Is prohibiting female church leadership (over men) legalistic?

[Kerensa]

In almost every language into the mid 20th century, male gender was used to address both male and female.

Yes, and in the case of 1 Tim. 3:1, the wording in the Greek is ei tis — "if someone..." It's not actually gendered at all. The "if a man..." is a result of translation into English — in which it used to be common practice to use "man" and other masculine terms generically.

On top of that, again, 1 Timothy is probably not by Paul anyway.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Funny, but I thought it was hilarious (and I didn't write it, by the way — as I said, the source is obscure, but I provided a link to the site where I found it).

One of those traditional arguments is "Jesus didn't ordain any women." But the fact is, he didn't ordain any men either. So the argument works equally well both ways. That's the point of the "two wrongs don't make a right" comment — if it's "wrong" for people of one gender to be ordained because Jesus didn't do so, it must be equally "wrong" for the other gender to be ordained, since Jesus didn't do so either. That's all.

Yeah, I know that. But I like your wording here better than the wording there. It makes it clear that's the meaning. Probably some won't rate it funny, not because it's not, but because they are unsure on point 6.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

There are always some exceptions from a rule like in China, where there are 99% of women in local churches, so its impossible to find an experienced man to lead them, so women do it and I think its fine. But I am talking about the general principle.

I think this is the best argument so far for an exception to male leadership as defined in scripture.

The others require rejection of all or parts of scripture, or Paul's apostleship, or apply an interpretation that doesn't take into account Paul's relating his reasoning for male headship back to Adam and Eve, but the above argument seems to me to be consistent with the argument in Galatians (love is the motive), and even in the Old Testament (of necessity, when David took the bread only lawful for priests).

 

[Albion]

Paul is addressing only men.

" This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."
1 Timothy 3

?? It appears that he may be addressing only men, but he is speaking about men and men only in that verse.

 

[Albion]

How can you be a husband but not married?

There is no requirement that you be a husband, either. But if you are...

 

[Paidiske]

Your argument is outside the scope of this thread. I'm asking for scriptural reasons women should be permitted to have certain leadership roles over men, such as pastor or teacher.

Would you consider God calling those women, given the many Scriptural calls for obedience to God, to be a Scriptural reason?

 

[Zoii]

Its threads like this that show that Christianity is not for women.

 

[Seadish]

Gods laws are obsolete. They have been replaced by local government law.

Even in scripture about women being silent, it was becasue local law required it. Not becasue of religion.

We now live in the age of Grace through Jesus, which is a far better agreement.

All I can say with all due respect is Oh my,Gods law and His word are never obsolete. Local law also is saying it's ok for same sex couples to marry, that liquor and weed are legal in many places and that we as Christians have to silence and bend our beliefs to accomadate others. Godly people no longer allowed to refuse to bake a certain cake or in some places pray or hold Bible meetings in their own homes what's wrong has become right and God's judgement will come.I will never obey or accept mans law over God's. Just had to say.

 

[Kerensa]

Its threads like this that show that Christianity is not for women.

I totally understand where you're coming from, Zoii, but given there are plenty of women who are drawn to Christianity and indeed called to ministry — with the conviction that Christ does NOT require them to be inferior to men or submissive to men, but equal to men — that's a bit of a sweeping statement.

 

[SkyWriting]

All I can say with all due respect is Oh my,Gods law and His word are never obsolete. Local law also is saying it's ok for same sex couples to marry, that liquor and weed are legal in many places and that we as Christians have to silence and bend our beliefs to accommodate others. Godly people no longer allowed to refuse to bake a certain cake or in some places pray or hold Bible meetings in their own homes what's wrong has become right and God's judgement will come.I will never obey or accept mans law over God's. Just had to say.

Sure, that's a universal stand most all Christians have taken. But becasue of my fundamental learning I embraced for over two decades, I have to take scripture at face value, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Hebrews 8:12-13
12 For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.”
13 In saying, "new," He has made obsolete the first; and that which is growing old and aging is near vanishing.


Mans law is God's law, so you you better watch out, you better not cry:

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

 

[SkyWriting]

Would you consider God calling those women, given the many Scriptural calls for obedience to God, to be a Scriptural reason?

I wonder if God follows the golden rule of treatings others, as He would want to be treated?

 

[Seadish]

Sure, that's a universal stand most all Christians have taken. But becasue of my fundamental learning I embraced for over two decades, I have to take scripture at face value, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Hebrews 8:12-13
12 For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.”
13 In saying, "new," He has made obsolete the first; and that which is growing old and aging is near vanishing.


Mans law is God's law, so you you better watch out, you better not cry:

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Yes I know that Doesn't make all things good .

 

[SkyWriting]

Yes I know that Doesn't make all things good .

Matthew 19:16-17
And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good.

 

[Seadish]

I just thing a point is missed , that we are all supposed to let Him guide us to be as clean and righteous as He call us

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Would you consider God calling those women, given the many Scriptural calls for obedience to God, to be a Scriptural reason?

Of course this is a valid reason. Look at Deborah going to Barak. The difficulty is in accepting/demonstrating that such women really are called by God. In the example of Cornelius (going back to an earlier example), God gives a divine symbol of His favour on the gentile believers by giving them the Holy Spirit and these speaking in tongues, demonstrating that the "everlasting covenant" of circumcision and the rest of the OT law was no longer required for such believers.

To my knowledge, there's been no similar accompanying symbol demonstrating that Paul's instructions in scripture about women in certain leadership roles (i.e. over men) are obsolete.

 

[Kerensa]

Of course this is a valid reason. Look at Deborah going to Barak. The difficulty is in accepting/demonstrating that such women really are called by God. In the example of Cornelius (going back to an earlier example), God gives a divine symbol of His favour on the gentile believers by giving them the Holy Spirit and these speaking in tongues, demonstrating that the "everlasting covenant" of circumcision and the rest of the OT law was no longer required for such believers.

To my knowledge, there's been no similar accompanying symbol demonstrating that Paul's instructions in scripture about women in certain leadership roles (i.e. over men) are obsolete.

One could equally argue that there's no sign given in the Bible that democracy is a divinely sanctioned way of governing a nation, and yet one doesn't see too many Christians in democratic countries rushing to reinstate absolute monarchies.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

One could equally argue that there's no sign given in the Bible that democracy is a divinely sanctioned way of governing a nation, and yet one doesn't see too many Christians in democratic countries rushing to reinstate absolute monarchies.

True. But neither does it make democracy right. I for one prefer monarchy to democracy.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

?? It appears that he may be addressing only men, but he is speaking about men and men only in that verse.

OK , since this is speaking and directing men on the wisdom of leadership in the church , where in scripture does it give direction to women on the same issue?

 

[SkyWriting]

He was being facetious.

God's law is obsolete
Hebrews 8:13
and has been replaced by mans law.
Romans 13:1-7
1 Peter 2:13-17

If I must take scripture litterally,
then I become the lefty lunatic that I now am.

 

[SkyWriting]

True. But neither does it make democracy right. I for one prefer monarchy to democracy.

Fraid so:

Deuteronomy 16:18-20
“You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment. You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause of the righteous. Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.