The 3rd Temple Problem for those outside of Christianity

[Erik Nelson]

How many times does Lord Rothschild give God credit for creating the modern State of Israel, in the presentation below?

.

lord Rothschild is perfectly honest about where his primary loyalties reside

he is a world leader, and his words speak for his entire global community

 

[John 1720]

1. Paul was referring to an impostor who would situate himself, and arrogate spiritual authority, within the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively the Church.
2. In his epistles, Paul refers to the temple exclusively from a spiritual perspective (“naos” in the Greek).
3. The early Church recognized the existing imperial Roman empire as “he who letteth (withholdeth)”, i.e. the restraining influence forestalling the emergence of the man of sin.
4. Paul's inspired prescience saw fulfillment in the Roman papacy, which emerged from the dissolution of the imperial Roman empire, which claimed ultimate and complete spiritual authority within the Church, and which ultimately apostasized into the man of sin claiming to be "God on the earth".

2Chronicles 6:18 ​

• “But will God indeed dwell with men on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built! – Solomon​

Isaiah 66:1 Thus says the LORD:​

• “Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest?​

Daniel 2:44-46​

• "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure." Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face, prostrate.​

Acts 7:48​

• However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:​

Hebrews 9:24​

• For Christ did not enter a man-made copy of the true sanctuary, but He entered heaven itself, now to appear on our behalf in the presence of God.​

Hi Sir,
I do agree with your 2nd point, wholeheartedly. Paul indeed reiterated the shared apostolic understanding that Christ is the true temple of His Church. Many passages, of course, support this. It is probably worthwhile to list them empirically; for one, the Lord, Jesus, Himself gave His Disciples the understanding of the true Temple.
John 2:19-22

• Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
• Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
• But He (Jesus) was speaking of the temple of His body.
• Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

Our Lord also taught His disciples the concept of His Body and the union of love between Him and those who love and trust in Him as both Lord and Savior.
Matthew 25:40-41

• “And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, in as much as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
• Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, in as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

John also, speaking prophetically, shares this promise from Christ
Revelation 3:12

• “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

Peter, also perfectly comprehends both Christ’s teaching on the Temple, which is not built with human hands. Additionally he teaches with a deep grasp on the spiritual understanding of what the ‘Body of Christ’ is. His passage here illustrates to us that this was a primary teaching of the Church at large and he fuses the context of Christ's temple, not built with human hands, to the stones or members of that temple, namely the body of believers.
1 Peter 2:4-10

• Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,​
• "Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, elect, precious, and he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”​
• Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,
• “The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone,”
• and “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.”
• They stumble, being disobedient to the Word, to which they also were appointed. But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Paul, later also reiterated this apostolic teaching, apprehending, by the grace of God, the same understanding.

2 Corinthians 5:1 ​

• Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,…​

1 Corinthians 3:16​

• Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 6:19

• Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:16

• And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
  
• “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

Ephesians 2:20

• having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Hebrews 3:6

• but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

So, yes I wholeheartedly agree that Paul also professed apostolic orthodox belief and understanding of the Spiritual Temple with Christ as the Chief cornerstone and Lord of the House.

However, I believe points 1, 3 and 4 that you make are much more speculative, with regard to Biblical exegesis, in my humble opinion.

Now,

1. concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way.
2. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
3. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
4. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
5. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

With regard to your other postulates, I'll defer to the contextual numbers embedded in the quote from Scripture above for reference, rather that repeat the verses.

1. "Paul was referring to an impostor who would situate himself, and arrogate spiritual authority, within the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively the Church."
   • Since Christ has already been proclaimed as Lord of the Spiritual temple this hypothesis is problematic. it would appear that it would be quite impossible for Satan's progeny to supplant himself on upon the Mercy Seat that Christ already occupies. Even if the context is a living stone they must in fact be a true believer and so Christ is still truly on the throne. If the man of perdition is on the throne then they are not the Lord's in the first place. Jesus also said that 'the gates of hell would not prevail' over His Church and so I believe it never has, nor will it ever, since the blood of the martyrs is
2. Already previously agreed upon
3. The early Church recognized the existing imperial Roman empire as “he who letteth (withholdeth)”, i.e. the restraining influence forestalling the emergence of the man of sin.
   • While I can understand how one might draw that as a possible conclusion, I really don't see any empirical evidence of this. Therefore, I'd tend to say this conclusion is speculative. My reason for arguing against it is manifold but perhaps context #4 of the Scripture quote is the most revealing, since it alludes to the Lord's coming and not to institution of Roman Popes. The sword of His mouth also follows Revelation 19:21 , which speaks in contextually to the return of Christ. So this is obviously end times that Paul speaks of and not post Constantine time, nor reformation time. With respect to the end time we so not know the day nor the hour thereof. Surely in every generation we have had to deal with tyrants and men who are shadow of that man of perdition, however, it readily appears Paul is talking about, 'the son of perdition' and not his shadowy minions and false prophets that have preceded him. Revelation 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse.
4. Paul's inspired prescience saw fulfillment in the Roman papacy, which emerged from the dissolution of the imperial Roman empire, which claimed ultimate and complete spiritual authority within the Church, and which ultimately apostasized into the man of sin claiming to be "God on the earth".
   • I understand this is one of those interpretive theories from Revelation that have held long standing sway with some over the last 4 centuries or so but, on the heels of my answer to hypothesis #3 above, I believe IMHO that is an incorrect alignment.
   • Certainly we see no evidence of it in the first 1500 years of Christ's Church, and the notion that Christ had no disciples back then, save the Apostles themselves, does a grave injustice to the work of the Holy Spirit; who quickens us in every generation to Christ.
   • We do see evidence of apostacies in the early Gnostic, as well as syncretism of other forms of Pagan religions, and lastly the apostic influences of secular governments attempting to create an unholy marriage between secular power and the Church; in order to merge and control their power base.
   • But we also have a great deal of empirical evidences, comprised by many Christians, who wrote numerous and lengthy apologetics against these incursions; as well as a host of witnesses and martyrs that spoke out against such apostasies and were silenced.
   • So the Lord always leaves a remnant of his people on the front lines, just as he did in Elijah's time 1 Kings 19:18 . No matter how dark the days may become He is still the Lord of every age.

• 
  Anyhow that my two cents worth and hat's about all for now.

In Christ, Patrick

 

[iamlamad]

Christians already know the 3rd Temple will be for the coming of the Anti-Christ, it is really amazing how this is all set up as it was engineered to happen (About the prophecy coming true not the coming of the Anti-Christ.) But those outside of Christianity may not know of this, hopefully, they will have Bibles around. The Third Temple for Judaism is in preparation for the coming of the Rabbinic Messiah (The Anti-Christ).

There is no priesthood, the Romans destroyed the records of the priesthood along with the 2nd temple in 70AD, and any existing record has disappeared. Not one can prove they are a priest descendant from Aaron. When Ezra had the building for the 2nd temple, if a priest could not provide proof of his ancestry from the tribe of Levi they were not allowed in the temple. And there isn't one person no matter who they are, that can prove their priesthood. So no priesthood, no temple.

In Jerimiah CHP3
The Prophet Jerimiah proclaimed that at the coming of the New Covenant, that the temple would no longer be needed (discontinued). Ezekial temple is figurative for the Church.

The only true temple is the Church, and there is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.

so any hopes and plans for the Third Temple for those outside of Christianity self-destructed. Blood Atonement for Sins happened at the Cross.

NOT! Ezekiel's temple will be the Millennial Reign Temple.
You are thinking church age, but God thinks outside of that box. The Jews that go into the millennial reign of Christ will not be a part of the church. Hold your horses! They STILL enter through Jesus Christ. They just will not believe in Him until after the church has been raptured.

 

[iamlamad]

Hi Sir,
I do agree with your 2nd point, wholeheartedly. Paul indeed reiterated the shared apostolic understanding that Christ is the true temple of His Church. Many passages, of course, support this. It is probably worthwhile to list them empirically; for one, the Lord, Jesus, Himself gave His Disciples the understanding of the true Temple.
John 2:19-22

• Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
• Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
• But He (Jesus) was speaking of the temple of His body.
• Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

Our Lord also taught His disciples the concept of His Body and the union of love between Him and those who love and trust in Him as both Lord and Savior.
Matthew 25:40-41

• “And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, in as much as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
• Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, in as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

John also, speaking prophetically, shares this promise from Christ
Revelation 3:12

• “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

Peter, also perfectly comprehends both Christ’s teaching on the Temple, which is not built with human hands. Additionally he teaches with a deep grasp on the spiritual understanding of what the ‘Body of Christ’ is. His passage here illustrates to us that this was a primary teaching of the Church at large and he fuses the context of Christ's temple, not built with human hands, to the stones or members of that temple, namely the body of believers.
1 Peter 2:4-10

• Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,​
• "Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, elect, precious, and he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”​
• Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,
• “The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone,”
• and “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.”
• They stumble, being disobedient to the Word, to which they also were appointed. But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Paul, later also reiterated this apostolic teaching, apprehending, by the grace of God, the same understanding.

2 Corinthians 5:1 ​

• Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,…​

1 Corinthians 3:16​

• Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 6:19

• Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:16

• And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
  
• “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

Ephesians 2:20

• having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Hebrews 3:6

• but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

So, yes I wholeheartedly agree that Paul also professed apostolic orthodox belief and understanding of the Spiritual Temple with Christ as the Chief cornerstone and Lord of the House.

However, I believe points 1, 3 and 4 that you make are much more speculative, with regard to Biblical exegesis, in my humble opinion.

With regard to your other postulates, I'll defer to the contextual numbers embedded in the quote from Scripture above for reference, rather that repeat the verses.

1. "Paul was referring to an impostor who would situate himself, and arrogate spiritual authority, within the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively the Church."
   • Since Christ has already been proclaimed as Lord of the Spiritual temple this hypothesis is problematic. it would appear that it would be quite impossible for Satan's progeny to supplant himself on upon the Mercy Seat that Christ already occupies. Even if the context is a living stone they must in fact be a true believer and so Christ is still truly on the throne. If the man of perdition is on the throne then they are not the Lord's in the first place. Jesus also said that 'the gates of hell would not prevail' over His Church and so I believe it never has, nor will it ever, since the blood of the martyrs is
2. Already agreed upon
3. The early Church recognized the existing imperial Roman empire as “he who letteth (withholdeth)”, i.e. the restraining influence forestalling the emergence of the man of sin.
   • While I can understand how one might draw that as a possible conclusion, I really don't see any empirical evidence of this. Therefore, I'd tend to say this conclusion is speculative. My reason for arguing against it is manifold but perhaps context #4 of the Scripture quote is the most revealing, since it alludes to the Lord's coming not to institution of Popes. The sword of His mouth also follows Revelation 19:21 which speaks in context with Christ's return. So this is end time, not reformation time, which we know not the day nor the hour of. Surely in every generation we have had to deal with tyrants and men who are shadow of that man of perdition, however, it readily appears Paul is talking about, 'the son of perdition' and not his shadowy minions and false prophets that have preceded him. Revelation 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse.
   • 
     Paul's inspired prescience saw fulfillment in the Roman papacy, which emerged from the dissolution of the imperial Roman empire, which claimed ultimate and complete spiritual authority within the Church, and which ultimately apostasized into the man of sin claiming to be "God on the earth".
   • I understand this is one of those interpretive theories from Revelation that have held long standing sway with some over the last 4 centuries or so but, on the heels of my answer to hypothesis #3 above, I believe IMHO that is an incorrect alignment.
   • Certainly we see no evidence of it in the first 1500 years of Christ's Church, and the notion that Christ had no disciples back then, save the Apostles themselves, does a grave injustice to the work of the Holy Spirit; who quickens us in every generation to Christ.
   • We see evidence of apostacy in the early Gnostic, as well as syncretism of other forms of Pagan religions, and lastly the influence of secular governments which attempted to merge and marry secular power with the Church. But we also have empirical evidence of many Christians who wrote numerous and lengthy apologetics against this as well as witnesses and martyrs that spoke out against such apostasies. The Lord always leaves a remnant of his people on the front lines .No matter how dark the days may become He is still the Lord of every age.

Anyhow that my two cents worth and hat's about all for now.
In Christ, Patrick

In 2 Thes. 2, Paul was making reference to the brick and mortar temple the Jews will soon build, NOT to the human spirits of believers. It is the same temple John was told to measure.

 

[iamlamad]

I say hurry up & build it so we can go home!!

Sorry, but the new temple in Jerusalem will have no bearing on the timing of the rapture. God is waiting for the final martyr of the church age.

 

[John 1720]

NOT! Ezekiel's temple will be the Millennial Reign Temple.
You are thinking church age, but God thinks outside of that box. The Jews that go into the millennial reign of Christ will not be a part of the church. Hold your horses! They STILL enter through Jesus Christ. They just will not believe in Him until after the church has been raptured.

References please!

 

[iamlamad]

Hosea 3 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

This prophecy links the return of the kingdom and even David who is also promised to return in Jer and Eze with the at the same time the sanctuary (temple) is also returned after many days without either king or sanctuary. You are right jesus did predict the destruction of the Temple but also said Jerusalem shall be trampled by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles had ended. Jesus warned Daniels abomination of desolation was a future event. Rev has the beast given authority of the dragon for 42 months at which time the false prophet requires the mark of the beast and the worship of the image of the beast. 42 months would be the middle of the week. 2 Thes 2 speaks of the coming of the LORD not occurring until the man of sin is revealed. He is clearly identified and called the son of perdition and like the best in Rev is not destroyed until the coming of the LORD. This cannot have been Nero.

here is the prophecy Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[fn] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[fn] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[fn] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. NOTE: he must declare himself to be some sort of God and make great blasphemy. This is again matching Rev 13 adn Dan 7 the one speaking pompous words. Look here how and when the lawless one is destroyed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[fn] who now restrains will do so until He[fn] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Rev 20 and Dan 7 both show great persecution for 3 1/2 years by one who is destroyed at the 2nd coming. If these prophecies are not literal then why would every aspect of the literal interpretation be lined up with momentum and specific directions heading in the expected timeline of events?

2 Thes 2 speaks of the coming of the LORD not occurring until the man of sin is revealed.

I don't think you are reading this scripture as the author intended. Did you notice that in verse 3b the man of sin IS revealed (in Paul's argument.) Did you wonder why Paul wrote, "and now you know" referring to who the restrainer is?

Since the man of sin IS revealed in verse 3b, then the restrainer must have been "taken out of the way" in verse 3a. There is only one possibility in 3a as the restrainer being taken out of the way. It is hidden in the word, "apostasia." This is a compound word: Apo and stasia.

If we look at Strong's under Apo, we find a part of a whole [group] removed spatially to another location, while the rest of the whole group are standing or stationary. This fits the rapture perfectly: the rapture will take place so fast, it will seem as if the world stood still. The first few translations into English translated this word as "departing." Indeed, the church WILL depart or be "taken out of the way."

The truth then, is that the rapture MUST take place before the man of sin is revealed, for it is the Holy Spirit, working through the church, that is restraining.

 

[Douggg]

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.



Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.

.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Does not fit 70 ad.

I don't know why any Christian should fight that the Jews are making ready to rebuild their temple - because it is a sign that our redemption draws near.

Do you not realize that you are fighting against what Jesus said would be signs to look up our redemption draws near? To what end is your theology? You have lost sight of the blessed hope.

 

[iamlamad]

References please!

Why would God spend page after page, chapter after chapter, speaking of a temple that will never exist? He would not! What is the time frame of Ezekiel 38 and 39? I am convinced this is another look at the battle of Armageddon. And shortly after that battle, the Millennial reign will begin. John is told to measure the new temple and the worshipers inside that temple. Make no mistake, it will be a brick and mortar building. Will it be Ezekiel's temple? Perhaps it will be a part of it. Perhaps not. The bible does not tell us.

AS for the Jews, you know the scriptures, how some will flee into the wilderness and be protected. When they SEE with their eyes the nail prints in Jesus hands, THEN they will believe in their Messiah. They will be allowed entrance into the millennial kingdom.

 

[BABerean2]

Oh really? As far as I can tell the Dome of the Rock is still on the Temple Mount.

The area now known as "The Temple Mount" is the remains of Roman Fort Antonia.

During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada said the only thing left of Jerusalem was that built by the Romans.

The Temple Mount and Fort Antonia

...................................................................

Fort Antonia and the Jewish Temple:

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.



Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.



Mar 15:16 Then the soldiers led Him away into the hall called Praetorium, and they called together the whole garrison.


Act_23:35 he said, "I will hear you when your accusers also have come." And he commanded him to be kept in Herod's Praetorium.


The following comes from Wars of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book 5, Chapter 5, Section 8.


8. Now as to the tower of Antonia, it was situated at the corner of two cloisters of the court of the temple; of that on the west, and that on the north; it was erected upon a rock of fifty cubits in height, and was on a great precipice; it was the work of king Herod, wherein he demonstrated his natural magnanimity. In the first place, the rock itself was covered over with smooth pieces of stone, from its foundation, both for ornament, and that any one who would either try to get up or to go down it might not be able to hold his feet upon it. Next to this, and before you come to the edifice of the tower itself, there was a wall three cubits high; but within that wall all the space of the tower of Antonia itself was built upon, to the height of forty cubits. The inward parts had the largeness and form of a palace, it being parted into all kinds of rooms and other conveniences, such as courts, and places for bathing, and broad spaces for camps; insomuch that, by having all conveniences that cities wanted, it might seem to be composed of several cities, but by its magnificence it seemed a palace. And as the entire structure resembled that of a tower, it contained also four other distinct towers at its four corners; whereof the others were but fifty cubits high; whereas that which lay upon the southeast corner was seventy cubits high, that from thence the whole temple might be viewed; but on the corner where it joined to the two cloisters of the temple, it had passages down to them both, through which the guard (for there always lay in this tower a Roman legion) went several ways among the cloisters, with their arms, on the Jewish festivals, in order to watch the people, that they might not there attempt to make any innovations; for the temple was a fortress that guarded the city, as was the tower of Antonia a guard to the temple; and in that tower were the guards of those three (14). There was also a peculiar fortress belonging to the upper city, which was Herod’s palace; but for the hill Bezetha, it was divided from the tower Antonia, as we have already told you; and as that hill on which the tower of Antonia stood was the highest of these three, so did it adjoin to the new city, and was the only place that hindered the sight of the temple on the north. And this shall suffice at present to have spoken about the city and the walls about it, because I have proposed to myself to make a more accurate description of it elsewhere.


Josephus said Fort Antonia was built upon a gigantic rock.


This provides tremendous evidence that the Dome of the Rock is the true location of Fort Antonia.


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[BABerean2]

You have lost sight of the blessed hope.

Tit_2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

I can still see when someone is quoting only part of a verse to make their man-made doctrine work.

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[John 1720]

In 2 Thes. 2, Paul was making reference to the brick and mortar temple the Jews will soon build, NOT to the human spirits of believers. It is the same temple John was told to measure.

I never stated the 3rd (physical temple) wouldn't be built. I think you need to read the post a little more thoroughly sir. What I said is that the true temple is the Body of Christ, and not brick and mortar, and I state that just as Jesus did. However I do believe the shadow symbol of the true temple will be rebuilt, and that is in keeping with end time prophecy.

 

[Not David]

You make it sound like the American alliance with Israel is based on the absurd notion of Rapture. It is not and never has been. Certainly the status of Israel as the only democracy in the Middle East is one major reason Americans sympathize with Israel. Second, Israel is largely a nation of immigrants, something that is also true of the US. Third, the State of Israel is seen as a haven for Jews, certainly important given the enormous persecutions they have been through in the past.



President Harry Truman chose to recognize Israel even as they fought for their independence. I'm not sure Harry Truman had ever heard of "Rapture."

Well, most of the most passionate allies of Israel are Evangelicals who believe in that kind of stuff, so there is still influence from them

 

[Not David]

You are missing the point. Jesus said that when you see these things begin to happen - then look up your redemption draws near.

That the Jews are getting closer to rebuilding their temple, which the abomination of desolation will be placed - that is a sign for us to look up, our redemption draws near.

Our redemption is the rapture.

One problem, that Jewish temple would not be "the temple of God".

 

[Not David]

The scary thing about this is how many Christians beleive it’s part of Bible prophecy. Some Jewish people may build a temple but it will be nothing more in the eyes of God than a Mormon Temple, a Masonic lodge, an ornate Catholic Church building. The only danger in it that would arouse the ire of the almighty is if millions of Christians get further into the end times delusions than they already are. And no, there will be no political figure called the anti-Chris that takes over the world. Period. Temple or no temple. People are making themselves out to be false prophets with all this garbage and Beleivers everywhere have been robbed of a scriptural vision for the future because of it.

It’s about time people started to learn once more about the 100s of chapters of Bible prophecy regarding this age of promise we now live in. So they can labor with God in his long term plans for the earth instead of against those plans. Prophecy like this:
How The Nations Are Blessed

I was liking your comment until you mentioned "ornate Catholic building".

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

that would be the AoD?

Such already happened several times over in 70 AD, with both Jewish zealots and Roman legions profaning the temple grounds

I have heard some say Luke 21 is showing the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad while Matt 24 and Mar 13 are for a future Jerusalem/Temple.
I say....HOGWASH!
To say those are 2 different events is blasphemy against the holy Writ of God/Jesus.

I have a thread on the harmonization of the Temple/Jerusalem discourse.
From what I have seen, Luke and Matthew actually "appears" to harmonize better with Revelation than does Mark.
Comments?

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Dave Watchman said: ↑
That means Matthew 24 is not the same thing as Luke 21. Luke 21 was inside the Temple in the morning. Jesus was sitting down inside a place called the "women's" court. He had to "look up' to see the poor old widow put money in the treasury which was located around the outside perimeter of that court.

Luke doesn't mention the AoD but appears to describe it in Luke 21.
These 3 Gospels are the same event and same time period. It is indisputable!

Matthew 24:16
then those in Judea — let them be fleeing! into the mountains;
Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination of the desolation, the one being declared by Daniel the prophet, standing where it is not binding, (whoever is reading let him be understanding!)
Then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains
Luke 21:
20 Whenever yet ye may be seeing Jerusalem being encompassed by armies, then be ye knowing! that nigh Her desolation.
21 then those in Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains;
and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;

Daniel 11
31 and arms from him, they shall stand up.
And they profane the Sanctuary, the-Refuge.
And take-away the-Continually,
and they give The-Abomination, one-making-desolate<8074>.

35 “And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them,
and make them white, until the time of the end;
because it is still for the appointed time.

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Revelation 13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the Saints

This appears to be a the fulfilling of Daniel 11:35?

Revelation 7:14
And I said to him, “Sir,[fn] you know.” So he said to me,
“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Daniel 11:35
“And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them,
and make them white, until the time of the end;
because it is still for the appointed time



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[jgr]

• "Paul was referring to an impostor who would situate himself, and arrogate spiritual authority, within the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively the Church."
  • Since Christ has already been proclaimed as Lord of the Spiritual temple this hypothesis is problematic. it would appear that it would be quite impossible for Satan's progeny to supplant himself on upon the Mercy Seat that Christ already occupies. Even if the context is a living stone they must in fact be a true believer and so Christ is still truly on the throne. If the man of perdition is on the throne then they are not the Lord's in the first place. Jesus also said that 'the gates of hell would not prevail' over His Church and so I believe it never has, nor will it ever, since the blood of the martyrs is

• Already previously agreed upon

• The early Church recognized the existing imperial Roman empire as “he who letteth (withholdeth)”, i.e. the restraining influence forestalling the emergence of the man of sin.
  • While I can understand how one might draw that as a possible conclusion, I really don't see any empirical evidence of this. Therefore, I'd tend to say this conclusion is speculative. My reason for arguing against it is manifold but perhaps context #4 of the Scripture quote is the most revealing, since it alludes to the Lord's coming and not to institution of Roman Popes. The sword of His mouth also follows Revelation 19:21 , which speaks in contextually to the return of Christ. So this is obviously end times that Paul speaks of and not post Constantine time, nor reformation time. With respect to the end time we so not know the day nor the hour thereof. Surely in every generation we have had to deal with tyrants and men who are shadow of that man of perdition, however, it readily appears Paul is talking about, 'the son of perdition' and not his shadowy minions and false prophets that have preceded him. Revelation 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse.

• Paul's inspired prescience saw fulfillment in the Roman papacy, which emerged from the dissolution of the imperial Roman empire, which claimed ultimate and complete spiritual authority within the Church, and which ultimately apostasized into the man of sin claiming to be "God on the earth".
  • I understand this is one of those interpretive theories from Revelation that have held long standing sway with some over the last 4 centuries or so but, on the heels of my answer to hypothesis #3 above, I believe IMHO that is an incorrect alignment.
  • Certainly we see no evidence of it in the first 1500 years of Christ's Church, and the notion that Christ had no disciples back then, save the Apostles themselves, does a grave injustice to the work of the Holy Spirit; who quickens us in every generation to Christ.
  • We do see evidence of apostacies in the early Gnostic, as well as syncretism of other forms of Pagan religions, and lastly the apostic influences of secular governments attempting to create an unholy marriage between secular power and the Church; in order to merge and control their power base.
  • But we also have a great deal of empirical evidences, comprised by many Christians, who wrote numerous and lengthy apologetics against these incursions; as well as a host of witnesses and martyrs that spoke out against such apostasies and were silenced.
  • So the Lord always leaves a remnant of his people on the front lines, just as he did in Elijah's time 1 Kings 19:18 . No matter how dark the days may become He is still the Lord of every age.

I appreciate and concur with much in your responses. Here is some historical commentary and context from two apologists of the early Church:

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its eventual apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom (347-407 AD), an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

Chrysostom was affirming what Tertullian (160-220AD) had said over a century earlier:

ON THE RESURRECTION, CHAP. XXIV

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."

Re. your comment:
"Certainly we see no evidence of it in the first 1500 years of Christ's Church, and the notion that Christ had no disciples back then, save the Apostles themselves, does a grave injustice to the work of the Holy Spirit; who quickens us in every generation to Christ."

There has always been, and will always be, the true Church. But the evidences of apostasy in the institutionalized church began in the 6th century, and reached their zenith in the 16th century. God raised up the Reformers to reclaim His True Church from the spiritual bondage which had enslaved it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sorry, but the new temple in Jerusalem will have no bearing on the timing of the rapture. God is waiting for the final martyr of the church age.

I guess that would be me. I am 68 yrs old, so it shouldn't be too long of a wait

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[Douggg]

One problem, that Jewish temple would not be "the temple of God".

David, that's not the thing to argue over. For likewise, the Jews will embrace someone who God did not send to be their King of Israel - i.e. the messiah - but he will not be the messiah.

What we have to look at it for, is the Jews are getting ready to build their temple - what it means for us, is a sign that our redemption draws near. Not the theological rightness or wrongness of what they are doing.

 

[DavidPT]

This thread isn't about the rapture, and the building of a third temple is a reality that is occuring.

Other than that the third temple is a prophecy in your Bible.
End-Time Prophecy: Why is the Third Temple so Important? | Messianic Bible

Even if they do manage to build this temple, that alone doesn't prove this temple will be used to fulfill any prophesies. That remains to be seen.