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James: "The Effectual, Fervent Prayer of the Righteous Man..."

2PhiloVoid

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Then do what countless others do, in such situations. Either do not respond, or wait until you've formulated your thoughts and/or have more time.

Or, you can just acknowledge that God atones to Himself, which appears odd.

I don't think it's all that "odd" to say that God, in the fullness of His being as He interacts with humanity, provides the spiritual economy (covenants) by which we receive His grace, mercy, and love ...
 
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cvanwey

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both your heart and your brain aren't "parts"; rather they are organic entities that constitute the whole you.

Disagree. If I receive a heart transplant, am I still me? If I receive a new kidney, am I still me? If I receive a new lung, am I still me? So yes, they are "parts".

As for the brain, this is where all your thoughts and personality derive.
The brain IS the whole current (you), so-to-speak...

So, let's not equivocate our denotation here.

Then please stop with your attempts at analogies for the trinity :)

Jesus and the Father are in some sense different entitities within the same unified Entity; 3-in-1. It's a mystery to us that we can't explain, and I don't think we were ever meant to fully understand it.

Then stop trying. But it's pretty straight forward really. Christians claim monotheism, not polytheism.

In such a claim, God atones to Himself. Admitting the apparent problem is half the battle.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Disagree. If I receive a heart transplant, am I still me? If I receive a new kidney, am I still me? If I receive a new lung, am I still me? So yes, they are "parts".

As for the brain, this is where all your thoughts and personality derive.
The brain IS the whole current (you), so-to-speak...



Then please stop with your attempts at analogies for the trinity :)



Then stop trying. But it's pretty straight forward really. Christians claim monotheism, not polytheism.

In such a claim, God atones to Himself. Admitting the apparent problem is half the battle.

Sure, God "atones" to Himself, but in saying this, we STILL have to understand that Jesus is NOT the Father or the Holy Spirit, even though they are in some way integral to each other.

And if you want me to modify my analogy, then we might say that the Logos of God is the Frontal Lobe of the Mind of God, or something similar. I mean, WHO REALLY KNOWS?! And why does it matter? Do you want to 'improve' on the analogy? Then please be my guest and do so!
 
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cvanwey

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No, you never answered. I was only acknowledging that.

O, but I sure did.

The answer, thus far is that you are presenting a very hypothetical question, which needs further clarification prior to proceeding coherently.
 
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cvanwey

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Sure, God "atones" to Himself

So why did I have to respond many times to simply get you to acknowledge this quick and obvious reality? Why the push-back? Is it because it appears very awkward to reconcile such a scenario, in atonement to yourself?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So why did I have to respond many times to simply get you to acknowledge this quick and obvious reality? Why the push-back? Is it because it appears very awkward to reconcile such a scenario, in atonement to yourself?

Do you want someone to admit that cvanwey is correct about something? ok. I'll say you're correct but with the caveat that when we say that "God atones to Himself," we're NOT at the same time saying something like: Jesus is the Father who prays to Himself, and then dies for and to Himself ... or some other silliness.
 
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cvanwey

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Do you want someone to admit that cvanwey is correct about something? ok. I'll say you're correct but with the caveat that when we say that "God atones to Himself," we're NOT at the same time saying something like: Jesus is the Father who prays to Himself, and then dies for and to Himself ... or some other silliness.

I'm after the truth, that's all. If such a scenario was actually true, I find it bazaar that an entity would give reparations to their self? Again, if you claim to be a monotheist, one has no choice but to reconcile ONE supreme being, not three. Yes, the being could change form, or multiply in sorts, but it is all the same 'unified conscious state'. Otherwise, you must then instead reconcile that they may also carry differing traits, making their personalities possibly different. Which would then mean you are worshiping more that one supreme being.

To simplify, think of it this way....

I'm the supreme being. I clone myself so the clone of me can atone back to me. Does this make any logical sense to perform? It does not jive....
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'm after the truth, that's all. If such a scenario was actually true, I find it bazaar that an entity would give reparations to their self? Again, if you claim to be a monotheist, one has no choice but to reconcile ONE supreme being, not three. Yes, the being could change form, or multiply in sorts, but it is all the same 'unified conscious state'. Otherwise, you must then instead reconcile that they may also carry differing traits, making their personalities possibly different. Which would then mean you are worshiping more that one supreme being.

To simplify, think of it this way....

I'm the supreme being. I clone myself so the clone of me can atone to back to me. Does this make any logical sense to perform? It does not jive....

When you were a Christian, were you by chance a 'oneness Pentecostal?'
 
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cvanwey

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When you were a Christian, were you by chance a 'oneness Pentecostal?'

Nope. Catholic, then non denom... But not sure how this is relevant. Truth is truth regardless of prior background.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'm after the truth, that's all. If such a scenario was actually true, I find it bazaar that an entity would give reparations to their self? Again, if you claim to be a monotheist, one has no choice but to reconcile ONE supreme being, not three. Yes, the being could change form, or multiply in sorts, but it is all the same 'unified conscious state'. Otherwise, you must then instead reconcile that they may also carry differing traits, making their personalities possibly different. Which would then mean you are worshiping more that one supreme being.

To simplify, think of it this way....

I'm the supreme being. I clone myself so the clone of me can atone back to me. Does this make any logical sense to perform? It does not jive....

Ok. Yes, the whole Christian scenario is bizarre. Kierkegaard would have called it paradoxical. But so what in either case?
 
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cvanwey

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Ok. Yes, the whole Christian scenario is bizarre. Kierkegaard would have called it paradoxical. But so what in either case?

In the end, all questions here boil down to the same thing really...

If Yahweh does exist, we can scrutinize all we wish, but it does not change the conclusion.

But as of now, all one is left to do is critique, investigate, and scrutinize, to formulate our final conclusions accordingly; until such time as such a claimed being decides to actually provide revelation in a testable and accountable way. So until then, this forum lives on ;) And no wonder the word 'faith' is used so heavily in the Bible.
 
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cvanwey

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I think the question is a very narrow question ignoring God's attributes, His Holiness and the nature of what sin really is.

What I find to be 'ignoring' is the fact that God appears to have cloned Himself, and for the clone to atone back to Him, and that many here do not simply seem to reconcile as such.... This is not a 'narrow' observation. Quite frankly, it has been a heated and widely discussed topic since the concept of a Holy Trinity was first brought forth. But if you care to broaden the question, then maybe we can also discuss the (possibilities) that the concept of a trinity was not invented until later :0
 
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2PhiloVoid

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In the end, all questions here boil down to the same thing really...

If Yahweh does exist, we can scrutinize all we wish, but it does not change the conclusion.

But as of now, all one is left to do is critique, investigate, and scrutinize, to formulate our final conclusions accordingly; until such time as such a claimed being decides to actually provide revelation in a testable and accountable way. So until then, this forum lives on ;) And no wonder the word 'faith' is used so heavily in the Bible.

To some extent you're correct, epistemologically speaking, and a good portion of the 'truth' which both you and I would really like to have about God, if He exists, seems to be not only shrouded in mystery, but locked up in it. With that said, while I commiserate with you about the limits of what it seems that God, in His Hiddeness, is permitting us to ponder, I still don't personally define faith in the way you're doing. For me "faith" is a response to THAT LIMITED AMOUNT (or set) of revealed content that God has provided through the (primarily) Jewish people.

So, for instance, since Paul the Apostle was a 'part' of the historical revealing of the Gospel of Christ to the world, however existentially paradoxical and less than satisfactory all of this kind of thing may seem to be for many people, I won't say that I have "faith" that Paul existed. I will say that I have "faith" that what Paul talks about to the Church of Christ, in concert with what the rest of the writers of the Bible also talk about in their own individual ways, is 'true' and therefore provides metaphysical and theological meaning for me, but I don't expect that it will do so automatically for everyone else.
 
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cvanwey

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To some extent you're correct, epistemologically speaking, and a good portion of the 'truth' which both you and I would really like to have about God, if He exists, seems to be not only shrouded in mystery, but locked up in it. With that said, while I commiserate with you about the limits of what it seems that God, in His Hiddeness, is permitting us to ponder, I still don't personally define faith in the way you're doing. For me "faith" is a response to THAT LIMITED AMOUNT (or set) of revealed content that God has provided through the (primarily) Jewish people.

So, for instance, since Paul the Apostle was a 'part' of the historical revealing of the Gospel of Christ to the world, however existentially paradoxical and less than satisfactory all of this kind of thing may seem to be for many people, I won't say that I have "faith" that Paul existed. I will say that I have "faith" that what Paul talks about to the Church of Christ, in concert with what the rest of the writers of the Bible also talk about in their own individual ways, is 'true' and therefore provides metaphysical and theological meaning for me, but I don't expect that it will do so automatically for everyone else.

I've acknowledged elsewhere, that the word faith means differing things to differing people. Faith has multiple meanings, quite frankly. This is one of the beauties to language. Hence, one of the main reasons we carry debate. But in this particular case, you leave me little choice but to quote an ever-so-popular Bible verse (Hebrews 11)
 
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Petros2015

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What I find to be 'ignoring' is the fact that God appears to have cloned Himself, and for the clone to atone back to Him

It gets worse, if I am reading it correctly, He is trying to make more clones...!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I've acknowledged elsewhere, that the word faith means differing things to differing people. Faith has multiple meanings, quite frankly. This is one of the beauties to language. Hence, one of the main reasons we carry debate. But in this particular case, you leave me little choice but to quote an ever-so-popular Bible verse (Hebrews 11)

That's a chapter, not a verse. ;) But it's a good start!
 
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cvanwey

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That's a chapter, not a verse. ;) But it's a good start!

Yes, because I started with (verse) 11:1, but then decided to included the entire chapter (so you would not accuse me of cherry picking or something) :)
 
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