James: "The Effectual, Fervent Prayer of the Righteous Man..."

[Steve Petersen]

availeth little.

Ask the six million Jews who were snuffed out by the Nazis.

What? Did God suddenly change his mind about prayer? Maybe he isn't as involved in the affairs of the world as some people think.

 

[Sam91]

Well, I have never found prayer to be fruitless. Neither did Christ. He prayed even though He knew His task was imminent. He withdrew and made use of the time to pray.

Prayer gives us strength and comfort. Praising Him in trials produces peace and fortitude and strength to endure.

Paul said to live is Christ to die is gain. I would commend his example in Philippians as useful in helping you to understand the joy the Father gives even in the most difficult trials. (Also see Jesus' prayers in the book of John just before His arrest. Infact, He even spoke to the Father while on the cross when He said 'Forgive them, they know not what they do').

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

availeth little.

Ask the six million Jews who were snuffed out by the Nazis.

What? Did God suddenly change his mind about prayer? Maybe he isn't as involved in the affairs of the world as some people think.

It is too bad that your God is so distant and detached. I just got word that my God healed someone of their sciatica! I could share many more stories of people healed in the Name of Jesus Christ. I could share the story of two boys who came to Christ after seeing a big man crying like a baby after his pain syndrome left and he was free to hold his little girl without immense pain. I am sure God has healed many I don't know about, as well! I have incredible peace, no matter what threat comes my way--I'm sure just like Peter and Paul--despite what they were going through. What a blessing to know where I am going, so I don't have to fret about death. What a blessing to know whose I am, so I don't have to succumb to other's threats or potential dangers.

I wish had a desire to know Him, too. But, we each get to make our own choices. He knows our hearts!

 

[Steve Petersen]

Both these responses didn't address the Holocaust and why God ignored the prayers of righteous Jews.

 

[Hammster]

Both these responses didn't address the Holocaust and why God ignored the prayers of righteous Jews.

They reject Christ.

Could be the reason.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

They reject Christ.

Could be the reason.

Surely one in a million Jews was a Christian. Also Hitler targeted the gypsy population along with cripples and other "useless eaters." Surely some of those were Christian.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Both these responses didn't address the Holocaust and why God ignored the prayers of righteous Jews.

1. Last time I looked in the mirror, I wasn't God. As someone much lower than God, I am not responsible for answering for what God allows or explaining why He might have allowed it.
2. We don't know if there were in fact any righteous Jews among those killed.
3. But, whether there were or weren't righteous Jews among them, we don't know that all their prayers were ignored. The Apostles of Christ had a lot of prayers answered before being killed, yet they were killed. If you only knew the end result, you might think they didn't get their prayers answered to, but you'd be wrong. Stephen had a lot of prayers answered before being killed and when he was killed, his asked God not to hold that sin against them. There were a lot of Christian martyrs in the early church who followed in the footsteps of Jesus.
4. Maybe you don't value what God values and that is why you don't see the prayer results we see or the bigger picture that God sees.

 

[Hammster]

Surely one in a million Jews was a Christian. Also Hitler targeted the gypsy population along with cripples and other "useless eaters." Surely some of those were Christian.

Sometimes He says no.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Sometimes He says no.

Well if I had the ability to save someone from a concentration camp, my desire to do so would not be lacking. When neither ability nor desire is lacking, action is taken. Also, my desire to help them would not be contingent upon their religious beliefs.

 

[Par5]

It is too bad that your God is so distant and detached. I just got word that my God healed someone of their sciatica! I could share many more stories of people healed in the Name of Jesus Christ. I could share the story of two boys who came to Christ after seeing a big man crying like a baby after his pain syndrome left and he was free to hold his little girl without immense pain. I am sure God has healed many I don't know about, as well! I have incredible peace, no matter what threat comes my way--I'm sure just like Peter and Paul--despite what they were going through. What a blessing to know where I am going, so I don't have to fret about death. What a blessing to know whose I am, so I don't have to succumb to other's threats or potential dangers.

I wish had a desire to know Him, too. But, we each get to make our own choices. He knows our hearts!

Lots of people who have sciatica find that their symptoms disappear after a time, just as mine did. I certainly did not ask for any divine intervention.
I have a dear friend who is at this very moment in a hospital intensive care unit as a result of a very serious road accident. The para-medics worked on my friend at the roadside until they felt they could get him to the hospital. Had the para-medics not arrived to help stabilize him enough to transport him to hospital, he would have died at the roadside and no amount of prayer would have kept him alive.
Once in intensive care, but for being on life support, he would have died and no amount of prayer would have saved him. He is now off the venilator and breathing on his own but is still seriously ill. If he pulls through it will be thanks to the dedicated team of medical professionals who will be responsible for that, nothing else. I know that people are praying for my friend and no doubt if he pulls through there will be a lot of "Thank the Lord, Praise God for allowing him to live".
If I was a medical professional I would be rarher miffed if I though that a successful outcome depended on the whim of some invisible being thus relegating my best efforts to save someone's life to nothing more than hit or miss.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Lots of people who have sciatica find that their symptoms disappear after a time, just as mine did. I certainly did not ask for any divine intervention.
I have a dear friend who is at this very moment in a hospital intensive care unit as a result of a very serious road accident. The para-medics worked on my friend at the roadside until they felt they could get him to the hospital. Had the para-medics not arrived to help stabilize him enough to transport him to hospital, he would have died at the roadside and no amount of prayer would have kept him alive.
Once in intensive care, but for being on life support, he would have died and no amount of prayer would have saved him. He is now off the venilator and breathing on his own but is still seriously ill. If he pulls through it will be thanks to the dedicated team of medical professionals who will be responsible for that, nothing else. I know that people are praying for my friend and no doubt if he pulls through there will be a lot of "Thank the Lord, Praise God for allowing him to live".
If I was a medical professional I would be rarher miffed if I though that a successful outcome depended on the whim of some invisible being thus relegating my best efforts to save someone's life to nothing more than hit or miss.

That is what you believe and if you were a prideful medical professional, that would also be your problem, not mine.

I know plenty of medical professionals who know God is the life-giver and they actually use prayer as part of their medical practice. Certainly, even an atheist EMT could be used to help someone in a serious situation, if God wanted them still here. And, God could still allow someone to die when a Christian EMT comes to an accident and administers medical help while also quietly praying for the person.

We can each believe what we want. God gives us that amazing freedom of choice. But, we also reap the consequences of a wrong choice. Whether I'm right or wrong, I look stupid to you in this life. And, that's okay to me. If your wrong, the penalty is much greater for you.

I also understand that the nerve (which causes sciatica) can certainly become unpinched. And, if we hadn't laid hands on the guy and watched God instantly take his pain away, then your point might be valid. But, given the immediacy of the healing right after the prayer, in this situation, your theory is the one that isn't backed by the evidence--but, then again, that is exactly what an atheist's theories usually are based on (a complete lack of evidence), so they need to make stuff up and reject the Truth no matter how undeniably likely.

 

[Hammster]

Well if I had the ability to save someone from a concentration camp, my desire to do so would not be lacking. When neither ability nor desire is lacking, action is taken. Also, my desire to help them would not be contingent upon their religious beliefs.

Okay. But you forget one thing. Every single person that died was a vile sinner, just like you and I. So every single person was deserving of death and an eternity in hell.

God is under no obligation to save anyone, either from an immediate crisis or from eternal torment. It’s only by His grace that anyone is ever saved at all from anything.

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- - Ephesians 2:1-5

 

[Par5]

Okay. But you forget one thing. Every single person that died was a vile sinner, just like you and I. So every single person was deserving of death and an eternity in hell.

God is under no obligation to save anyone, either from an immediate crisis or from eternal torment. It’s only by His grace that anyone is ever saved at all from anything.

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- - Ephesians 2:1-5

My my, so you think everyone is vile and a sinner. Life must be extremely difficult for you having to live among such people. Perhaps you would be better just to stay at home and turn the lights out!

That is what you believe and if you were a prideful medical professional, that would also be your problem, not mine.

I know plenty of medical professionals who know God is the life-giver and they actually use prayer as part of their medical practice. Certainly, even an atheist EMT could be used to help someone in a serious situation, if God wanted them still here. And, God could still allow someone to die when a Christian EMT comes to an accident and administers medical help while also quietly praying for the person.

We can each believe what we want. God gives us that amazing freedom of choice. But, we also reap the consequences of a wrong choice. Whether I'm right or wrong, I look stupid to you in this life. And, that's okay to me. If your wrong, the penalty is much greater for you.

I also understand that the nerve (which causes sciatica) can certainly become unpinched. And, if we hadn't laid hands on the guy and watched God instantly take his pain away, then your point might be valid. But, given the immediacy of the healing right after the prayer, in this situation, your theory is the one that isn't backed by the evidence--but, then again, that is exactly what an atheist's theories usually are based on (a complete lack of evidence), so they need to make stuff up and reject the Truth no matter how undeniably likely.

So they got lucky. How many failures do these so-called healers get when using prayer? Hospitals are full of people who are going to die in spite of prayers being offered up by the bucketful.
Then you have those religious freaks who don't let their children have proper medical attention because they believe that prayers to their god are all that is needed, and the child dies or develops a more serious condition.
As for you calling some medical professionals "prideful". Well, I for one hope they do take pride in what they are doing as very often they are dealing with someone's
life. I certainly would not like to be lying on an operating table knowing that the surgeon was talking away to some invisible guy in the sky believing that the person he was operating on would only survive so long as his god deemed it so.
Sure there are people who were expected to die but somehow pull through. The cry goes up that god has answered our prayers. I am willing to bet that there is not a religion in the world that in similar circumstances has not uttered those exact same words.

 

[Hammster]

My my, so you think everyone is vile and a sinner. Life must be extremely difficult for you having to live among such people. Perhaps you would be better just to stay at home and turn the lights out!

I am just stating what scripture says.

10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." - Romans 3:10-18

 

[Steve Petersen]

Well if I had the ability to save someone from a concentration camp, my desire to do so would not be lacking. When neither ability nor desire is lacking, action is taken. Also, my desire to help them would not be contingent upon their religious beliefs.

How is it possible for the creature to be more compassionate than his creator? Christians don't seem to want to wrestle with this question. They would rather hand-wave it away.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Lots of people who have sciatica find that their symptoms disappear after a time, just as mine did. I certainly did not ask for any divine intervention.
I have a dear friend who is at this very moment in a hospital intensive care unit as a result of a very serious road accident. The para-medics worked on my friend at the roadside until they felt they could get him to the hospital. Had the para-medics not arrived to help stabilize him enough to transport him to hospital, he would have died at the roadside and no amount of prayer would have kept him alive.
Once in intensive care, but for being on life support, he would have died and no amount of prayer would have saved him. He is now off the venilator and breathing on his own but is still seriously ill. If he pulls through it will be thanks to the dedicated team of medical professionals who will be responsible for that, nothing else. I know that people are praying for my friend and no doubt if he pulls through there will be a lot of "Thank the Lord, Praise God for allowing him to live".
If I was a medical professional I would be rarher miffed if I though that a successful outcome depended on the whim of some invisible being thus relegating my best efforts to save someone's life to nothing more than hit or miss.

Yeah, God cares more about your sciatica than the lives of Jewish people. And you don't see the problem I have with this?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Okay. But you forget one thing. Every single person that died was a vile sinner, just like you and I. So every single person was deserving of death and an eternity in hell.

Oh, right. I forgot about that.

And way to read things out of context. This was about Israel at a certain moment in history, not about every person who has ever lived, forever. Obvious hyperbole by the writer.

 

[Hammster]

Oh, right. I forgot about that.

And way to read things out of context. This was about Israel at a certain moment in history, not about every person who has ever lived, forever. Obvious hyperbole by the writer.

I was referring to those people. There’s no need to get snarky.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Yeah, God cares more about your sciatica than the lives of Jewish people. And you don't see the problem I have with this?

Um ... @Par5 is on your side.

 

[Par5]

Yeah, God cares more about your sciatica than the lives of Jewish people. And you don't see the problem I have with this?

I can most certainly understand the problem you have with a god that you say worries more about someone's sciatica rather than the lives of Jewish people. What I don't understand is where you got the idea that I thought it was my sciatica this god was more worried about.