How is free will possible?

[holo]

So why does Paul use the analogy you use (slavery to sin) and yet plead with people to be saved? That is not possible on your view of determinism. No appeal to individuals to think one way, or evidentiary appeal, or appeal to act would make any sense whatsoever on your view, yet Paul makes those pleas in every book he writes.

Not having free will doesn't equal fatalism in the sense that there's no point in trying to change anything. Paul's pleas would be one of the million things that determined what people choose. It's perfectly possible to not have free will at all and still believe that you do.

 

[RDKirk]

So why does Paul use the analogy you use (slavery to sin) and yet plead with people to be saved? That is not possible on your view of determinism. No appeal to individuals to think one way, or evidentiary appeal, or appeal to act would make any sense whatsoever on your view, yet Paul makes those pleas in every book he writes.

No, you don't know what my view of determinism is.

 

[RDKirk]

Yeah, it does sound kind of absurd. The point is that even if you choose to do what you want to do, you don't get to choose what it is that you want. Like when the bible says a sinner can't not sin. You may say he sins because he wants to sin, but wanting to sin isn't a choice. So even though we make choices all the time, the things that decide what choices we make are beyond our control, and often even beyond our awareness.

Wait, though, that goes into the definition of what "sin" means. Most people, including most Christians, are under the erroneous impression that "sin" refers to a specific act from a list of forbidden acts.

In fact, sin is defined in reverse here:

But without faith it is impossible to please Him -- Hebrews 11

Or, obversely, it is only possible to please the Lord by acts done in faith.

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. -- Romans 6-8

Sin does not lie inherently in a particular act, sin lies in who a person is obeying when he performs the act. Every act not done in conscious obedience to Christ, is a sin.

 

[Ken-1122]

Probably because of their sinful lifestyle choices, but only God knows for sure.

I doubt most Christians would agree with you that Gacy was doing God's will by slaughtering innocent children.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yeah, it does sound kind of absurd. The point is that even if you choose to do what you want to do, you don't get to choose what it is that you want. Like when the bible says a sinner can't not sin. You may say he sins because he wants to sin, but wanting to sin isn't a choice. So even though we make choices all the time, the things that decide what choices we make are beyond our control, and often even beyond our awareness.

I agree I didn't choose to prefer the taste of sweet over bitter, junk food over healthy food, all of that is based on my genetics. But that has nothing to do with free will. Free will is the ability to make choices on my own; it doesn’t involve being able to choose my genetics.

 

[com7fy8]

But God is able to change a person and draw someone to Jesus.

then thats not free will if it can be changed by someone else.

I think it depends on your definition and what you mean by application.

I think the most commonly accepted definition or idea of free will is that each human independently makes one's own choices.

And, like I say, one's own character has a lot to do with what a person is capable of choosing. But this matter of character is not covered in the generally accepted free will idea, as far as I know.

Now, by this definition, I guess we could say God would not change a person to become a believer, unless the person asked God to do this.

But, then, how is an evil-natured person going to change one's own nature to be good for making a good choice about Jesus? I would say someone evil by nature can not get one's own self to freely choose Jesus. So, then, I do not accept the generally accepted idea of free will, I guess.

However, included in the generally accepted idea, ones understand that each of us will answer for what we do. This I accept. We are going to be judged . . . even though, in my opinion, we are stuck with whatever our character is dictating that we are capable of choosing.

A thing is, though, we do make choices. However, our freedom is limited.

 

[holo]

I agree I didn't choose to prefer the taste of sweet over bitter, junk food over healthy food, all of that is based on my genetics. But that has nothing to do with free will. Free will is the ability to make choices on my own; it doesn’t involve being able to choose my genetics.

But your choices are determined by your genes, and all the other things that influence you, like culture, upbringing, what information you've been exposed to and so on. I don't see where this supposedly free will enters the equation. If your choice is influenced by something beyond your control, then it's not free.

 

[Dave L]

I doubt most Christians would agree with you that Gacy was doing God's will by slaughtering innocent children.

Nobody is innocent.

 

[Ken-1122]

Nobody is innocent.

Nobody is innocent IN YOUR BOOK. In my book; everybody is innocent until PROVEN guilty.

 

[Dave L]

Nobody is innocent IN YOUR BOOK. In my book; everybody is innocent until PROVEN guilty.

Not in God's court of law.

 

[Ken-1122]

But your choices are determined by your genes, and all the other things that influence you, like culture, upbringing, what information you've been exposed to and so on.

True! And now all of that is a part of “ME” My genes are me, the culture is me, and everything else you mentioned is now a part of “ME”.

I don't see where this supposedly free will enters the equation.

Because it is only “ME” (my body, genetics, culture, results of upbringing, mind, etc.) who is a part of the decision-making process.

If your choice is influenced by something beyond your control, then it's not free.

The only thing outside of my control is HOW I became me; but it doesn’t matter because once I’ve gotten there, what-ever decisions I make are made by myself not something outside of myself.

 

[Ken-1122]

Not in God's court of law.

I'm not a religious person; so God's court of law means nothing to me.

 

[Dave L]

I'm not a religious person; so God's court of law means nothing to me.

Said the blind man standing on the precipice of the precipice.

 

[Uber Genius]

No, you don't know what my view of determinism is.

Scripture denies free will when it tells us that every person is a slave that must obey a master

This is classic monergism.
Given the context it seems that your quote is representative of the calvinist view of determinism a la Paul Helm, RC Sproul, Tim Keller, John Piper, John MacArthur, James White, etc.

You already recognized that it was a philosophical not a hamartiological (that is we are talking about philosophy of free will not the theology focused on the study of sin.

So if your comment was meant to reflect that sin impairs free will as to make our actions determined that to seems false. It would only impair our freedom to perform Godly actions, that does not mean we are slaves without any freedom.

If you want to engage in a conversation about a view that is not the standard view of determinism in Christianity by all means.

I want to represent your views accurately but given that you are using Calvinistic Deterministic language and phrases, and rejecting my view without enumerating what premises you find false and why, I'm at a loss as how to respond.

 

[Ken-1122]

Said the blind man standing on the precipice of the precipice.

I have no idea what a precipice is, but I can assure you, there are plenty of blind men who believe in your idea of God. But still there isn't an ounce of objective evidence that your idea of God even exist let alone have desires, and make up rules, your entire belief in this God is based on faith. And of course the problem with faith is that there is no means of establishing the truth! So my skepticism should not suprirse to you.

 

[durangodawood]

Your nature is driving your decisions.

Which you said comes entirely from God.

So where's the room for some part of decision making to originate in me?

 

[holo]

True! And now all of that is a part of “ME” My genes are me, the culture is me, and everything else you mentioned is now a part of “ME”.

Exactly. You aren't you. You're an amalgam of all these things. What's more, you're not the same person you were yesterday, or even a minute ago.

The only thing outside of my control is HOW I became me; but it doesn’t matter because once I’ve gotten there, what-ever decisions I make are made by myself not something outside of myself.

When did you become you?

 

[Dave L]

Which you said comes entirely from God.

So where's the room for some part of decision making to originate in me?

It doesn't. You always choose for a reason and reasons are beyond our control.

 

[Dave L]

I have no idea what a precipice is, but I can assure you, there are plenty of blind men who believe in your idea of God. But still there isn't an ounce of objective evidence that your idea of God even exist let alone have desires, and make up rules, your entire belief in this God is based on faith. And of course the problem with faith is that there is no means of establishing the truth! So my skepticism should not suprirse to you.

God is Spirit and the universe is only evidence of his presence. But some people experience God as identified in scripture in their hearts.

 

[durangodawood]

It doesn't. You always choose for a reason and reasons are beyond our control.

What is your definition of "choose" here?