GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

[sparow]

He goes out of his way in Matthew 5 to focus on specific commandments from "The TEN" and in Matthew 19 He says "if you would enter into eternal life - keep the Commandments". When asked "Which ones?" -- He then quotes "from the TEN". As does Paul in Romans 13.

So then Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.

so that would be "scripture" = "The Law and the Prophets"

Matthew 5
I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

The result is as we see it in Ephesians 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: in that still-valid unit of TEN -- written on the heart under the Jeremiah 31 "New Covenant"

In that you think you disagree with me I believe you take Matt 5 out of the context of the OT and the covenant; as though Jesus was not fulfilling the OT when He is quoted in Matt 5.

 

[BobRyan]

In that you think you disagree with me I believe you take Matt 5 out of the context of the OT and the covenant; as though Jesus was not fulfilling the OT when He is quoted in Matt 5.

No statement says that the Bible has been "fulfilled" (as in ended) as we probably both agree.

The Bible is 'The Word of God" and God's predictions get fulfilled but His commands/doctrine/history/instruction remain.

When a command saying "Do not take God's name in vain" or to go 55 MPH on the highway is complied with - it is not also by virtue of that compliance - deleted. I think we all may agree to this.

 

[BobRyan]

I am not sure that we disagree. I have lost track of our conversation, but I was addressing a false doctrine which you appear to not subscribe to. The false doctrine being, "Jesus kept the Law perfectly so we do not have to"; people who do subscribe to that doctrine quote Matt 5:17 as the proof.

I also may have misunderstood your point. Certainly it is true that Jesus complied with all the commands of God's Word (which in fact are His Word in the OT)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I am not sure that we disagree. I have lost track of our conversation, but I was addressing a false doctrine which you appear to not subscribe to. The false doctrine being, "Jesus kept the Law perfectly so we do not have to"; people who do subscribe to that doctrine quote Matt 5:17 as the proof.

Looking at the scriptures 5:48, the word 'perfect' is silly, unless otherwise defined it has an irrational concept; Strong says the word is "complete". The idea is Jesus kept the Law perfectly but you and I are unable to. Jesus askes us to keep the Law as He kept it and to overcome as He overcome and it is not difficult; we have not been asked to do the impossible.

In verse 17, He came to fulfil the Law and the Prophets and in Luke He includes the Psalms; He came to fulfil the whole of the OT; came to honour God's commitments under the covenant. In verse 18, the covenant may not be changed; and then goes on to stress mans obligation (the Commandments) under the covenant. Moses calls the commandments the Law and vice versus; but the commandments are Mans part in the covenant; God's part is to shed His blood when the commandments are broken, among other things.

Hello brother sparrow,

Please forgive me if I had a misunderstanding of what you were saying. As I was responding to the section in an earlier of post of yours as I thought that you were saying that in Matthew 5, Jesus was only fulfilling prophecy. I have heard some people claim this and try and teach God's 10 Commandments has been abolished. It seems you are not saying this at all so perhaps it was my misunderstanding brother of what you were saying. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and providing some clarification and sorry for my misunderstanding.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[sparow]

I also may have misunderstood your point. Certainly it is true that Jesus complied with all the commands of God's Word (which in fact are His Word in the OT)

You may still not get my point. Every thing in scripture is about the kingdom of God and the covenant that defines the kingdom. The covenant is where God promises to do certain things on the condition that Israel does certain things. Israel is required to keep the commandments, make an oath and enter in to the sanctuary of God; it is possible to keep the commandment and not enter in; which is useless.

In Matt 5:17 Jesus refers to fulfilling God's part in the covenant; confirming the covenant; transforming promise to reality; which has only been partly done to date.

Matthew 23:37 (NKJV)
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Isaiah 1:19 (NKJV)
19 If you are willing and obedient, You shall eat the good of the land;

Isaiah 30:15 (NKJV)
15 For thus says the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel: "In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quietness and confidence shall be your strength." But you would not,

Isaiah 42:24 (NKJV)
24 Who gave Jacob for plunder, and Israel to the robbers? Was it not the LORD, He against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in His ways, Nor were they obedient to His law.

Deuteronomy 23:1 (RSV)
1 "He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the LORD.

Deuteronomy 29:12 (NKJV)
12 that you may enter into covenant with the LORD your God, and into His oath, which the LORD your God makes with you today,

Hebrews 4:6 (NKJV)
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,

 

[ace of hearts]

PART 1/2

THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN - GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN

The very same topics that we discuss here was also discussed in the day of Jesus. The mainstream preachers of Christ's time all claimed to be Children of God because their claim was that they were the Children of Abraham right? This was their claim to being God's people.

JOHN 8:33-45

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say thou, Ye shall be made free?

They claimed belief on the God of Abraham, they claimed to be in bondage to no man. But what did Jesus tell them...............?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

There is more on this engagement between Jesus and the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of His time in John 8.

Certainly the Pharisees studied the bible as it existed then. AS did Jesus.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Yet these two factions, Jesus and the Mainstream preachers of His time had almost opposite understandings of the Bible.

It is fair to say not all Jews of that time had the same understanding as the Mainstream Preachers.

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So there seems to be a trend here.

The Mainstream Preachers claimed to be God's people, they read God's Words, yet they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own doctrines and traditions." (Matthew 15:3-9)

Yet there is no indication that Zacharias or Jesus did this and followed them.

So we have one example of understanding that was gained by study in obedience to the instructions in God's Word, ( Zacharias and Jesus)

And another example of study in disobedience to the instructions of God's Word. (Mainstream preachers of that time)

There were more than just Zacharias.

Matthew 2:1-2 1, Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Here is another example of people who had a completely different understanding than the Mainstream preachers of that time. Is it wrong to assume that they, like Zacharias, also studied in obedience to the instruction?

And Peter, which side of this topic did he fall on?

Acts 5:32-33 33, And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

Now why was it that the Jews sought to persecute Jesus and the prophets? It was because they refused to obey the instruction of God, and created their own instructions, and the other example did not.

So fast forward to today. We have a Mainstream Christian teaching that "Transgresses the Commandments of God by their own traditions and doctrines."

This is not a judgment, rather, a simple fact.

It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Sabbath Commandment and replace it with the Catholic Sabbath (Sunday worship). It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to create images of God in the likeness of some long haired men's shampoo model, transgressing the first and greatest commandment.
It is Mainstream Christian Tradition to transgress God's Food Laws, and create their own definition of clean and unclean.

So it seems that even today, if a person studies in obedience to God's simple instructions he see's the scripture one way.

If a person studies scripture in disobedience following the traditions and teachings of man in place of God's Word and to God's simple instructions, he sees the scripture in another way.

I believe what Peter taught, that the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) is given to those who do not "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own religious doctrines and traditions.

But I also know from Peter and Jesus that this belief will infuriate "many" who come in Christ's/God's name.

23 "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them."

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved."

My hope is that you might consider these words and understand.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Is it evil or righteous to transgress the commandments of God by doctrines and traditions of men?)

20 For every one that doeth evil (Transgress God's Commandments by their own Traditions) hates the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Is this why the Mainstream preachers of Peters time set about to kill or silence Peter, so he wouldn't expose their transgression of God's Commandments?

21 But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest,.(let your light shine) that they are wrought in God.

So a circle complete once again. Those who live a doctrine created (wrought) by God have a different understanding than those who live a doctrine created by man who follow the traditions of man. The above was shared with me recently by a friend. I hope it was a blessing to you as it was for me.

Now the important question is who should we obey God or man...............?

The Jews (Pharisees/Lawyers) had placed so many restrictions on the Sabbath commandment through there man made traditions that it had become a burden to the people and was nearly impossible to keep (Luke 13:14; John 5:10-18; 9:16; etc.).

This was never how the Sabbath was to be kept. What did Jesus teach us about the Sabbath? Let's look to the Word of God.....

1. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)
2. Jesus made the Sabbath for all mankind (Mark 2:27)
3. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)
4. If you do not believe and follow God you cannot enter His Sabbath rest (Hebrews 4)
5. It is one of God’s 10 commandments we break it we are guilty or breaking all (James 2:8-12)
6. Breaking it is sin (1 John 3:4)
7. God’s true followers keep it Holy as God commanded (Rev 14:12; Rev 22:14; Eze 20:20)
8. Jesus is our example and he kept the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matt 16:24; 1 Cor 11:1; Eph 5:1-21; Pet 2:20-22)
9. The Apostle kept the Sabbath (Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Rev 1:10)

God’s Law in the NC is written on our hearts it is through love and it is love that fulfills God’s Law in us as we walk not after the flesh but after the spirit and is why Jesus says f you love me keep my commandments. (John 14:15; John 15:10). If we knowingly and willfully break one of God’s commandments we commit sin (1 John 3:4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which Jesus made for us and commands us to keep as a holy day.

God gives us the other six days to labor and work and do whatever we like. We worship God everyday but the 7th Day God says is a Holy day that God has made for His people. Jesus is the maker of this day. It is the "Lords Day" and God has commanded us to keep it Holy (Mark 2:27-28; Exodus 20:8-11). The Sabbath is a sign that we worship the only true God of creation (Ezekiel 20:12). We follow Jesus because we love him (John 14:15;15:10). Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us as we walk by faith in the Spirit.

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PART 2/2 GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN LINKED CLICK ME

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NOTE: PLEASE NO FLAMING OR GOADING; THIS IS A DISCUSSION THREAD ONLY FOR
SHARING GOD'S WORD IN LOVE; FRIENDLY DISCUSSION PLEASE!
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Thanks also to a friend (Studyman) from CC for the inspiration and contribution to this OP. May God bless you as you all as you seek him through His Word.

Scripture is one thing, but to argue based on religion is quite another. Your posted statement aren't facts. Yes I know what the RCC claim. Just doesn't make it so.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Scripture is one thing, but to argue based on religion is quite another. Your posted statement aren't facts. Yes I know what the RCC claim. Just doesn't make it so.

Hello brother AOH nice to meet you here and welcome. If you disagree than please address all the scriptures in the OP.

Thanks for your thoughts though.

May God guide you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[sparow]

Scripture is one thing, but to argue based on religion is quite another. Your posted statement aren't facts. Yes I know what the RCC claim. Just doesn't make it so.

I agree with your sentiments, but the posted facts are reasonable and are a SDA position not Catholic. The Catholics were the first (or maybe their predecessors) to abrogate the Law or covenant; the protestants failed to come all the way back to the faith given to the apostles by Christ.

All Christian religions by some degree use interpretations of scripture as doctrine; but it doesn't stop there, some use interpretations of interpretations of interpretations and so on.

 

[ace of hearts]

Hello brother AOH nice to meet you here and welcome. If you disagree than please address all the scriptures in the OP.

Thanks for your thoughts though.

May God guide you as you seek him through his Word.

I addressed your statement about the RCC. Your statement about the RCC isn't Scripture. I may come back and address the rest of your post.

 

[ace of hearts]

I agree with your sentiments, but the posted facts are reasonable and are a SDA position not Catholic. The Catholics were the first (or maybe their predecessors) to abrogate the Law or covenant; the protestants failed to come all the way back to the faith given to the apostles by Christ.

All Christian religions by some degree use interpretations of scripture as doctrine; but it doesn't stop there, some use interpretations of interpretations of interpretations and so on.

Church history won't support your post.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I addressed your statement about the RCC. Your statement about the RCC isn't Scripture. I may come back and address the rest of your post.

What statement? Sorry brother your word is not God's WORD and you have not addressed the OP here. Do you have any scripture to share?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Church history won't support your post.

Whose church history? That of the RCC?

 

[Lost4words]

Sabbath is for the Jews. Sunday is for Christians. We celebrate Our Lords ressurection.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sabbath is for the Jews. Sunday is for Christians. We celebrate Our Lords ressurection.

Not really brother, the Sabbath was made for all mankind.

MARK 2:27 [27] 27, And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.

 

[Lost4words]

Not really brother, the Sabbath was made for all mankind.

MARK 2:27 [27] 27, And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.

Interpretation yet again. Sabbath belongs to the Jews. Christians celebrate the Resurrection of Our Lord which was on a sunday.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Interpretation yet again. Sabbath belongs to the Jews. Christians celebrate the Resurrection of Our Lord which was on a sunday.

Not really brother you said the Sabbath was only for the Jews. JESUS says the Sabbath was made for mankind.

MARK 2:27 [27] 27, And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

Who should we believe you or God? Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it *ACTS 5:29

 

[Lost4words]

Not really brother you said the Sabbath was only for the Jews. JESUS says the Sabbath was made for mankind.

MARK 2:27 [27] 27, And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

Who should we believe you or God? Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it *ACTS 5:29

Still, i believe Jesus was referring to the Jewish Sabbath. What other sabbath was there?

Christians celebrate the ressurection of Our Lord, which, was on a sunday.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Still, i believe Jesus was referring to the Jewish Sabbath. What other sabbath was there?

Christians celebrate the ressurection of Our Lord, which, was on a sunday.

As the scripture reads the Sabbath was not made for the JEW it was made for all mankind. As JESUS says..

MARK 2:27 [27] 27, And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

You do know that the Sabbath was made in the creation week right before sin entered into the world when mankind was in perfect harmony with God and there was no JEWS right? *GENESIS 2:1-3.

There is no scripture commanding christians to worship God on Sunday just as there is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished. This is a teaching and traditions of men that has led many to break God's 4th commandment handed down by the Roman Catholic Church

Cofessions of the Roman Catholic Church

 

[Lost4words]

As the scripture reads the Sabbath was not made for the JEW it was made for all mankind. As JESUS says..

MARK 2:27 [27] 27, And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

You do know that the Sabbath was made in the creation week right before sin entered into the world when mankind was in perfect harmony with God and there was no JEWS right? *GENESIS 2:1-3.

There is no scripture commanding christians to worship God on Sunday just as there is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished. This is a teaching and traditions of men that has led many to break God's 4th commandment handed down by the Roman Catholic Church

Cofessions of the Roman Catholic Church

What day is the 7th day in Genesis?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What day is the 7th day in Genesis?

The SEVENTH DAY is the Sabbath in GENESIS.

GENESIS 2:1-3
[1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
[2], And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
[3], And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

In the HEBREW the days are called Day 1, Day 2, Day 3, Day 4, Day 5, Day 6 (Preparation day before the Sabbath), and Day 7 (Sabbath) according to God's naming of the days in GENESIS.

This is equivallent to our Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.