is a New World Order, which George H.W. Bush kept talking about and touting. Create global crises and globally respond to them, nationalism be damned. That is their approach. Work off the emotions of the population, not with real science.

Science in its true form is man's way of trying to understand God's creation. It is false science to leave God out of the equation. The Bible (something you as an atheist don't believe in) says to beware of carefully contrived fables and science falsely so-called. This does not condemn all science, just that which is false. That which is false is that which tries to explain away God. But you see, no matter how hard you try, you can't.
 
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A_Thinker

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Dr. James Hansen, former chief scientist at NASA claimed this to be the case based totally on pushing a global crisis agenda, creating a crisis that does not really exist. His report gives the formula for calculating global temperature changes. In that calculation is a calculation of the earth's albedo. The albedo changes as the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere changes, due to natural cycles. Hansen made the variable albedo a fixed constant of some number that allows for gradual increases in atmospheric warming, then blames this on CO2.

First of all, the albedo, like the water vapor, is variable. Second, water vapor is by far the most impressive greenhouse gas. Third, CO2 only makes up 0.04% of the earth's atmosphere, and if it were to increase by 100% would still not affect global temperature because it is such a tiny fraction of the atmosphere to begin with. Further, because of such infinitesimal quantities and such a short time of satellite studies, which are the only accurate way to measure the earth's changing environment, it is virtually impossible for "scientists" to evaluate whether changes are caused by man or not.
Since I am not familiar with the information you present, I would need some certification that what you are presenting is true (i.e. someone with the accompanying accredidation).

Also, when one presents these types of arguments, it is more compelling when it presented in as unbiased a manner as possible. In that regard, using wording such as "garbage" and "hoax" when one describes another's work is not positive for your point of view.

The Bible (something you as an atheist don't believe in) says to beware of carefully contrived fables and science falsely so-called.
Where does the Bible say this ? I don't recall anything about "science falsely so-called" ...
 
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pitabread

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Perhaps some just think scientific enlightenment is evil? Something worldly?

I was recently reading about Flat Earthism that suggested that that type of science denial stems from a perceived power imbalance. Those with more scientific knowledge are perceived as having power and therefore groups that reject the status quo and try to come up with their own reality is a way of taking power back.

It seems completely misguided in the long run, but there is probably some sort of psychology driving it.
 
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pitabread

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It is false science to leave God out of the equation.

Science cannot address God one way or the other. The supernatural is outside of the purview of scientific inquiry.
 
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Since I am not familiar with the information you present, I would need some certification that what you are presenting is true (i.e. someone with the accompanying accredidation).

Also, when one presents these types of arguments, it is more compelling when it presented in as unbiased a manner as possible. In that regard, using wording such as "garbage" and "hoax" when one describes another's work is not positive for your point of view.


Where does the Bible say this ? I don't recall anything about "science falsely so-called" ...

1 Timothy 6:20-21 - "20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith."

As for the claims about Hansen, Steve Milloy formerly of the CATO Institute, author of "Scare Pollution" and other books, and fighter agains junk science is also a lawyer and read Hansen's work. You probably don't have any respect for any "denier" I would quote from. The content of CO2 in the atmosphere is fact, Meteorology/Biology 101. Water vapor as well. Agenda 21, from the UN website. The UN Constitution from their site as well. Using words like "garbage" and "hoax" is my way of being polite, in that I know the agenda, and it is horrible. I've done considerable research in the ways of propaganda (i.e., "don't let a good crisis go to waste" and if there is none, create one), as current political agendas as means to ending republics, democratic and otherwise nationalism. The global community milieu being altered to better suit Communism than freedom. The days getting worse and worse are foretold in the Scriptures. Are you familiar with the Scriptures?
 
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tas8831

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It is pretty hard to define "moderate". I tend to think that almost any subject has infinite depth to be known. Getting a bachelors degree in s subject might be considered moderate or extensive. But compared to PhD and beyond it is minimal. The more one learns the more one realizes how little of a subject she or he knows.
I once read this little blurb, seems to hold (and, perhaps, also lends credence to the gist of the study):

When you earn a BS, you think you know everything
When you earn a MS, you realize how little you know
When you earn a PhD, you realize how little everyone knows
 
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tas8831

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Science cannot address God one way or the other. The supernatural is outside of the purview of scientific inquiry.
While I agree with this re: any kind of direct inquiry, I do think that science can address evidence that should be available were the deity in question real and it performed the acts ascribed to it.

A global flood, for example - if that occurred, evidence for it should be abundant, yet it is not.
 
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A_Thinker

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1 Timothy 6:20-21 - "20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith."

What translation is that ?
 
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essentialsaltes

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I disagree with the author.

It wasn't an opinion, it was a result. Certain variables were correlated in the study.

This is not to say that certain individuals can't buck the trend. No doubt they do. There are women taller than I am, but on average men are taller than women.
 
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It wasn't an opinion, it was a result. Certain variables were correlated in the study.

This is not to say that certain individuals can't buck the trend. No doubt they do. There are women taller than I am, but on average men are taller than women.

There is a lot of opinion and bias in psychological studies. There are trends, but overall generalizations are not logical.
 
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essentialsaltes

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There are trends, but overall generalizations are not logical.

A trend is a generalization of large quantities of data. On average men are taller than women. What we don't want to do is stereotype: "All men are taller than all women."
 
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A trend is a specific change in something being measured often found in statistical data. Generalizations inclusive by nature, of all things, create stereotypes of what is observed. They are non-specific by nature. Science is observing what constitutes laws of physics and trends of what is being observed that can be duplicated and quantified, repeating the same exact procedures. Many things such as the age of geological formations for example, are not science, in that such formations cannot be dated by any known means. Such attempts at dating using scientific equipment, which are employed in scientific method show that the radiometric dating systems, do not agree with each other, proving that dating the age of rock is non scientific. That the different radiometric dating types give differing results is fact. The results can be millions or even billions of years apart for the same rock formations, studies performed in the same labs by the same unbiased people.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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but think they know the most: study

The study involved genetically modified organisms, where there is little political bias to confuse the issue.

The more extreme the opposition, Fernbach and his co-authors found, the less people knew about the science and genetics, but the more their “self-assessed” knowledge — how much they thought they knew — increased.

“If somebody is well calibrated, those two things should be pretty highly correlated: If I know how much I know, then if I know a little I should say I know a little, and if I know a lot I should say I know a lot,” Fernbach explained. “Therefore there should be a high correlation between self-assessed and objective knowledge.

“And indeed, that’s actually true for the people who are moderate, or people who have the attitude that is consistent with the scientific consensus,” he said.

However, as people become more extreme, that relationship degrades and flips so that people who think they know more actually know less.
I notice they draw the obvious parallel with the Dunning-Kruger effect.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Generalizations inclusive by nature, of all things, create stereotypes of what is observed. They are non-specific by nature.

What, a generalization is not specific? You amaze me.

Many things such as the age of geological formations for example, are not science

In this thread, we've discussed two different reasons for radical opposition to scientific findings.
1) Ignorance (and ignorance of the ignorance)
2) allegiance to a tribal association.

If it makes you feel better, I don't think you're ignorant. You are a self-professed type 2. ("Many scientists produce science that the Bible warns us is false, as in "science falsely so-called."" "This does not condemn all science, just that which is false.")
 
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What, a generalization is not specific? You amaze me.



In this thread, we've discussed two different reasons for radical opposition to scientific findings.
1) Ignorance (and ignorance of the ignorance)
2) allegiance to a tribal association.

If it makes you feel better, I don't think you're ignorant. You are a self-professed type 2. ("Many scientists produce science that the Bible warns us is false, as in "science falsely so-called."" "This does not condemn all science, just that which is false.")

There are many scientific findings. Can you tell me which findings in particular you have in mind?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I have never seen/experienced such anti-reason in any other forum other than theology boards. It pains me to see the levels of irrationality and just disinterest in "unscriptural" evidence or realistic philosophy from posters here. I am sort of debating with myself in staying here - maybe i should just stop posting on this forum in order to save myself as being identified as a christian.
We get plenty of outsiders' viewpoints in these 'Physical & Life Sciences' sub-forums, which provides some rational balance...
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I disagree with the author. Some geniuses have made important scientific discoveries that went completely against "scientific" consensus, yet are scientifically proven to be true.
The author wasn't studying the discoveries of scientific geniuses, but the views of ordinary people.

It is false science to leave God out of the equation.
Where testable claims about God have been made, science has investigated - and either falsified the claims or found no supporting evidence. It has been tried.

Unfortunately, there are very few testable claims made about God.
 
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essentialsaltes

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There are many scientific findings. Can you tell me which findings in particular you have in mind?

Although you have claimed that geological dating is 'not science', it is a scientific fact that the earth is billions of years old.
 
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