Is it Idolatry?

Status
Not open for further replies.

bcbsr

Newbie
Mar 17, 2003
4,085
2,318
Visit site
✟201,456.00
Faith
Christian
the god is created by God Himself..
That what is alleged. If a person takes a piece of bread, or any other object for that matter, and claims that God creates the object into God, and worships that object which he alleges is God, is that idolatry? Or is it only idolatry to the person who doesn't believe that God makes the object into God? Does the Isaiah passage apply?

he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, "Save me; you are my god." Is 44:17
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hieronymus
Upvote 0

bcbsr

Newbie
Mar 17, 2003
4,085
2,318
Visit site
✟201,456.00
Faith
Christian
The OP is doing a roundabout way of talking about Eucharistic Adoration, using the term transubstantiated. That term is really only used in that context. Next time just speak plainly rather then make absurd threads
Don't understand what you find "absurd". Catholics do in fact worship the Eucharist of which they claim is Jesus, the Creator. I'm trying to understand how that is different than what Isaiah is talking about and with what twisted logic I'm suppose to reckon Catholics as not being idolators.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hieronymus
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,298
Tuscany
✟231,507.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's a general case. You could just as well apply it to a piece of toast. But it would be interesting to hear if people think that the answer depends on the type of object.
It doesn't depend on the type of object...
You know persons that think God is in a wooden cross?
I've never heard of this. Persons I know wear a cross as a witness or just to honor God.

Statues were used in earlier times to help people that were kind of ignorant to pray. They weren't praying to the statue itself,,,but to the person that the statue represented. People praying before a statue of Mary are praying to Mary...not to the statue.

BTW, you don''t really see this going on in Catholic churches anymore....
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,298
Tuscany
✟231,507.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The only form of worship of the Eucharist I know of is in the Roman tradition. And in that case, no person creates a god, the god is created by God Himself. The bread before the invocation is in fact made by a man, but can be discarded if need be. Only after the invocation does the bread become the body and blood of Christ, and that change is the act of God.
There's no such thing as the Roman tradition.
You mean the Latin Rite.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,298
Tuscany
✟231,507.00
Country
Italy
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Don't understand what you find "absurd". Catholics do in fact worship the Eucharist of which they claim is Jesus, the Creator. I'm trying to understand how that is different than what Isaiah is talking about and with what twisted logic I'm suppose to reckon Catholics as not being idolators.
I found it kind of absurd too, TTYTT.
The Eucharist is the ONLY object Catholics worship...and that's because they believe it's the body and blood of Jesus.

Having studied it, I have to say that I'm not totally sure they aren't correct.

I'm not willing to state one way or the other...
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,524
9,018
Florida
✟326,085.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
That what is alleged. If a person takes a piece of bread, or any other object for that matter, and claims that God creates the object into God, and worships that object which he alleges is God, is that idolatry? Or is it only idolatry to the person who doesn't believe that God makes the object into God? Does the Isaiah passage apply?

he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, "Save me; you are my god." Is 44:17

I certainly don't see it as idolatry. Paul speaks of the Eucharist as bread and wine, and then speaks of it as the body of the Lord. At some point the bread becomes the body of the Lord and it is not merely the act of a man.

A sacrament is God himself acting. Baptism is the removal of sin, but no amount of washing could ever achieve it. It is only God acting through the water of baptism that accomplishes it. No amount of baking bread will ever change it into the body of the Lord. It is only God acting on the bread that changes it.
 
Upvote 0

bcbsr

Newbie
Mar 17, 2003
4,085
2,318
Visit site
✟201,456.00
Faith
Christian
I certainly don't see it as idolatry. Paul speaks of the Eucharist as bread and wine, and then speaks of it as the body of the Lord. At some point the bread becomes the body of the Lord and it is not merely the act of a man.

A sacrament is God himself acting. Baptism is the removal of sin, but no amount of washing could ever achieve it. It is only God acting through the water of baptism that accomplishes it. No amount of baking bread will ever change it into the body of the Lord. It is only God acting on the bread that changes it.
I'm not into Sacramental theology. I reckon such things as symbolic rather then substantive. I'm sure the idolater of Isaiah 44 didn't reckon himself an idolater. He might have the idea that which he constructed the object, God then put himself into the object. When I went to Catholic church they would say, "Accept the offering made by our hands", referring to the Eucharist. In my Christian faith I don't accept the Catholic concept of transubstantiation. I don't accept the idea that the Eucharist is God.

So by what twisted logic am I supposed to reckon Catholics as not being idolaters? Is it just because they say so? Is it just because they don't think of their practice as idolatry? Is that it? They're doing practically the same thing as the man in Isaiah 44 as I see it. So how is it different?
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,524
9,018
Florida
✟326,085.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I'm not into Sacramental theology. I reckon such things as symbolic rather then substantive. I'm sure the idolater of Isaiah 44 didn't reckon himself an idolater. He might have the idea that which he constructed the object, God then put himself into the object. When I went to Catholic church they would say, "Accept the offering made by our hands", referring to the Eucharist. In my Christian faith I don't accept the Catholic concept of transubstantiation. I don't accept the idea that the Eucharist is God.

So by what twisted logic am I supposed to reckon Catholics as not being idolaters? Is it just because they say so? Is it just because they don't think of their practice as idolatry? Is that it? They're doing practically the same thing as the man in Isaiah 44 as I see it. So how is it different?

If I accept everything you have to say as true, when did that error first occur?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hieronymus

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
8,427
2,998
52
the Hague NL
✟69,862.00
Country
Netherlands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It doesn't depend on the type of object...
You know persons that think God is in a wooden cross?
People can use objects as some sort of portal to the deity they worship.
A deity can also use objects as a sort of portal.
 
Upvote 0

bcbsr

Newbie
Mar 17, 2003
4,085
2,318
Visit site
✟201,456.00
Faith
Christian
That the Church fell into idolatry.
Has it? That's my question. A little leavens the whole lump, a phrase which Paul applied to the church and therefore reckon such things a possibility. But the question I'm dealing with is how I'm not suppose to reckon that Catholic practice as being adolatrous.
 
Upvote 0

devin553344

I believe in the Resurrection
Nov 10, 2015
3,607
2,249
Unkown
✟93,810.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Isaiah 44:13-20 The carpenter measures with a line and makes an outline with a marker; he roughs it out with chisels and marks it with compasses. He shapes it in the form of man, of man in all his glory, that it may dwell in a shrine. He cut down cedars, or perhaps took a cypress or oak. He let it grow among the trees of the forest, or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow. It is man’s fuel for burning; some of it he takes and warms himself, he kindles a fire and bakes bread. But he also fashions a god and worships it; he makes an idol and bows down to it. Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill. He also warms himself and says, "Ah! I am warm; I see the fire." From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, "Save me; you are my god." They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand. No one stops to think, no one has the knowledge or understanding to say, "Half of it I used for fuel; I even baked bread over its coals, I roasted meat and I ate. Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left? Shall I bow down to a block of wood?" He feeds on ashes, a deluded heart misleads him; he cannot save himself, or say, "Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?"

So is it idolatry if one makes a wooden cross, for example, and assumes that the real presence of God is in the object, believing that God transubstantiates Himself into the wooden object, the wooden cross itself becoming God to that person, and so worships the wooden object which to them is God?

Is it idolatry only to the person who doesn't believe in the real presence of God in the object? Should the person who doesn't believe that God has transubstantiated Himself into the object consider the person who does believe such to be an idolator?

And does the Isaiah passage above apply?

If I take the definition of idolatry then one might draw the conclusion that it is idolatry:

Idolatry: extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.

apply that definition to Jesus as extreme admiration, love, or reference for Jesus who is a someone then it fails Idolatry. Then a something "of God" may also fail idolatry.

Now that the cross is representing God's sacrifice, so then it's not an idol but instead represents God's gift to mankind. In other words it is God and his power in a way. Therefore it cannot be God and an idol at the same time. An idol is representing some god to a person but is not the true God. :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bcbsr

Newbie
Mar 17, 2003
4,085
2,318
Visit site
✟201,456.00
Faith
Christian
People can use objects as some sort of portal to the deity they worship.
A deity can also use objects as a sort of portal.
That's one of the issue I brought up. The man of Isaiah 44, whom Isaiah is practically ridiculing, may claim that the object he made is a portal of God. So he may be claiming to worship God who has taken the form of his object. Yet Isaiah clearly views that very practice as idolatry.

So people using objects as some sort of portal to the diety they worship is what is known as idolatry.
 
Upvote 0

bcbsr

Newbie
Mar 17, 2003
4,085
2,318
Visit site
✟201,456.00
Faith
Christian
If I take the definition of idolatry then one might draw the conclusion that it is idolatry:

Idolatry: extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.

apply that definition to Jesus as extreme admiration, love, or reference for Jesus who is a someone then it fails Idolatry.

Now that the cross is representing God's sacrifice, so then it's not an idol but instead represents God's gift to mankind. In other words it is God and his power in a way. Therefore it cannot be God and an idol at the same time. An idol is representing some god to a person but is not the true God. :)
And what about the Catholic Eucharist?
 
Upvote 0

Hieronymus

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
8,427
2,998
52
the Hague NL
✟69,862.00
Country
Netherlands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Has it? That's my question. A little leavens the whole lump, a phrase which Paul applied to the church and therefore reckon such things a possibility. But the question I'm dealing with is how I'm not suppose to reckon that Catholic practice as being adolatrous.
Idolatry or not, people ought to know that beings from the unseen realm can "occupy" objects.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: devin553344
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,524
9,018
Florida
✟326,085.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Has it? That's my question. A little leavens the whole lump, a phrase which Paul applied to the church and therefore reckon such things a possibility. But the question I'm dealing with is how I'm not suppose to reckon that Catholic practice as being adolatrous.

If we look at it, it follows a simple logic. To worship Jesus is not idolatrous. The Eucharist is Jesus. Therefore, to worship the Eucharist is not idolatry.

Note that I am not Catholic, so I really don't have a dog in this fight.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

devin553344

I believe in the Resurrection
Nov 10, 2015
3,607
2,249
Unkown
✟93,810.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
And what about the Catholic Eucharist?

I think the conclusion I was able to understand was that anything or person, related to Jesus the Christ, The Holy Ghost or the Father God cannot be an idol since it is God or represents God. Idols by definition are false gods or something that represents false gods.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.