Are we just trying to understand the inconceivable?

[redleghunter]

I can understand how many are distressed by not knowing for sure whether or not they are chosen.

You were already refuted on this matter. Calvinism nor Reformed teaches this. I pointed out even the Doctrines of Grace teach from Holy Scriptures the perseverance and preservation of the saints.
Which is affirmed in the words of the apostle Paul where he says in Romans 8:

14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

I feel secure in my salvation because I cling to Jesus and know that He loves me enough to allow me to cling.

Amen! See Romans 8:16 above. This is quite a comfort as God does not keep us guessing.

You can't say this.

I don't know where this 'throw away' accusation comes from unless you are claiming God's omniscient attributes for your own.

What I can say is I believe God keeps His Promises and His Hope is a steady anchor:

For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, saying, “I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU.” And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 6:13-20)

And:

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:14-16)​

 

[redleghunter]

I think there is too much doctrinal emphasis placed on this by Reformed Theology.

Consider what Luther and Calvin and others were up against in historical context.

Paul did say this, but I believe he was emphasizing that salvation was by God's firm, eternal plan, not a matter of momentary whimsy.

That much is clear from Paul and even Peter when speaking to Jews.

Paul was not speaking into a theological vacuum. His Graeco-Roman audience were already very religious. But the gods they knew were fickle gods, favoring you one moment and cursing you the next.

This is a very good data point to explore. Yet it seems he had to 'reteach' Jews on the sovereignty of God as well.

Paul had to teach them that the God of Abraham was a God of long-term plans and certain goals, totally reliable in His favor, and that their salvation had been His intention all along.

Yes and he had to refocus the Jews on the covenant of faith with Abraham as opposed to Sinai and the Law.

 

[redleghunter]

“Maybe God hasn’t chosen you or called you to salvation”

Citation needs a source

“If God hasn’t drawn you you may not have been chosen as one of His elect”

Citation needs a source

“If you are doubting that you are saved, you probably haven’t been called”

Citation needs a source

“If God hasn’t chosen you, you will never come to Christ”

Citation needs a source

 

[redleghunter]

There is the problem, man read the Bible away from the Church and decides silly things for themselves

There is also a problem where man makes Holy Scriptures subservient to their earthly power and decides very silly things for themselves. Like peddling indulgences to pay for a cathedral.

Pope Leo X (A.D. 1475-1521) commissioned John Tetzel, a Dominican monk, to travel throughout Germany selling indulgences on behalf of the Church. Tetzel declared that as soon as the coins “clinked” in his money chest, the souls of those for whom the indulgences had been purchased would fly out of purgatory.

These indulgences not only bestowed pardon for sins committed already, they were used to license the commission of future transgressions as well. In the classic volume, The Life and Times of Martin Luther, noted historian Merle D’Aubigne relates an amusing episode relative to this practice.

A certain Saxon nobleman heard John Tetzel proclaiming his doctrine of indulgences, and the gentleman was much aggravated at this perversion of truth. Accordingly, he approached the monk one day and inquired as to whether he might purchase an indulgence for a sin he intended to commit.

“Most assuredly,” replied Tetzel, “I have received full powers from his holiness for that purpose.” After some haggling, a fee of thirty crowns was agreed upon, and the nobleman departed.

Together with some friends, he hid himself in a nearby forest. Presently, as Tetzel journeyed that way, the knight and his mischievous companions fell upon the papal salesman, gave him a light beating, and relieved him of his money, apparently taking no pains to disguise themselves.

Tetzel was enraged by the foul deed and filed suit in the courts. When the nobleman appeared as the defendant, he produced the letter of exemption containing John Tetzel’s personal signature, which absolved the Saxon of any liability. When Duke George (the judge before whom the action was brought) examined the document, exasperated though he was, he ordered the accused to be released.

Error is its own worst enemy!
John Tetzel's Indulgences​

 

[GodsGrace101]

First Post​

Second Post​

I provided both my posts above given you truly did not address my comments and chose to repost your assertions.


And once again neither Calvinism nor any Reformed theology believes what you assert. You said you read what I wrote. Those passages, not just plucked verses, but clear teachings of Jesus and His apostles say we do choose, but that choice is colored by who we are in bondage to. Either sin and death or righteousness. We have our wills but they are not truly 'free' in the libertarian sense of "I'm free to go to the market and buy a gallon of milk." We do choose and I pointed that out several times and is what Reformed and every other Christian theology teaches. Yet Biblically Paul says there is a bondage to the human will.

And once again I pointed out God chooses too! He is the one who takes out the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh.

So I do agree those in the Lake of Fire truly chose a path which led to their condemnation. Again I pointed this out from Romans 1 .


Of course. Yet He chose who He revealed certain mysteries and blessings. Abraham comes to mind. God chose Abraham, Abraham believed and God reckoned (imputed) righteousness to him.


Of course. One can decide with either a heart of stone or a heart of flesh. Again who replaces the heart of stone with the heart of flesh? God does, that is His sovereign act. This is the New Covenant Promise I quoted from Ezekiel 36:26-27 . As Ephesians 2 points out we are dead in our trespasses until God makes us alive, or quickens us:

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

Hi RLH,
You write a lot and it's difficult to handle with the time I have. For instance, if I concentrate on exegeting Ephesians 2, that's all I'd be able to do.

You mention "plucked verses"....any verse stated is a plucked verse. The bible is supposed to be read as a whole. You know very well that anything can be found in the N.T. Sometimes we have to use other sources or concepts to come to a realistic conclusion.
In Romans 9, 10 and 11 Paul is speaking about the Jewish nation...not individual salvation. If he only knew we'd get all mixed up into this back then!

Libertarian free will is the free will to make a moral choice...not to go to the store and buy milk. If we don't even have our terms right, how do we discuss?
This is a general problem with Christianity.

I agree that we are in bondage to satan, sin and death or to God and righteousness. This is also a choice. You say we are free in a sense but true Calvinists understand that we have no freedom because God makes us want what HE wants, so that is not true freedom of choice. I'm sure you know this.

In Ezekiel God said He would take out our heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh. This was accomplished in the New Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant was only law, the New Covenant is grace and our heart is changed by loving Jesus. God does anything He does ONLY if we so desire it.
Revelation 3:20 Jesus says whosoever opens the door will dine with Him. WE open the door...GOD knocks.

Above you also said this:
So I do agree those in the Lake of Fire truly chose a path which led to their condemnation. Again I pointed this out from Romans 1 .

How do you believe those in the Lake of Fire CHOSE this path if you also believe it's God that chooses those that will be saved? By necessity, doesn't this mean that God also chooses who will end up in hell?
Your statement is a contradiction to Calvinism.

As to Ephesians 2:1-10
This scripture just reinforces what I say about God.
He's a God of Love and Mercy. Why? Precisely for the reason you state: While we were sinners, God loves us. He could have abandoned us as happened a few times in the O.T., instead, He saved us instead of allowing us to be lost. God took the sinners and made them alive in Christ...from the beginning of time God had definitely purposed this form of salvation. It IS totally HIS work...God Father planned it and God Son finished the work of the plan.
WE could not save ourselves...only in Jesus could we be saved.

Verse 7 states that he showers us with His loving kindness IN JESUS. This is the plan...Jesus is God's planned salvation for whoever would accept Him.
John 3:16

Correctly you post that by GRACE we are saved...as in the above plan...WORKS cannot save us. We cannot save ourselves with our works...only by having faith in Jesus. This does not mean that God chooses us...it means that we respond to His call.

Verse 10 God has preordained that we should walk in the works created for us in Christ Jesus NOT that He picked us for this salvation.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You don't have to quote plucked out verses. Provide the complete narrative of a passage within context as I have and we can discuss. Show me how someone who has not been given a heart of flesh can even choose God. Show me how someone dead in their trespasses can choose God without being made alive in Christ. Show me someone who is not called of God actually decides to choose Him on their own merits or a perceived inner goodness. Show me how a natural child of wrath, which Paul says is all of us (Ephesians 2:3) chooses God without His intervention.

Then after this maybe you can tell me why some respond to the Gospel of Grace in faith and repentance unto salvation and others do not.

Then perhaps you can answer the original question I had based on the inquiries above. Why would God allow some to respond to the Gospel and others not to respond? Why are some inclined to your "free will" to accept the Gospel and why are some inclined not to?


I quoted several passages which show that God taking out our heart of stone and giving us a heart of flesh is His Love. I quoted Romans 8 which addresses the Love of God and just above Ephesians 2 which states taking us from a spiritually dead state to being alive in Christ is God's Mercy and Love. So you probably missed that but my previous quotes in my previous posts.


I just pointed out in several the passages where God's Love and Mercy are demonstrated as while we were yet sinners Christ died for us; and God being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) (Ephesians 2:4-5).

And I also shared Romans 9 where the apostle observes and writes:

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Which is not Calvinism, nor Reformed nor any 'ism' but apostolic teaching. In which once again you charge the Almighty here again:



Which the apostle answers you here in the same chapter Romans 9:

20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

If you believe this to be 'harsh' teaching by the apostle Paul, then I can also pose a similar question:

Why does a loving and merciful God allow any to perish? Why does He allow our human will to reject His Beloved Son in Whom He is well pleased?

While you are pondering the above perhaps you can answer why even Jesus chose who would understand His teachings and who would not:

Luke 8: NASB

9His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant. 10And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

Jesus was quoting from the OT:

Deuteronomy 29:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Jeremiah 5:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

Isaiah 42:19-20 King James Version (KJV)
19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant?

20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

And the apostle Paul picks up on the teachings of Christ:

Romans 11:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

2 Corinthians 3:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.​

This will have to wait till tomorrow.
I'll only say this: All of Christianity believes that man is a fallen creature. The difference is that the rest of Christianity believes man has the ability to decide if he wishes to be saved whereas Calvin taught he is so depraved he cannot do anything for himself. Interesting because even atheists can do good and can be good persons. I think of
Joshua 24:15
Joshua's household CHOSE to serve God.
Choosing implies free will.
WHEN was this free will taken away?
Tomorrow...

 

[redleghunter]

In Romans 9, 10 and 11 Paul is speaking about the Jewish nation...not individual salvation. If he only knew we'd get all mixed up into this back then!

Groups are made of individuals and I pointed out in what I quoted that Paul makes the distinction. Or do you think by "Israel" being blinded that Paul, Peter, John and James were blinded too and had become vessels of wrath? Or do you think where Paul says "all Israel will be saved" means every individual?


Jesus chose His disciples. The Father gives the sheep to the Son and they hear His voice and follow Him (John 10). God called Abraham and not Lot. God sure does choose. Paul's conversion is a very good example.

Many are called but few are chosen---Jesus Christ

I agree that we are in bondage to satan, sin and death or to God and righteousness. This is also a choice.

Based on being in bondage to either sin and death or righteousness. You completely missed that.

You say we are free in a sense but true Calvinists understand that we have no freedom because God makes us want what HE wants, so that is not true freedom of choice. I'm sure you know this.

You have not been reading my posts or fail to want to acknowledge once again I refuted this specious assertion.

In Ezekiel God said He would take out our heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh. This was accomplished in the New Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant was only law, the New Covenant is grace and our heart is changed by loving Jesus. God does anything He does ONLY if we so desire it.

Again notice God takes out the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. Unless you believe everyone has this happen (Universalism) it is an act of God and not our own.

Revelation 3:20 Jesus says whosoever opens the door will dine with Him. WE open the door...GOD knocks.

Indeed Who again is initiating the call here and knocking? Reinforces my point. Oh and dead men cannot hear someone knocking at the door.

How do you believe those in the Lake of Fire CHOSE this path if you also believe it's God that chooses those that will be saved? By necessity, doesn't this mean that God also chooses who will end up in hell?
Your statement is a contradiction to Calvinism.

If you read my posts you would have come to the conclusion that people either hear the Gospel with a new heart from God or a heart of stone. And it's not Calvinism you rail against but the clear doctrine of election which Paul and Peter clearly teach.

As to Ephesians 2:1-10
This scripture just reinforces what I say about God.
He's a God of Love and Mercy. Why? Precisely for the reason you state: While we were sinners, God loves us. He could have abandoned us as happened a few times in the O.T., instead, He saved us instead of allowing us to be lost. God took the sinners and made them alive in Christ...from the beginning of time God had definitely purposed this form of salvation. It IS totally HIS work...God Father planned it and God Son finished the work of the plan.
WE could not save ourselves...only in Jesus could we be saved.

Actually what you wrote (I bolded above) reinforces my points. You also ignored the highlighted and underlined parts which show we are dead and God makes us alive. Dead people cannot respond and choose God.

Verse 7 states that he showers us with His loving kindness IN JESUS. This is the plan...Jesus is God's planned salvation for whoever would accept Him.
John 3:16

Yes and we are made alive in Christ changing from being a son of wrath to a child of God. The son of wrath is dead, the child of God is alive. Again dead people can't respond to a calling from God.

Correctly you post that by GRACE we are saved...as in the above plan...WORKS cannot save us. We cannot save ourselves with our works...only by having faith in Jesus. This does not mean that God chooses us...it means that we respond to His call.

Let me ask the question. Why can't God be sovereign in choosing us?

Also, you obviously answered the knock at the door from Christ. What makes you different from the people who don't?

Verse 10 God has preordained that we should walk in the works created for us in Christ Jesus NOT that He picked us for this salvation.

Don't know why you responded to that verse with the above comment. I provided the entire context to demonstrate the ordo salutis.

 

[food4thought]

Why did I read this whole thread!?! I knew from the start it would devolve into a Calvinism vs Arminianism argument. Sigh...

To the OP:

We seek to understand God to the extent possible because we love Him.

/thread

 

[redleghunter]

I'll only say this: All of Christianity believes that man is a fallen creature.

A fallen creature dead in their sin.

The difference is that the rest of Christianity believes man has the ability to decide if he wishes to be saved whereas Calvin taught he is so depraved he cannot do anything for himself.

I wonder where he got that idea:

Romans 3: NASB

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

Interesting because even atheists can do good and can be good persons. I think of
Joshua 24:15
Joshua's household CHOSE to serve God.
Choosing implies free will.
WHEN was this free will taken away?
Tomorrow...

What do atheists doing 'good' have to do with the discussion? Other than refute your position?

Joshua and those who entered the Promised Land chose God's offer for peace, security and a farm. In order to keep such they were to follow the Law. Again not helping your position. I guess some do still choose to follow the Law seeking righteousness through it but the apostle Paul said in Romans 3:

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

It might be better if you can find something about libertarian free will and choosing Christ in the New Covenant without some act of God. A multitude of times in the NT it is God who calls and in all cases this is an effectual call:

Hebrews 9:15

For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.



Jude 1:1

Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:


John 5:25

"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


John 10:3

"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Romans 1:6

among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Romans 8:30

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 11:29

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


1 Corinthians 7:18-22

Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.

Galatians 1:6

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Ephesians 4:1

Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,

Philippians 3:14

I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

2 Thessalonians 1:11

To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,

2 Thessalonians 2:14

It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 6:12

Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Hebrews 3:1

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

1 Peter 5:10

After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

2 Peter 1:3

seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

2 Peter 1:10

Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

Revelation 17:14

"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

 

[dms1972]

Some things are mysteries that we may not fully understand or know.

The Arminianism vs Calvinism thing.

God can at the same time give us free will, along with knowing in the end what we are going to do with it and where we will end up. I don't think God can be surprised or takes in knowledge passively. Since he is eternal, he also exists outside of time.

Could we be predestined? Maybe, who knows. What's the benefit of trying to understand God's decree anyways?

Although its interesting to see both theological views, does it produce any fruit is it worth going into?

I asked a similar thing in another thread. I know now nothing I say is likely to result in it being discussed less In fact the very posting of my thread only opens up the debate again. If its a topic you have seen discussed and have read before and don't want to go over it again, don't click on the thread, or hover over the title till you see the substance of the first post in the thread.

I guess people do like to debate it, but I don't know if those reading those thread find them helpful or confusing? Predestination and Election are subjects in Scripture so they do need to be taught and taught well, which means going no further than Scripture goes. So we should not throw obloquy on the doctrine of predestination, as though it should never be discussed.

"Predestination is beyond all question an important biblical doctrine. But we must never forget that to us the way of God are profoundly and inscrutably mysterious. The mind of God cannot be measured by the mind of man. " Philip Edgecumb Hughes

But I would sooner go to a book to learn about it than some of the threads about it on these forums.

They are also probably two of the most difficult topics, so how many of us are really qualified to explain them adequately? From a teaching perspective that would require a comprehensive knowledge of the leading teachers through church history and how each of them understood the subject. Neither is it all that useful to take them up out of context of their place in the Bible. But on the other hand this a internet forum there will probably be always new people coming to it and so its going to keep coming up from time to time. Also in regard to Calvinism vs Arminianism, these are certainly not the only two theologies with something to say on these issues, and even in the Calvinist camp there is more than one position.

 

[RDKirk]

I asked a similar thing in another thread. I guess people do like to debate it from time to time, but I don't know if those reading it find it helpful or confusing. Predestination and election are subjects in Scripture so they do need to be taught and taught well. They are also probably two of the most difficult topics, so how many of us are really qualified to explain them adequately? From a teaching perspective that would require a comprehensive knowledge of the leading teachers through church history and how each of them understood the subject. Neither is it all that useful to take them up out of context of their place in the Bible. Also in regard to Calvinism vs Arminianism, these are certainly not the only two theologies with something to say on these issues, and even in the Calvinist camp there are two positions.

It doesn't take all that to be saved.

 

[dms1972]

I never said anyone needed to understand it to be saved. And I agree with you every Christian doesn't need to know the whole range of opinions on it, just what their church teaches, as the topic is in the Bible, and its for those who are wanting to learn as Christians. If the Apostles mentioned it then coverage of it should form part of Christian teaching/initation at an appropriate time, not the whole spectrum of views from every perspective but what is in keeping with one's faith tradition, denomination (Lutheran, Catholic, Calvinist, Wesleyan etc.) I was saying though to discuss on these forums comprehensively would require wide knowledge of the subject.

If you have something to say, or feel led to say something about the way of salvation, just start a thread on that.

I realise now that as long as these forums are going there will always be the same topics coming up, there must be half a dozen or more topics that come up repeatedly. I don't have to read, or post in them unless I want too, the same goes for everyone else. There will also amongst them be occasionally be some gems of discussion on other subjects.

 

[GodsGrace101]

It doesn't take all that to be saved.

Doctrine doesn't save us. Jesus does.

 

[StillGods]

I don't think we need to understand it all. both calvinism and arminianism are wrong anyway so it's pointless trying to figure out who is right and who is wrong.
calvinism is quite fascinating as it is a subtle kind of brainwashing.
was at a reformed church on Sunday and it was the most depressing sermon..almost laughable if it wasnt so sad.
sigh.. thankfully it's only a tiny section of christendom who subscribe to it (though they do think they are the only ones with the Truth hehe) of course they are the elect well if they keep doing works of righteousness and enduring they are the elect but who really knows for sure (if you're non calvinist you know for sure so why would you be calvinist?) ..they end up becoming arrogant and not realizing it.
its fascinating to watch.

 

[Tutorman]

There is also a problem where man makes Holy Scriptures subservient to their earthly power and decides very silly things for themselves. Like peddling indulgences to pay for a cathedral.

So your answer is to become your own authority of what is right and what is wrong. Throw the baby out with the bath water and have a free for all, YEA!

 

[redleghunter]

So your answer is to become your own authority of what is right and what is wrong. Throw the baby out with the bath water and have a free for all, YEA!

Oh heavens no. I'm Reformed I would never throw the baby out with the bathwater. I don't subscribe to "Solo Meo."

Of course, like many core Christian convictions, the doctrine of sola Scriptura has often been misunderstood and misapplied. Unfortunately, some have used sola Scriptura as a justification for a “me, God, and the Bible” type of individualism, where the church bears no real authority and the history of the church is not considered when interpreting and applying Scripture. Thus, many churches today are almost ahistorical—cut off entirely from the rich traditions, creeds, and confessions of the church. They misunderstand sola Scriptura to mean that the Bible is the only authority rather than understanding it to mean that the Bible is the only infallible authority. Ironically, such an individualistic approach actually undercuts the very doctrine of sola Scriptura it is intended to protect. By emphasizing the autonomy of the individual believer, one is left with only private, subjective conclusions about what Scripture means. It is not so much the authority of Scripture that is prized as the authority of the individual.

The Reformers would not have recognized such a distortion as their doctrine of sola Scriptura. On the contrary, they were quite keen to rely on the church fathers, church councils, and the creeds and confessions of the church. Such historical rootedness was viewed not only as a means for maintaining orthodoxy but also as a means for maintaining humility. Contrary to popular perceptions, the Reformers did not view themselves as coming up with something new. Rather, they understood themselves to be recovering something very old—something that the church had originally believed but later twisted and distorted. The Reformers were not innovators but were excavators.

There are other extremes against which the doctrine of sola Scriptura protects us. While we certainly want to avoid the individualistic and ahistorical posture of many churches today, sola Scriptura also protects us from overcorrecting and raising creeds and confessions or other human documents (or ideas) to the level of Scripture. We must always be on guard against making the same mistake as Rome and embracing what we might call “traditionalism,” which attempts to bind the consciences of Christians in areas that the Bible does not. In this sense, sola Scriptura is a guardian of Christian liberty. But the biggest danger we face when it comes to sola Scriptura is not misunderstanding it. The biggest danger is forgetting it. We are prone to think of this doctrine purely in terms of sixteenth-century debates—just a vestige of the age-old Catholic-Protestant battles and irrelevant for the modern day. But the Protestant church in the modern day needs this doctrine now more than ever. The lessons of the Reformation have been largely forgotten, and the church, once again, has begun to rely on ultimate authorities outside of Scripture.
Understanding Sola Scriptura​

 

[redleghunter]

So your answer is to become your own authority of what is right and what is wrong. Throw the baby out with the bath water and have a free for all, YEA!

But you have to admit the Tetzel story was funny.

 

[Mountainmike]

Some things are mysteries that we may not fully understand or know.

The Arminianism vs Calvinism thing.

I would say you dont need it to limit it to views on predestination even (or indeed the parallel Thomist vs Molinist catholic views) -
The scope of unknowable mystery is far more wideranging, like truly trying to "understand" the trinity beyond a few basic dogmas.

The ways of God are so far beyond any of our comprehension that it is all truly a mystery - and it is a mistake to try to analyse it too deeply with human rationality. In the end we must all trust..


I think that is part of what Jesus was saying in Matthew 11:25

“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."

That human intellect is a very weak tool, and that child like acceptance is what is demanded.

For me of course (and I dont expect all to agree on this) but most of the reformatist arguments against Jesus really meaning what he said with the eucharist "This IS my body" "This is MY blood" echoed by Paul, and early church fathers saying heretics "confess not the eucharist to be the flesh of our Lord".... Those arguments against stem from attempts at rationalising it , rather than accepting it ,that yield "symbolic" interpretations or indeed "consubstantiation". The fact it still looks like bread (but not always!).. When Jesus says "unless you eat (he uses the word gnaw) my flesh, you have no life in you"

We must trust more and analyse less.
If thats what he says it is. Thats what it is. Whatever it looks like to us...
.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Groups are made of individuals and I pointed out in what I quoted that Paul makes the distinction. Or do you think by "Israel" being blinded that Paul, Peter, John and James were blinded too and had become vessels of wrath? Or do you think where Paul says "all Israel will be saved" means every individual?

I know the difference between Corporate Salvation and Individual Salvation. You, or anyone reading along, could find out about it. God picked the Jewish nation for His revelations. The vessel and the potter and Jacob and Esau refer back to the O.T. hand have nothing to do with being chosen.

Jesus chose His disciples. The Father gives the sheep to the Son and they hear His voice and follow Him (John 10). God called Abraham and not Lot. God sure does choose. Paul's conversion is a very good example.

Many are called but few are chosen---Jesus Christ

Jesus chose His disciples. You're right on this one.
He chose Judas too. God could have called Lot, then you'd be saying the opposite...your reasoning makes no sense.

God can choose those He knows will make good leaders for what HE wants them to do...God does, after all know each one of us and knows the future.
Many are called....
Few are chosen...

Yes,,,but the being chosen depends on the person.
Do they follow God's rules for being chosen? God has conditions --- have they followed the conditions?
To YOU the "world" does not mean the world,,,but, fortunately for the rest of us...the world means everyone in the world. WHOSOEVER chooses to be saved will be saved.

Based on being in bondage to either sin and death or righteousness. You completely missed that.

I miss nothing. Seems like you've missed a few things though --- Study up on Romans 9, 10 and 11 and corporate salvation. I guess your church doesn't teach this...It would ruin everything for it.

You have not been reading my posts or fail to want to acknowledge once again I refuted this specious assertion.


Again notice God takes out the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. Unless you believe everyone has this happen (Universalism) it is an act of God and not our own.

God is a loving God. He only does what you actually WANT Him to do. He'll replace that heart of stone IF
you want Him to.
Read John 3:16 till you understand it.
FOR WHOSOEVER BELIEVES
NOT
For whosoever God forces to believe

Indeed Who again is initiating the call here and knocking? Reinforces my point. Oh and dead men cannot hear someone knocking at the door.

Do you read my posts? I said God always makes the first move...God reveals Himself to man...THEN man must decide if he wishes to follow God or not.
And the remark about dead men not hearing is rather silly. Everyone in a church hears the sermon. Some do not wish to answer the call.

If you read my posts you would have come to the conclusion that people either hear the Gospel with a new heart from God or a heart of stone. And it's not Calvinism you rail against but the clear doctrine of election which Paul and Peter clearly teach.

Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Jude, NONE of the N.T. writers believed in unconditional election. Did you ever read the Early Church theologians, besides the gnostic ones who agree with you? None of them believed in predestination...and they all believed in free will.

Did you know that you're in the camp of gnosticism?
It's considered a heresy to this day.

Actually what you wrote (I bolded above) reinforces my points. You also ignored the highlighted and underlined parts which show we are dead and God makes us alive. Dead people cannot respond and choose God.

Mathew 16:27 JESUS said:
27“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS."

Please explain the above. Why is Jesus going to repay each man for his deeds if it's God causing men to do the good deeds or the evil deeds?

If man is not responsible for his deeds because it is GOD who causes man to do good and to do evil,,,what kind of a just God would judge man on his deeds?

While you're at it, also explain:
John 5:28-29

Yes and we are made alive in Christ changing from being a son of wrath to a child of God. The son of wrath is dead, the child of God is alive. Again dead people can't respond to a calling from God.

The first part is 100% correct.
The second part is incorrect. We are all dead before we hear the gospel. God didn't make depraved human beings...He made wonderful human beings that have the opportunity to serve Him and spend eternity with Him if they so wish.

David said he was fearfully and wonderfully made.
Pslam 139:14

You have to ignore A LOT of scripture to believe man is totally depraved.

Not to mention that Jesus is made in our image so that we could be forgiven our sins.
2 Corinthians 5:21
Hebrews 2:17 Jesus was made like us in EVERY WAY.

Let me ask the question. Why can't God be sovereign in choosing us?

Is God NOT sovereign because He fears our free will?
God could choose us, but then He would not be the God of the bible.

God is LOVE
1 John 4:8
Psalm 86:5

God is MERCY
Luke 6:36
Psalm 86:15

God is JUST
Isaiah 30:18
Job 34:12

Surely God will not act wickedly, as is stated in Job...and a wicked God it would be who sends persons to hell based on nothing but His whim.

Also, you obviously answered the knock at the door from Christ. What makes you different from the people who don't?

What makes YOU different from those God did NOT choose? I'd say you're in a very proudful situation.
Pride is a sin...and God choosing YOU would tend to make you feel rather proud.

[/QUOTE]

 

[GodsGrace101]

A fallen creature dead in their sin.

I wonder where he got that idea:

Romans 3: NASB

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”


What do atheists doing 'good' have to do with the discussion? Other than refute your position?

Joshua and those who entered the Promised Land chose God's offer for peace, security and a farm. In order to keep such they were to follow the Law. Again not helping your position. I guess some do still choose to follow the Law seeking righteousness through it but the apostle Paul said in Romans 3:

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

It might be better if you can find something about libertarian free will and choosing Christ in the New Covenant without some act of God. A multitude of times in the NT it is God who calls and in all cases this is an effectual call:

Hebrews 9:15

For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.



Jude 1:1

Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:


John 5:25

"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


John 10:3

"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Romans 1:6

among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Romans 8:30

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 11:29

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


1 Corinthians 7:18-22

Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.

Galatians 1:6

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Ephesians 4:1

Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,

Philippians 3:14

I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

2 Thessalonians 1:11

To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,

2 Thessalonians 2:14

It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 6:12

Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Hebrews 3:1

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

1 Peter 5:10

After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

2 Peter 1:3

seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

2 Peter 1:10

Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

Revelation 17:14

"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

The called to serve God are those that meet His conditions.

How about posting ONE verse at a time so I could answer it.

Carpet bombing doesn't work well with me.