Absolute Predestination

[EmSw]

Our prayers are part of God's plan for us. They align us with all that God ordained for us.

So if we don't pray, does that mean what God ordained can't come to pass?

 

[EmSw]

None have ever been justified by God that was not done thru the Cross of Christ!

Wow, you really don't know what the Bible says, do you?

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Look it up and see what 'righteous' means.

 

[ChurchMilitant]

There NO passages in the scriptures that indicate real Christians can lose eternal life now have in Christ!

How do you interpret the Parable of the Sower, Hebrew 6, and 2nd Peter Chapter 2 then?

 

[Dave L]

So if we don't pray, does that mean what God ordained can't come to pass?

No, but he puts it on our hearts to pray and this puts us in position for receiving.

 

[Dave L]

So a murderer who is put into prison, and does not murder anymore is born again?

So Dave, if you lie, does that show you aren't born again?

Possibly. But the new birth by nature overcomes sin and seeks holiness.

 

[EmSw]

No, but he puts it on our hearts to pray and this puts us in position for receiving.

So it is up to us to bring forth what God ordains, correct?

 

[EmSw]

Possibly. But the new birth by nature overcomes sin and seeks holiness.

Does it also overcome negligence on our part in not keeping His commandments?

 

[1stcenturylady]

There NO passages in the scriptures that indicate real Christians can lose eternal life now have in Christ!

Study to show yourself approved, and not just the veering off course interpretation of your denomination! Many in your denomination and other Reformation denominations are slack on sin because they believe they can never lose their salvation. Beware!

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

2 Peter 2:
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

 

[1stcenturylady]

Paul in Chapter 7 delighted in the law of God, wanted to keep it, but was powerless to do that, and no sinner delights in the law of God!@

You do if you are a Pharisee! They studied the law day and night. And that is what Paul used to be when he was known as Saul. He was even a Zealot! Don't stay ignorant. Study to show yourself approved! Of course Saul "was powerless to do that" BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT, which is given AFTER CHRIST!

Can't you see Romans 7 is all about being under the LAW? It is clear as day even to us reading in a "western" mindset. It is written in plain English. Haven't you heard that we are NOT under the LAW, but in the Spirit? Read it again, and again from verse 7 until you understand. We shouldn't have to go over again and again the milk of the gospel.

 

[JM]

truefic,

Not by their performance, no. But by the orientation of their own will, which opens the door for the grace of the Holy Spirit to operate in them.

The Holy Spirit brings the power the saint needs to triumph over the sinful nature of the flesh. The will of the person, restored by the grace of the Holy Spirit, desires to turn away from sin and toward's the Love of God. God therefore gives the person what they desire and ask for. The will is still intact and is an active agent in this relationship between the person and God. The will retains the ability also to steer the person away from God, onto a sinful path which is not what God wills, but only what God foreknew and therefor preordained (destined). The Bible tells simply that God does not desire the death of a sinner, but that the sinner would turn to Him, and Live, and that God desires for all mankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth (i.e. the knowledge of God).

With respect I would disagree. Let me explain.

Php 2 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The scriptures clearly teach that "it is God which worketh in you..." and please take note, "BOTH to WILL and to DO..."

It is consistent to say the will is a rational factually of the mind used by God to for the accomplishment of "his good pleasure."

But there's really no need to delve into such complex language for most of us simple fishermen. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ always spoke simply and plainly. His first words of public ministry were easily understood by those who would follow Him: "Repent! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

This means "Stop being a sinner and receive the Love of God into yourselves: becoming Love, as God is Love". He tells this to everyone, By His Word, (and through our conscience) not just some, so it's on us, not Him, if we repent or not.

See, its as simple as it gets.

I have already address the issue of human ability and the lack thereof.

God bless and have a Happy Lord's Day,

jm

 

[1stcenturylady]

truefic,



With respect I would disagree. Let me explain.

Php 2 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The scriptures clearly teach that "it is God which worketh in you..." and please take note, "BOTH to WILL and to DO..."

It is consistent to say the will is a rational factually of the mind used by God to for the accomplishment of "his good pleasure."



I have already address the issue of human ability and the lack thereof.

God bless and have a Happy Lord's Day,

jm

You two are saying the same thing. tf says it is the Holy Spirit; you say it is God. Same difference.

 

[JM]

How do you interpret the Parable of the Sower, Hebrew 6, and 2nd Peter Chapter 2 then?

ChurchMilitant,

I like the name!

I watch that YouTube channel everyday for updates on the sex abuse scandals going on at the Vatican. Did you see the episode today about the gay sex party which included priests and a cardinal? I guess they found satanic material at the party as well outlining ritual.

If you could tell us what you believe these passages mean they mean I could respond better.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[JM]

You two are saying the same thing. tf says it is the Holy Spirit; you say it is God. Same difference.

I see a difference...salvation is not a Divine AmWay program, that once we have our will restore WE do the work to sanctify ourselves. Scripture tells us we are saved and made holy by God alone.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[ChurchMilitant]

ChurchMilitant,

I like the name!

I watch that YouTube channel everyday for updates on the sex abuse scandals going on at the Vatican. Did you see the episode today about the gay sex party which included priests and a cardinal? I guess they found satanic material at the party as well outlining ritual.

If you could tell us what you believe these passages mean they mean I could respond better.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I believe as the passages evidently state that one could lose their salvation, as evidenced in my response to what you quoted.

I also like that Catholic Channel(I disagree with them with many things though, especially) but I chose this name because those that are part of the Church are Militant, because they are constantly to be armed(not with physical weapons of course,but spiritual) in order to fight the devil and his followers.

 

[1stcenturylady]

ChurchMilitant,

I like the name!

I watch that YouTube channel everyday for updates on the sex abuse scandals going on at the Vatican. Did you see the episode today about the gay sex party which included priests and a cardinal? I guess they found satanic material at the party as well outlining ritual.

If you could tell us what you believe these passages mean they mean I could respond better.

Yours in the Lord,


jm

Hmmm. Interesting channel.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I see a difference...salvation is not a Divine AmWay program, that once we have our will restore WE do the work to sanctify ourselves. Scripture tells us we are saved and made holy by God alone.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

What do you mean by having our will restored?

 

[JM]

I believe as the passages evidently state that one could lose their salvation, as evidenced in my response to what you quoted.

I also like that Catholic Channel(I disagree with them with many things though, especially) but I chose this name because those that are part of the Church are Militant, because they are constantly to be armed(not with physical weapons of course,but spiritual) in order to fight the devil and his followers.

No one disputes the scriptural warnings about falling away, but the scriptures you pointed to do not support the idea that one day you're saved, the next you're lost. If you believe that, Hebrews 6 is very clear, once lost you can never be restored.

What do you mean by having our will restored?

Joh 8:31-38 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; (32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (33) They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? (34) Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (35) And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. (36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (37) I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. (38) I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

When you are regenerated, born again, we have freedom to fight sin even though sin remains. Before that we are servants of sin. That is the gist of Romans 7.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[ChurchMilitant]

Furthermore, the

No one disputes the scriptural warnings about falling away, but the scriptures you pointed to do not support the idea that one day you're saved, the next you're lost. If you believe that, Hebrews 6 is very clear, once lost you can never be restored.



Joh 8:31-38 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; (32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (33) They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? (34) Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (35) And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. (36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (37) I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. (38) I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

When you are regenerated, born again, we have freedom to fight sin even though sin remains. Before that we are servants of sin. That is the gist of Romans 7.

Yours in the Lord,

Hebrews 6 doesn't affirm that position. Saint Paul(or whoever who wrote Hebrews) makes it clear that those that were "once enlightened can lose the true faith. This is in the beginning chapters of Hebrews 6. I would also like to quote what I stated before in order for people to be aware of what I stated.


So in Matthew 13, Jesus with large crowds gathered around him speaks in parables. He talks in Matthew 13:3-9 about the Parable of the Sower which you can read. The rest of the chapter, the Apostle asks him about why he speaks in parables, he answers, etc. Then he explains in Matthew 13:18-22 what the Parable of the Sower reads. I will quote this passage right now.

Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.


Matthew 13:18-22(Douay Rheims Catholic Bible). If this is not acceptable for anyone, please check the KJV then.
18 Hear you therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, there cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart: this is he that received the seed by the way side.

20 And he that received the seed upon stony ground, is he that heareth the word, and immediately receiveth it with joy.

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but is only for a time: and when there ariseth tribulation and persecution because of the word, he is presently scandalized.

22 And he that received the seed among thorns, is he that heareth the word, and the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choketh up the word, and he becometh fruitless.

I also would like to quote 2nd Peter 2. It's also important because St. Peter in this chapter warns people of false prophets and teachers.

2nd Peter 2:18-22(Douay Rheims Catholic Bible)(Again, if anyone doesn't want to use this, check out the KJV and the New King James Version)
For, speaking proud words of vanity, they allure by the desires of fleshly riotousness, those who for a little while escape, such as converse in error:

19 Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave.

20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them.

22 For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.




Matthew 13(Parable of the Sower)

How do you interpret the Parable of the Sower, Hebrew 6, and 2nd Peter Chapter 2 then?

 

[truefiction1]

truefic,



With respect I would disagree. Let me explain.

Php 2 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The scriptures clearly teach that "it is God which worketh in you..." and please take note, "BOTH to WILL and to DO..."

It is consistent to say the will is a rational factually of the mind used by God to for the accomplishment of "his good pleasure."



I have already address the issue of human ability and the lack thereof.

God bless and have a Happy Lord's Day,

jm

I don't disagree that it's "God working in us". I would just say that as God works in us and through us, there is still an "us" in whom God is working, and the "us" have freewill nonetheless. Grace is not irresistible to us. We choose between continuing to abide in grace, or rather to become slaves of sin, by giving into temptations. Grace and freewill together = what has been termed synergeia.

We know it's true, because what is described above is as is experienced, and being experienced it is seen as coherent with Holy Scripture, the meaning of which is revealed in both Spirit and Word.

 

[1stcenturylady]

No one disputes the scriptural warnings about falling away, but the scriptures you pointed to do not support the idea that one day you're saved, the next you're lost. If you believe that, Hebrews 6 is very clear, once lost you can never be restored.



Joh 8:31-38 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; (32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (33) They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? (34) Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (35) And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. (36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (37) I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. (38) I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

When you are regenerated, born again, we have freedom to fight sin even though sin remains. Before that we are servants of sin. That is the gist of Romans 7.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Romans 7 is about the powerless battle of the flesh while only under the law - NOT the life of a Christian after receiving the all powerful Holy Spirit. I guess it doesn't matter how many times this truth is pointed out, there are those who chose their own way, even though this contrast is spelled out by the apostle Paul.