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Is prohibiting female church leadership (over men) legalistic?

Is prohibiting female church leadership (over men) legalistic?


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bekkilyn

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The fact that God has called many women to be pastors and that he is still calling women to be pastors today makes it very clear that God himself has no issues with the idea, and the fact that Paul gives acclaim to his female co-workers in Christ who were leading and teaching (even to men, i.e. Apollos) makes it clear the the interpretations that forbid women to do much of anything, besides stay in the kitchen and make pie while popping out children left and right, are false interpretations.

It's actually pretty tiring to need to constantly prove that women are capable human beings designed (like men) in God's image over and over and over again. Aren't there more important things that we should be doing for God than worrying about who gets to dominate over who (which is an anti-Christ view in the first place) like the great commission of making disciples for Christ?
 
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bekkilyn

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If a woman wants to serve the Lord as Pastor, leading her small flock in righteousness, who can stop her? Only the congregation she is in. So be it.
But one big rant on this issue, I know of a woman Pastor that preaches God as a female. I believe this crosses the line and why I voted no.
Blessings

A lot of women pastors I know and/or have talked to didn't want to be pastors, and like Jonah, fled from it over and over again until they finally realized it was God calling them to the task.

I have the feeling that people in these discussions often think that a pastor is just like any other job or career, that people just sit down one day in high school or college and just decide to be a police officer, x-ray technician, pastor, or mail carrier, go and fill out an application, maybe take some extra classes and now you're on the pastor track to glory and fame and authoritative (vs. servant) leadership.

It just doesn't work that way with pastors. You're called, whether you want to be or not, and you have the choice either to keep running or to obey God, and it happens for men and women alike. If God is calling you to something, you will (at least eventually) very clearly know it as God tends to be very persistent with such things, like with Jonah.
 
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SkyWriting

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This has nothing to do with local law. Your answer should be consistent with what scripture teaches.

I try.

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

It is illegal to discriminate against children or parents because of race, color, gender, religion, age, disability, or national origin. Your state or local government may have added additional prohibitions against discriminating based on marital status, sexual orientation, or some other class.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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A lot of women pastors I know and/or have talked to didn't want to be pastors, and like Jonah, fled from it over and over again until they finally realized it was God calling them to the task.

I have the feeling that people in these discussions often think that a pastor is just like any other job or career, that people just sit down one day in high school or college and just decide to be a police officer, x-ray technician, pastor, or mail carrier, go and fill out an application, maybe take some extra classes and now you're on the pastor track to glory and fame and authoritative (vs. servant) leadership.

It just doesn't work that way with pastors. You're called, whether you want to be or not, and you have the choice either to keep running or to obey God, and it happens for men and women alike. If God is calling you to something, you will (at least eventually) very clearly know it as God tends to be very persistent with such things, like with Jonah.

I understand. I guess I have to go with what scripture describes as a person who is called to lead a flock. BTW what are your thoughts on the 12 that were called? They are all men. Would have been nice to have one or two females included in the 12 but Jesus did not choose any women. Do you think there is a reason for that? Just curious.
Blessings
 
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bekkilyn

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I understand. I guess I have to go with what scripture describes as a person who is called to lead a flock. BTW what are your thoughts on the 12 that were called? They are all men. Would have been nice to have one or two females included in the 12 but Jesus did not choose any women. Do you think there is a reason for that? Just curious.
Blessings

Well, with twelve Jewish men as apostles, then Jesus' status as a Rabbi could not be questioned. If we are going to use the twelve apostles as a condition, then Gentile men also wouldn't qualify to shepherd a flock. There were also no Chinese apostles either, so many races would be disqualified as well. Many of the anti-women views come from misinterpretations of scripture, much of it originating from pagan Greco-Roman philosophy in attempts to make Christianity more palatable to Rome.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Well, with twelve Jewish men as apostles, then Jesus' status as a Rabbi could not be questioned. If we are going to use the twelve apostles as a condition, then Gentile men also wouldn't qualify to shepherd a flock. There were also no Chinese apostles either, so many races would be disqualified as well. Many of the anti-women views come from misinterpretations of scripture, much of it originating from pagan Greco-Roman philosophy in attempts to make Christianity more palatable to Rome.

Strictly talking about gender not race or status. Also, I believe Pagan philosophy regarded women pretty high as they were Priestesses and oracles of high regard. It would be more palatable to pagans if women were in leadership roles. This is why Mary was venerated at an early point in Roman Christianity eventually receiving the status of "queen of heaven". But I am going off topic interesting study though!

" Communication with a god was no small matter, and not just anyone could be allowed or trusted to serve this venerated position. It was decided that a pure, chaste and honest young virgin would be the most appropriate vessel for such a divine role."
 
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JackRT

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The issue of womens' role in the church is not as clear cut as some people would want to think. The letters of Paul, which date to the middle of the first century AD, provide some clues. For example, Paul greets Prisca, Junia, Julia, and Nereus' sister, who worked and traveled as missionaries in pairs with their husbands or brothers (Romans 16:3, 7, 15) as equals and co-workers. Junia is praised as a prominent apostle, imprisoned for her faith. Mary and Persis are commended for their hard work (Romans 16:6, 12). Euodia and Syntyche are called his fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3). Women were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19), Lydia of Thyatira (Acts 16:15) and Nympha of Laodicea (Colossians 4:15). Women held offices and played significant roles in group worship, such as the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1) and women were certainly praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11). An order of widows served formal roles of ministry (I Timothy 5:9-10). Women prophets included Mary Magdalene, the Corinthian women, Philip's daughters, Ammia of Philadelphia, Philumene, the visionary martyr Perpetua, Maximilla, Priscilla (Prisca), and Quintilla.

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men and in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himslf seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonomously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today. As a Christian I am convinced that we should make every effort to ensure the full equality of women in every aspect of the life of our churches and in society at large.

Any organization, religious or secular and including marriage, that fails to include women in leadership roles right up to the very top is guilty of several evils. First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy. Second, it is the insult to God by denigrating half of God’s creation. If we continue to treat women in this way, then the human race is condemned to stand on one foot, see with one eye, hear with one ear and think with one half the human mind ---- and it shows.
 
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YeshuaFan

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Just about every where a female name is mentioned, whether the church was in their house or they welcomed others in. It’s vanity to imagine that wasn’t the case.
Never stated though that any of them were as Pastors or elders, and all scriptures who mentioned them was for men!
 
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YeshuaFan

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It has been said before, but for this kind of discussion to be effective it is necessary to recognize that some Protestants--not the mainstream of Protestantism, to be sure--think that women should be silent in church, period, and not have any position that could be considered as being above men.

BUT most churches which take the generally negative position about this matter think that God intended that men be the pastors, not that women should have no roles in any way amounting to "leadership." In those churches, women occupy many leadership positions, but just not as ordained ministers/priests. The majority of the world's Christians belong to these churches.
We Baptists have a long history of women missionaries and teachers in say children church and in women ministries, can be basically involved in any area save for the pastor and Elders positions!
 
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bekkilyn

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Strictly talking about gender not race or status. Also, I believe Pagan philosophy regarded women pretty high as they were Priestesses and oracles of high regard. It would be more palatable to pagans if women were in leadership roles. This is why Mary was venerated at an early point in Roman Christianity eventually receiving the status of "queen of heaven". But I am going off topic interesting study though!

" Communication with a god was no small matter, and not just anyone could be allowed or trusted to serve this venerated position. It was decided that a pure, chaste and honest young virgin would be the most appropriate vessel for such a divine role."

We can't be strict about gender, not race or status, if we are going to make an argument that women cannot be leaders because the twelve apostles were all male. They also weren't Gentiles and they also weren't Chinese among many other races. The argument completely falls apart.

Pagan philosophy did not rate women very highly at all. Many of these priestesses were temple prostitutes. These virgin oracles were basically enslaved to their temples and not allowed to leave or have any autonomy. Women in general had very few economic rights in many areas within the Roman empire, outside of Rome and Macedonia.

Do these sound like some of the familiar anti-woman arguments here on CF, stated under the guise of being scriptural? Many of the early church writers were heavily influenced by this philosophy and studied it to the same degree as scripture, and the church became more and more anti-woman and began to bar women from leadership roles as it became more and more structured.

"The male, unless constituted in some respect contrary to nature, is by nature more expert at leading than the female, and the elder and complete than the younger and incomplete." - Aristotle

"The relation of male to female is by nature a relation of superior to inferior and ruler to ruled." - Aristotle

"The slave is wholly lacking the deliberative element; the female has it but it lacks authority; the child has it but it is incomplete." - Aristotle

"Women and men have the same nature in respect to the guardianship of the state, save insofar as the one is weaker and the other is stronger." - Plato

"The relation of male to female is by nature a relation of superior to inferior and ruler to ruled." - Plato

"Wherefore women are more compassionate and more readily made to weep, more jealous and querulous, founder of the railing, and more contentious. The female also is more subject to depression of spirits and despair than the male. She is also more shameless and false, more readily deceived, and more mindful of injury, more watchful, more idle, and on the whole less excitable than the male. On the contrary, the male is more ready to help, and, as it has been said, braver than the female; and even in malaria, if the sepia is struck with a trident, the male comes to help the female, but the female makes her escape if the male is struck." - Plato

This is the philosophical lens many were looking through and was ingrained into them while interpreting scripture such as Paul's letters. It ignores cultural context and Paul's mission as well as his acclaim of his female co-workers in Christ who were leading and teaching. When you look at scripture through a Christian lens that assumes we are to love each other as Christ loves his church, we realize that we cannot interpret scripture assuming any sort of human domination over others, but that we are to all be servants of one another.
 
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trophy33

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Roles are different.

As a man cannot represent Mary, so also a woman cannot represent the head of the church.

There are always some exceptions from a rule like in China, where there are 99% of women in local churches, so its impossible to find an experienced man to lead them, so women do it and I think its fine. But I am talking about the general principle.
 
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bekkilyn

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Roles are different.

As a man cannot represent Mary, so also a woman cannot represent the head of the church.

There are always some exceptions from a rule like in China, where there are 99% of women in local churches, so its impossible to find an experienced man to lead them, so women do it and I think its fine. But I am talking about the general principle.

Why would anyone be representing Mary? We are all to be ambassadors of *Christ*.
 
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RDKirk

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I believe scripture means what it says. When it talks about women not being in charge of men, I'm happy enough that I've understood what it means. But do times change?

1 Cor 14:33 - 35
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

1 Tim 2:11 - 15
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

In Genesis, the sign of (physical) circumcision was supposed to be an everlasting covenant. But in the NT, physical circumcision and the Old Testament laws were done away with (fulfilled in Christ). Although Gentiles were still not supposed to eat meat with blood, or commit sexual immorality. I can understand this - New Testament, New Covenant.

But, wasn't part of the sign from God that the OT laws need no longer be adhered to by NT believers, that the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles (e.g. Cornelius and his household). What about women teachers who claim (or appear to have) the Holy Spirit poured out on them? Is this false, as there is no new covenant since the New Covenant?

So what about when women defy these verses, but are acting with genuine love to their congregations? (Not that I have seen this). What about if there are no male Christians in a newly established church, or if the only male Christians are recent converts? Is it too legalistic to say that women can never teach or have authority over a man?

Where Paul states "as the Law also says", what about Deborah, whom God specifically sent to Barack? I guess she wasn't teaching a man (or men). Is the no women rule a general good rule to follow, but when/if God wants, He would demonstrate that His exception is inspired by Him?

I'd be interested in thoughts that are consistent with scripture, but not the tired old excuses like "that was just the culture at that time" or similar, when Paul clearly links the requirement for women not to be leaders to Eve's sin (which is timeless).

(Oh - by the way - I'm probably what some might consider a somewhat (male) chauvinist. I like the idea of women getting married, staying home and being pregnant by the kitchen sink, but I know there's not a bible verse that says it that way. I also have known one or two women to be better than most men at what they do, and several online that are smarter than a roomful of rocket scientists - certainly moreso than me. I think that if scripture didn't prohibit it, I wouldn't mind the idea of women leading men).

Thanks for your comments, and please be civil.

So what are you doing with:

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -- Galatians 3
 
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YeshuaFan

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So what are you doing with:

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -- Galatians 3
One in spiritual blessings, but not one as in same roles and positions assigned by God!
 
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YeshuaFan

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We can't be strict about gender, not race or status, if we are going to make an argument that women cannot be leaders because the twelve apostles were all male. They also weren't Gentiles and they also weren't Chinese among many other races. The argument completely falls apart.

Pagan philosophy did not rate women very highly at all. Many of these priestesses were temple prostitutes. These virgin oracles were basically enslaved to their temples and not allowed to leave or have any autonomy. Women in general had very few economic rights in many areas within the Roman empire, outside of Rome and Macedonia.

Do these sound like some of the familiar anti-woman arguments here on CF, stated under the guise of being scriptural? Many of the early church writers were heavily influenced by this philosophy and studied it to the same degree as scripture, and the church became more and more anti-woman and began to bar women from leadership roles as it became more and more structured.

"The male, unless constituted in some respect contrary to nature, is by nature more expert at leading than the female, and the elder and complete than the younger and incomplete." - Aristotle

"The relation of male to female is by nature a relation of superior to inferior and ruler to ruled." - Aristotle

"The slave is wholly lacking the deliberative element; the female has it but it lacks authority; the child has it but it is incomplete." - Aristotle

"Women and men have the same nature in respect to the guardianship of the state, save insofar as the one is weaker and the other is stronger." - Plato

"The relation of male to female is by nature a relation of superior to inferior and ruler to ruled." - Plato

"Wherefore women are more compassionate and more readily made to weep, more jealous and querulous, founder of the railing, and more contentious. The female also is more subject to depression of spirits and despair than the male. She is also more shameless and false, more readily deceived, and more mindful of injury, more watchful, more idle, and on the whole less excitable than the male. On the contrary, the male is more ready to help, and, as it has been said, braver than the female; and even in malaria, if the sepia is struck with a trident, the male comes to help the female, but the female makes her escape if the male is struck." - Plato

This is the philosophical lens many were looking through and was ingrained into them while interpreting scripture such as Paul's letters. It ignores cultural context and Paul's mission as well as his acclaim of his female co-workers in Christ who were leading and teaching. When you look at scripture through a Christian lens that assumes we are to love each other as Christ loves his church, we realize that we cannot interpret scripture assuming any sort of human domination over others, but that we are to all be servants of one another.
Main reason that there is any real discussion on this subject is that the modern culture just cannot accept that there are gender based roles and positions, and that somehow either God got this wrong, or the scriptures are male biased etc..
The real truth is that God decided that the pattern is male headship, as God intends men to be head of the family and head of the Churches, under the Lordship of Christ!
 
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bekkilyn

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Main reason that there is any real discussion on this subject is that the modern culture just cannot accept that there are gender based roles and positions, and that somehow either God got this wrong, or the scriptures are male biased etc..
The real truth is that God decided that the pattern is male headship, as God intends men to be head of the family and head of the Churches, under the Lordship of Christ!

There is no scriptural support that God's original design is for one gender to dominate over another, and Christians are to be promoting God's kingdom here on earth and not the worldly kingdom of sin and Satan. The false doctrine of male headship is not only anti-Christian, but falls apart when examining scripture within it's correct new covenant context, which is about servanthood and mutual submission in Christ.
 
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SkyWriting

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Main reason that there is any real discussion on this subject is that the modern culture just cannot accept that there are gender based roles and positions, and that somehow either God got this wrong, or the scriptures are male biased etc..
The real truth is that God decided that the pattern is male headship, as God intends men to be head of the family and head of the Churches, under the Lordship of Christ!

God has set up governments to decide this.

1 Peter 2:13-17
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.



Discrimination based on sex or gender is illegal.

And it fails other scripture tests as well:

Hold (others) in the same esteem, as you would wish others to treat you.
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Not old letters to the churches.
 
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bekkilyn

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One in spiritual blessings, but not one as in same roles and positions assigned by God!

And yet God calls both women and men into these roles and positions every single day, so it seems that it is not God who is denying women the ability to serve him according to the physical and spiritual gifts he has given them, but sinful human beings who have contorted God's design to favor their own superiority and pride rather than to humbly serve as Christ requires of them.
 
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YeshuaFan

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There is no scriptural support that God's original design is for one gender to dominate over another, and Christians are to be promoting God's kingdom here on earth and not the worldly kingdom of sin and Satan. The false doctrine of male headship is not only anti-Christian, but falls apart when examining scripture within it's correct new covenant context, which is about servanthood and mutual submission in Christ.
You would have to then totally disregard what Paul taught on this issue!
 
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YeshuaFan

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God has set up governments to decide this.

1 Peter 2:13-17
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.



Discrimination based on sex or gender is illegal.

And it fails other scripture tests as well:

Hold (others) in the same esteem, as you would wish others to treat you.
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Not old letters to the churches.
God ordaining that men only can be authorized to be the pastor or elders is NOT discriminating, for does he not have the capability to do this as He deems fit?
And the Bible is not old letters, but the living and active and authoritative word of God to us today!
 
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