Are we just trying to understand the inconceivable?

[Oldmantook]

Considering we are only to discuss Universalism in the Controversial Christian Theology forum we should go there.

But if you must know there have been several threads there already where Universalist views vary and there is not one systematic theology to point to.

Been there done that. You can look up all of my posts there under universalism. FYI the doctrine in the early church was called apocastastasis or alternately spelled apokatastasis - the belief that God will indeed accomplish his will and reconcile all men to himself.

 

[redleghunter]

Have you yourself studied both theologies? If not, I won't do your due diligence for you. That's your own responsibility. If I'm wrong then correct me and go ahead and inform of how so.

You have to pardon me kind sir. You made assertions maybe general observations of what you think are tenets of Arminianism and Calvinism. I was just inquiring what led you to those assertions or observations. That’s why I asked if you had any sources you relied on from certain theological works.

For example when I ask a Roman Catholic about free will I sometimes direct their attention to the works of Augustine which I have extensively read as both a Roman Catholic and now as an Evangelical.

That’s what I was getting at. So if you have sources to support what you conclude please share.

On Universal Reconciliation? Again I’ve seen many views and what is clear is that given the proof texts cited the main belief is that at some point in God’s plan all people, spirits and creation will be reconciled with God. Do I have the general thesis? I do know views vary.

 

[RDKirk]

Well as Bible believers we are predestined....in some sense of the word. We can say this because the Bible does use the term. To what benefit is there to understand it correctly? Wouldn't it be for the reason to make sure the sinner has the most accurate vision of the character of God?

And why is that important? Does one truly want to be in relationship with someone of whom they consider their character is less than noble? If the picture Calvinists portray of the character of God is reprehensible to the listener than how can it not be counterproductive to the mandate Christ gave to the church....to go forth and persuade men to receive their reconciliation.



I suppose in some way it might be good for many to just carry on not give it too much thought. Other people are longing for answers as their minds have become confused.

The gospel itself is reprehensible to sinners who have not been enabled to accept it.

For those who have been enabled, explanations beyond the gospel are unnecessary for faith.

 

[Oldmantook]

You have to pardon me kind sir. You made assertions maybe general observations of what you think are tenets of Arminianism and Calvinism. I was just inquiring what led you to those assertions or observations. That’s why I asked if you had any sources you relied on from certain theological works.

For example when I ask a Roman Catholic about free will I sometimes direct their attention to the works of Augustine which I have extensively read as both a Roman Catholic and now as an Evangelical.

That’s what I was getting at. So if you have sources to support what you conclude please share.

On Universal Reconciliation? Again I’ve seen many views and what is clear is that given the proof texts cited the main belief is that at some point in God’s plan all people, spirits and creation will be reconciled with God. Do I have the general thesis? I do know views vary.

My sources were my professors at seminary or a plain old Millard Erickson's Christian Theology was the text used at the time. That textbook is still in print.

 

[redleghunter]

My sources were my professors at seminary or a plain old Millard Erickson's Christian Theology was the text used at the time. That textbook is still in print.

Great we should be able to get a few quotes from you to source your statements!

 

[Oldmantook]

Great we should be able to get a few quotes from you to source your statements!

Read the textbook like I had to do. That should not be too hard if you're genuinely interested. If you're not up to the task then why don't you explain it yourself? Do you agree or disagree that Calvinism is primarily based on God's sovereignty and less on man's free will? Do you agree or disagree that Arminianism is primarily based on man's free will and less on God's sovereignty? Why or why not. Shall I await your answer?

 

[Bobber]

What’s reprehensible about while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

And that:

1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of Godthrough Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Who said I disagreed with any of that????

Obviously I'm talking about what Calvinists teach about election and that God is not willing to save all through the preaching of the gospel.

 

[redleghunter]

Who said I disagreed with any of that????

Obviously I'm talking about what Calvinists teach about election and that God is not willing to save all through the preaching of the gospel.

That’s not Calvinism.

Was it your point that Reformed theology opposes Universal Reconciliation?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

If the picture Calvinists portray of the character of God is reprehensible to the listener than how can it not be counterproductive to the mandate Christ gave to the church....to go forth and persuade men to receive their reconciliation.

If the picture that Calvinists portray is correct, then persuading men with any other picture is to draw them to a false god. I was rather bothered that your statement showed no concern for actual truth, but only for convincing people. @ToBeLoved has stated in at least one other thread that she (?) hates the God of Calvinism. I believe this illustrates your point, but my point is that if the God of Calvinism is correct, then then this person has just declared open hostility toward God, which cannot be corrected by showing devotion to something which is not God. This goes toward the OP also, because I would say what good is it if we both show devotion to what we both call "God," but one of us hates the God that the other one knows?

The heart of the matter is that one will love God because he thinks that God conforms to an image that he could accept, and the other loves God because God deserves to be loved, either way. You love God because you think he fits your image. I love God because he is God, whatever he is like. Whatever God is, I love. Whatever you love, God is (you hope). Which is the more dangerous approach?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Yet with both Calvinism and Arminianism we still have problems.
Calvinism boils down to (God is strong enough to save everyone) + (God does not want to save everyone) = Everyone is not saved.
Arminianism boils down to (God is not strong enough to save everyone) + (God wants to save everyone) = Everyone is not saved.

I admire the sound rationality of your Universalism. It lacks all of the logical incongruities of Arminianism, except that the Bible gives us every reason to believe that not all are saved. If Arminianism is irrational, and Calvinism is frightful, then Universalism has the advantage of being tremendously comforting and having all of its logical ends tied up nicely. It just happens to be false. We already know that everyone is not saved. It's just a question of why.

 

[Oldmantook]

I admire the sound rationality of your Universalism. It lacks all of the logical incongruities of Arminianism, except that the Bible gives us every reason to believe that not all are saved. If Arminianism is irrational, and Calvinism is frightful, then Universalism has the advantage of being tremendously comforting and having all of its logical ends tied up nicely. It just happens to be false. We already know that everyone is not saved. It's just a question of why.

At least you sound somewhat open to the idea - at least philosophically. That is more than can be said for most Christians who are immediately close-mined to the subject as they have been taught otherwise and refuse to consider any other possibility other than what they've been taught. I have studied the subject off and on for a few years and based on the whole of Scripture think that Universalism is a better fit than either Calvinism or Aminianism. How can the Good News be the good news when the great majority of humankind will be lost according to the traditional view? My belief is that at least study the subject for yourself as we tend to interpret Scripture viewed through the lens of what we were taught. We believe that the lake of fire which is in fact a real place is "eternal" yet that is not the meaning of the aionion/aionios. One quote that initially piqued my interest was this citation from G. Campbell Morgan, sometimes referred to as the prince of expositors:
In passing, and in connection with the great theme which we are only touching upon, let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word “eternity." We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our "eternal," which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is - "unto the ages of the ages," which does not literally mean eternally. (God's Methods With Man; p 185-86)
Is hell eternal as we've been taught? There are many scriptural reasons to believe otherwise but that is not the subject of this thread so out of respect for the OP I won't comment any further.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Some things are mysteries that we may not fully understand or know.

The Arminianism vs Calvinism thing.

God can at the same time give us free will, along with knowing in the end what we are going to do with it and where we will end up. I don't think God can be surprised or takes in knowledge passively. Since he is eternal, he also exists outside of time.

Could we be predestined? Maybe, who knows. What's the benefit of trying to understand God's decree anyways?

Although its interesting to see both theological views, does it produce any fruit is it worth going into?

A quote I found "I sometimes think it would be more profitable to just read the Bible and thank the Lord Jesus for saving us than try to figure it all out."
"Such a faith is preferable. People who try to be overly intellectual about the Bible sacrifice the mystery of the union with God to the reaches of their intellect."

First of all, a person can't stop their brain from thinking.
If a person is simple, that's fine and God loves them.
If a person is intellectual, that's fine too and God loves them...but they're going to have to understand more.

As to the importance of free will or if God chose us...
Of course it matters!

IF God chose those who will be saved, it means He predestined the others to hell.

What kind of a God is that?

 

[GodsGrace101]

If it happens so often then at least one post should be found to substantiate the claim.

Here’s my counter. I know most of the Reformed posters here and none of them have ever posted such vitriol.

All of the above, and there are many more, attest to the fact that some Calvinists are preoccupied with the state of their salvation because they cannot be sure they are among the saved.

Why not?

Because Calvinism teaches that GOD chooses us. So how could a person possibly be sure that God has chosen them??
They cannot.

All other churches in Christendom teach that God reveals Himself to a person and THAT PERSON chooses to serve GOD,,,so that person can be certain they're saved because it is THEIR WISH to serve the Almighty God.

I wish I could find one video which showed John Piper telling a doubting person she most probably was not saved.

And here he is saying anyone who believes will be saved...
WHAT'S GOING ON??

 

[RDKirk]

First of all, a person can't stop their brain from thinking.
If a person is simple, that's fine and God loves them.
If a person is intellectual, that's fine too and God loves them...but they're going to have to understand more.

As to the importance of free will or if God chose us...
Of course it matters!

IF God chose those who will be saved, it means He predestined the others to hell.

What kind of a God is that?

Paul was an intellectual, well-versed in the philosophies of two different world-views, yet Paul said:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. 2 Corinthians 1

....

When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling.

My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power. 2 Corinthians 2

 

[redleghunter]

All of the above, and there are many more, attest to the fact that some Calvinists are preoccupied with the state of their salvation because they cannot be sure they are among the saved.

Actually they are teaching Biblical foundations of eternal life and perseverance and preservation of the saints. That is assurance.

Are there specific quotes you would like to share? I ask for the videos you summarize don't actually say what you quote above.

Because Calvinism teaches that GOD chooses us. So how could a person possibly be sure that God has chosen them??
They cannot.

I agree and everyone should be teaching this as Jesus and the apostles teach God chooses us. Many are called but few are chosen. How can one be sure? All of the men you posted videos of actually teach:

Romans 8: NASB

14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

One cannot be sure unless the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit we are children of God.

All other churches in Christendom teach that God reveals Himself to a person and THAT PERSON chooses to serve GOD,,,so that person can be certain they're saved because it is THEIR WISH to serve the Almighty God.

Let's test that with apostolic teaching:

Romans 8: NASB

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Jesus confirms this. "Many are called few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14)

We can't serve God until He justifies us.

The apostle Paul teaches that this faith is a gift of God:

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We cannot boast.

Paul gives the example of his conversion:

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
In Christ alone and for the Glory of God alone.

But again your point was that we choose. We do choose and serve God and that is a gift from God as well for while we were dead in our sins, God makes us alive in Christ (Ephesians 2), which is the promise of the New Covenant as prophesied in the OT Scriptures:

Ezekiel 11:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 36:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 36:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

YHWH says "I will" several times in those passages.

I wish I could find one video which showed John Piper telling a doubting person she most probably was not saved.

I wish you could too. How about a quote from a sourced sermon, that would help. Or even from some confession of faith, that would help.

And here he is saying anyone who believes will be saved...
WHAT'S GOING ON??

Jesus said that too!

John 3: NASB

14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

John 5: NASB

24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

And belief implies the faith Paul and Peter speaks of in their epistles. It is an effectual faith which submits to the Lordship of Jesus Christ as our King and Master. Because what God has wrought in His Divine love towards us (Ephesians 2:8-10) "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Which as pointed out above in Ezekiel 36:26-27 God causes us to walk in His ways.

The question is what if we do not walk in His ways? The apostle Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are truly in the faith:

2 Corinthians 13:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

This evokes once again Romans 8:16.

 

[redleghunter]

IF God chose those who will be saved, it means He predestined the others to hell.

Paul and Peter speak much on those who are called in Christ are the elect. They do not explicitly speak of people being 'elect for condemnation.' But Paul does explain what does condemn people and how God does judge unrighteousness:

Romans 1: NASB

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Then Paul in Romans chapter 6 explains we humans do have a will (not the post-modern version of libertarian 'free will') but it is in bondage to either sin and death or in bondage to Christ and righteousness:

Romans 6: NASB

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

What kind of a God is that?

A God who chooses some and not others? I would consider that our God has a purpose and will which is not fully understood by His creation.

Paul in Romans 9 does try to explain this within human capacity of what he observed from the Holy Scriptures and what was taught by Christ Jesus. He is explaining to the Romans why Israel was blinded so that the Gentiles might be taken in:

Romans 9: NASB

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Now unless one is a Universalist, we know some or many will not be saved and perish. I guess the follow up question based on your own is why would God let some or many perish?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Paul and Peter speak much on those who are called in Christ are the elect. They do not explicitly speak of people being 'elect for condemnation.' But Paul does explain what does condemn people and how God does judge unrighteousness:

Romans 1: NASB

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Then Paul in Romans chapter 6 explains we humans do have a will (not the post-modern version of libertarian 'free will') but it is in bondage to either sin and death or in bondage to Christ and righteousness:

Romans 6: NASB

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.


A God who chooses some and not others? I would consider that our God has a purpose and will which is not fully understood by His creation.

Paul in Romans 9 does try to explain this within human capacity of what he observed from the Holy Scriptures and what was taught by Christ Jesus. He is explaining to the Romans why Israel was blinded so that the Gentiles might be taken in:

Romans 9: NASB

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Now unless one is a Universalist, we know some or many will not be saved and perish. I guess the follow up question based on your own is why would God let some or many perish?

I've read everything you've written above and also in your previous reply to me.

The answer to your question above is that God does not let anyone perish, as is the case in Calvinism.
Each individual person decides for themselves if they want to be saved or not.

From the beginning of time God has revealed Himself to man. Men can decide for themselves what they wish to do with that revelation.

The bible is full of the concept of choice and free will.
I won't go into a verses contest.

I'll only say, as I have with you and others, that God is LOVE, God is MERCY, and God is JUST. Many verses that prove this too. No use posting them. You either believe it or you don't.

The God you serve is not LOVE, He is not MERCIFUL, and He is not JUST since He arbitrarily chooses HIMSELF who will be saved and who will not.

I can understand how many are distressed by not knowing for sure whether or not they are chosen.

I feel secure in my salvation because I cling to Jesus and know that He loves me enough to allow me to cling.

You can't say this.

 

[RDKirk]

Paul and Peter speak much on those who are called in Christ are the elect. They do not explicitly speak of people being 'elect for condemnation.'

I think there is too much doctrinal emphasis placed on this by Reformed Theology.

Paul did say this, but I believe he was emphasizing that salvation was by God's firm, eternal plan, not a matter of momentary whimsy.

Paul was not speaking into a theological vacuum. His Graeco-Roman audience were already very religious. But the gods they knew were fickle gods, favoring you one moment and cursing you the next.

Paul had to teach them that the God of Abraham was a God of long-term plans and certain goals, totally reliable in His favor, and that their salvation had been His intention all along.

 

[redleghunter]

First Post​

Second Post​

I provided both my posts above given you truly did not address my comments and chose to repost your assertions.

I've read everything you've written above and also in your previous reply to me.

The answer to your question above is that God does not let anyone perish, as is the case in Calvinism.
Each individual person decides for themselves if they want to be saved or not.

And once again neither Calvinism nor any Reformed theology believes what you assert. You said you read what I wrote. Those passages, not just plucked verses, but clear teachings of Jesus and His apostles say we do choose, but that choice is colored by who we are in bondage to. Either sin and death or righteousness. We have our wills but they are not truly 'free' in the libertarian sense of "I'm free to go to the market and buy a gallon of milk." We do choose and I pointed that out several times and is what Reformed and every other Christian theology teaches. Yet Biblically Paul says there is a bondage to the human will.

And once again I pointed out God chooses too! He is the one who takes out the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh.

So I do agree those in the Lake of Fire truly chose a path which led to their condemnation. Again I pointed this out from Romans 1 .

From the beginning of time God has revealed Himself to man.

Of course. Yet He chose who He revealed certain mysteries and blessings. Abraham comes to mind. God chose Abraham, Abraham believed and God reckoned (imputed) righteousness to him.

Men can decide for themselves what they wish to do with that revelation.

Of course. One can decide with either a heart of stone or a heart of flesh. Again who replaces the heart of stone with the heart of flesh? God does, that is His sovereign act. This is the New Covenant Promise I quoted from Ezekiel 36:26-27 . As Ephesians 2 points out we are dead in our trespasses until God makes us alive, or quickens us:

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

 

[redleghunter]

The bible is full of the concept of choice and free will.
I won't go into a verses contest.

You don't have to quote plucked out verses. Provide the complete narrative of a passage within context as I have and we can discuss. Show me how someone who has not been given a heart of flesh can even choose God. Show me how someone dead in their trespasses can choose God without being made alive in Christ. Show me someone who is not called of God actually decides to choose Him on their own merits or a perceived inner goodness. Show me how a natural child of wrath, which Paul says is all of us (Ephesians 2:3) chooses God without His intervention.

Then after this maybe you can tell me why some respond to the Gospel of Grace in faith and repentance unto salvation and others do not.

Then perhaps you can answer the original question I had based on the inquiries above. Why would God allow some to respond to the Gospel and others not to respond? Why are some inclined to your "free will" to accept the Gospel and why are some inclined not to?

I'll only say, as I have with you and others, that God is LOVE, God is MERCY, and God is JUST. Many verses that prove this too. No use posting them. You either believe it or you don't.

I quoted several passages which show that God taking out our heart of stone and giving us a heart of flesh is His Love. I quoted Romans 8 which addresses the Love of God and just above Ephesians 2 which states taking us from a spiritually dead state to being alive in Christ is God's Mercy and Love. So you probably missed that but my previous quotes in my previous posts.

The God you serve is not LOVE, He is not MERCIFUL, and He is not JUST since He arbitrarily chooses HIMSELF who will be saved and who will not.

I just pointed out in several the passages where God's Love and Mercy are demonstrated as while we were yet sinners Christ died for us; and God being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) (Ephesians 2:4-5).

And I also shared Romans 9 where the apostle observes and writes:

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Which is not Calvinism, nor Reformed nor any 'ism' but apostolic teaching. In which once again you charge the Almighty here again:

The God you serve is not LOVE, He is not MERCIFUL, and He is not JUST since He arbitrarily chooses HIMSELF who will be saved and who will not.

Which the apostle answers you here in the same chapter Romans 9:

20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

If you believe this to be 'harsh' teaching by the apostle Paul, then I can also pose a similar question:

Why does a loving and merciful God allow any to perish? Why does He allow our human will to reject His Beloved Son in Whom He is well pleased?

While you are pondering the above perhaps you can answer why even Jesus chose who would understand His teachings and who would not:

Luke 8: NASB

9His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant. 10And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

Jesus was quoting from the OT:

Deuteronomy 29:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Jeremiah 5:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

Isaiah 42:19-20 King James Version (KJV)
19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant?

20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

And the apostle Paul picks up on the teachings of Christ:

Romans 11:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

2 Corinthians 3:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.​