WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?

[JLB777]

Consider the text you quoted (Romans 13:8-10).

The two key phrases.

'has fulfilled the law'

'the fulfillment of the law'

Does the act of loving others mean that you are fulfilling (obeying) the law? Or does the act of loving others mean that love itself is the fulfillment (completion) of the law?

Loving God and loving our neighbor is the essence of the law as well the doctrine of Christ.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No, it's not. The 10C were merely the bottom line commandments. Murder, not hate; adultery, not lust. The subject is showing partiality and how it breaks the eternal law of God that is written on our hearts, not the 10C. The 10C were shown as an example that if you broke one, you broke them all. That is the only reason they are shown, because everyone was familiar with the 10C and the Old Covenant. But, now that we have the current Law of Liberty from sin through the Spirit, which far surpassed the 10C, to show partiality is breaking the law of love. You can't love in one area, and not in all. Showing partiality may seem minor and not all the way to hate, but to God you are breaking God's eternal law of love.

Actually YES it is. Here let me type out the scripture for you and highlight what the scriptures are talking about maybe you missed it.

JAMES 2:8-11.
[8], If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well:

NOTE: Here JAMES is talking about the ROYAL LAW or the 2nd GREAT COMMANDMENT of LOVE your Neighbore as yourself we do well. This is from the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures of LEVITICUS 19:18. PAUL says that to LOVE your neighbor as yourself sums up all the 10 Commandments that are our duty of LOVE to our fellow man

ROMANS 13:9
[8], Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law.
[9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, IT IS SUMMED UP IN THE SAYING, NAMELY, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
[10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Continuing LOVE shows no patiality in fulfilling God's LAW...

[9], But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convicted of the law as transgressors.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law.
[12], So speak, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

JAMES show the same thinking as PAUL in ROMANS 13:8-10. LOVE is the FULFILLING of the law in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW Gods WORD.

Sorry 1stcenturylady, God's WORD disagrees with you.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That's good.
I am often accused of seeking a license to sin when I point out that we are not under the law. But that is not what I mean to say. The Apostle Paul was accused of the same thing, apparently, which he answered in Romans 6:15.

With sin comes a guilty conscience. I've never heard of anyone who was convicted of not keeping a seventh day Sabbath by their conscience. (unassisted) Only when they believed/received the law being put on them by a religious group. And probably part of a general sin guiltiness.

The scripture says *JAMES 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin. If someone does not know something is sin to him it is not sin and God does not hold them accountable until they know something is sin as it is written in *ACTS 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent. Just because someone does not know something is sin does not mean that it is not sin because they do not know it to be so. When God gives them a KNOWLEDGE of the truth then it becomes sin.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This is where you misrepresent someone's view and then attack your own misrepresentation. We need not go further as you are affirming the same view that I anticipated in my first comment. Galatians 3 is for anyone who believes A: We are saved by works, or B: We are saved by grace and perfected by "KEEPING ALL OF GOD'S COMMANDMENTS."

There are many better scriptures for refuting A above but none better for refuting B.

When we do systematics (systematic theology), we look at all the data from scripture regarding that topic. On the role of works in the Christian's life there are four views;

1. Works will determine rewards but not salvation
   
2. Works will provide evidence that one actually has been saved
3. Works will provide the criterion by which Christ will determine eternal destiny of his people
4. Works will merit eternal life: At the final judgment, good works will be rewarded with eternal salvation. However, these good works will be meritorious not apart from Christ but precisely because of the union of the believer with him.

You hold to the last view.

I hold the first view.

In order to argue for a view one needs to:

1. Collect all passages that are related to the topic
2. Properly exegete (Not eisegete) passages
3. Examine the four inferences above or others
4. Determine which inference seems to explain the data most broadly and deeply.

Scholars disagree.

That said you are not collecting all the passages.
You are not exegeting in context.
Your view doesn't explain the passages from Paul that demonstrate that by works no flesh will be justified.
You quote Hebrew without recognizing the context of Hebrews is to show the reader the extreme, incomparable nature of Christ's high-priestly eternal King/Priest over that of keeping all of God's commandments.

Four Views on the Role of Works at the Final Judgment (Counterpoints: Bible and Theology)Paperback – July 13, 2013

https://www.amazon.com/Viws-Works-Final-Judgment-Counterpoints/dp/0310490332

Michael P. Barber holds your view and defends it against other views. Good luck.

Hello friend, section 4 is not my view at all. If is it not my view then why claim that it is? Could you have a misunderstanding in regards to what my view is? Why do you not ask me what my view is rather then claim you know what my view is and then spread around misrepresentation of it? Is this bearing false witness on your behalf?

 

[klutedavid]

I will correct your opening post.

WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?

Who are the people who are recognized as the people, these people who gather to celebrate the risen Christ. This gathering of believers comprise the true church.

Firstly I believe God has his people in EVERY CHURCH as long as they are living up to all the KNOWLEDGE God has revealed to them through his WORD.

The fundamental doctrine states, anyone who believes in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, are in fact the followers of Jesus. That is the true 'knowledge', the revelation, that the scripture declares.

JOHN 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The one shepherd is Jesus, the fold are those that believe in Jesus.

WHO IS GOD'S CHURCH?

IS GOD'S CHURCH A BUILDING or a CHURCH ORGANISATION?

Neither, the true gathering of those that follow Jesus, cannot be identified by a church name or building.

Before we look at who God's WORD says is God's true Church let's start off by looking at the GREEK meaning of the word Church which is ἐκκλησία which means a calling out or meeting.

The meaning of 'called out', means called out of the world. These people are no longer earthly folk, Jesus was from above, after all. Hence, the followers of Jesus belong to the kingdom above.

Fix your mind on the heavenly kingdom and not on this world. We belong to a kingdom that is invisible, we are the body of Christ.

This links in very nicely with

MATTHEW 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The people gather in the name of JESUS, these people believe in Jesus. They are the elect, reconciled, forgiven, and not condemned.

A Church therefore is the people the BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. They are the called out and Jesus is in the midst of them.

Jesus is the subject of the scripture, the followers of Jesus are called Christians. The word, 'Christians', means those that believe in Jesus. To follow Jesus means to walk as Jesus walked. But above all, the gathering is primarily those that believe in Jesus.

WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?


1 JOHN 2:3-4
3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep <ALL> his commandments. 4, He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The scripture does not say, 'all', the scripture has been altered to advertise an earthly institution.

REVELATION 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Jesus gave us commandments, for example; love others as I have loved you. This is a new commandment.

REVELATION 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

His commandments are the commands that Jesus gave us to obey.

Notice God's people keep ALL of God's Commandments through FAITH in Christ?

Here we see again an addition to the scripture.

The word, 'all', does not occur and should be ignored. We cannot add or subtract from the scripture.

God's saints keep ALL THE COMMANDMENTS of God. It is these people that are a remnant that the devil is making war with. They are called God's saints and these are the ones that have right to the tree of life.

Do not add or subtract from the scripture.

Once again, 'ALL', is not in the text, please ignore that.

How many Church's do you see keeping all of God's Commandments?

No churches keep, 'ALL', of the commandments because the scripture does not say that.

What are your thoughts?

I have no thought other than your post was deeply erroneous.

 

[Saint Steven]

The scripture says *JAMES 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin. If someone does not know something is sin to him it is not sin and God does not hold them accountable until they know something is sin as it is written in *ACTS 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent. Just because someone does not know something is sin does not mean that it is not sin because they do not know it to be so. When God gives them a KNOWLEDGE of the truth then it becomes sin.

Make up your mind.

First you say, "If someone does not know something is sin to him it is not sin and God does not hold them accountable..."
Then you say, "Just because someone does not know something is sin does not mean that it is not sin..."
Then you say, "When God gives them a KNOWLEDGE of the truth then it becomes sin."
Which is it?

Sin is sin. It has nothing to do with what we know.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Make up your mind.

First you say, "If someone does not know something is sin to him it is not sin and God does not hold them accountable..."
Then you say, "Just because someone does not know something is sin does not mean that it is not sin..."
Then you say, "When God gives them a KNOWLEDGE of the truth then it becomes sin."
Which is it?

Sin is sin. It has nothing to do with what we know.

There is no making up my mind. I have always been consistant with what I have posted here Steven and there is nothing inconsistant with what I have posted.

 

[klutedavid]

Really Dave? So in your view you can continue in a life of known unrepentant sin and still make it to heaven? Hmm some are going to be dissappointed come jugment day. *MATTHEW 7:13-23. The saved are saved as long as they repent of their sins. They are not in a saved state before God while continuing in known unrepentant sin *HEBREWS 10:26-27

You are a sinner, no different from anyone else for that matter. You can repent, but that will not stop you from sinning, again and again, over and over. No matter how much you repeat that mantra, repent from sin, you will continually sin.

Jesus removed the condemnation of sin, there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. You have reversed that, for you LGW, there has always been condemnation for sin.

So why do you keep sinning?

Have you not repented?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I will correct your opening post.
Who are the people who are recognized as the people, these people who gather to celebrate the risen Christ. This gathering of believers comprise the true church.

The fundamental doctrine states, anyone who believes in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, are in fact the followers of Jesus. That is the true 'knowledge', the revelation, that the scripture declares.

The one shepherd is Jesus, the fold are those that believe in Jesus.

Neither, the true gathering of those that follow Jesus, cannot be identified by a church name or building.

The meaning of 'called out', means called out of the world. These people are no longer earthly folk, Jesus was from above, after all. Hence, the followers of Jesus belong to the kingdom above.

Fix your mind on the heavenly kingdom and not on this world. We belong to a kingdom that is invisible, we are the body of Christ.

The people gather in the name of JESUS, these people believe in Jesus. They are the elect, reconciled, forgiven, and not condemned.

Jesus is the subject of the scripture, the followers of Jesus are called Christians. The word, 'Christians', means those that believe in Jesus. To follow Jesus means to walk as Jesus walked. But above all, the gathering is primarily those that believe in Jesus.

The scripture does not say, 'all', the scripture has been altered to advertise an earthly institution.

Jesus gave us commandments, for example; love others as I have loved you. This is a new commandment.

His commandments are the commands that Jesus gave us to obey.

Here we see again an addition to the scripture.

The word, 'all', does not occur and should be ignored. We cannot add or subtract from the scripture.

Do not add or subtract from the scripture.

Once again, 'ALL', is not in the text, please ignore that.

No churches keep, 'ALL', of the commandments because the scripture does not say that.

I have no thought other than your post was deeply erroneous.

Hmm all you have added David is your own words over God's WORD. Not sure why you think you have corrected anything.

 

[Saint Steven]

There is no making up my mind. I have always been consistant with what I have poster here Steven and there is nothing inconsistant with what I have posted.

Really? Consistent. Like this?

Sin is a transgression of the law, I mean the Ten Commandments, unless you don't know it is a sin, then it isn't a sin to you, but it is still a sin, but not until God gives you knowledge that it is a sin, then it is not sin, but it is really. Does that make sense? (nope)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Make up your mind.

First you say, "If someone does not know something is sin to him it is not sin and God does not hold them accountable..."
Then you say, "Just because someone does not know something is sin does not mean that it is not sin..."
Then you say, "When God gives them a KNOWLEDGE of the truth then it becomes sin."
Which is it?

Sin is sin. It has nothing to do with what we know.

 

[klutedavid]

Who said that it says law of condemnation? Your only condemned by it if you break it. But yep James is referring to the 10 Commandments all right. *JAMES 2:9-11

No, James said, 'the whole law'. How do you see the ten commandments, when James says the whole law?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You are a sinner, no different from anyone else for that matter. You can repent, but that will not stop you from sinning, again and again, over and over. No matter how much you repeat that mantra, repentant from sin, you will continually sin.

Jesus removed the condemnation of sin, there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. You have reversed that, for you LGW, there has always been condemnation for sin.

So why do you keep sinning?

Have you not repented?

All I can do without him is sin for I am a sinner. Who am I that he should love me? I love him because he loves me but now I walk by faith in him that loves me and abide in him and he in me. His commands are his promises to me so I can follow him and walk in his ways. The victory that overcomes the world is only found in him and he is the Word that creates all things and works in those who believe. Those that do not believe are still in their sins and do not know him. There is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

 

[klutedavid]

Hmm all you have added David is your own words over God's WORD. Not sure why you think you have corrected anything.

You said, 'ALL', of the commandments. The scripture never says, 'all of the commandments'!

Now I adjure you in the name of Jesus, to admit that you added to the scripture.

 

[klutedavid]

All I can do without him is sin for I am a sinner. Who am I that he should love me? I love him because he loves me but now I walk by faith in him that loves me and abide in him and he in me. His commands are his promises to me so I can follow him and walk in his ways. The victory that overcomes the world is only found in him and he is the Word that creates all things and works in those who believe. Those that do not believe are still in their sins and do not know him. There is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

You started on the right foot but drifted away.

All I can do without him is sin for I am a sinner

Exactly, a law breaking sinner.

Where is your repentance?

Either you repented or you have not repented, it is that simple.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Really? Consistent. Like this?

Sin is a transgression of the law, I mean the Ten Commandments, unless you don't know it is a sin, then it isn't a sin to you, but it is still a sin, but not until God gives you knowledge that it is a sin, then it is not sin, but it is really. Does that make sense? (nope)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Make up your mind.

First you say, "If someone does not know something is sin to him it is not sin and God does not hold them accountable..."
Then you say, "Just because someone does not know something is sin does not mean that it is not sin..."
Then you say, "When God gives them a KNOWLEDGE of the truth then it becomes sin."
Which is it?

Sin is sin. It has nothing to do with what we know.

If you feel the need to make up things Steve I will leave that between you and God as it is God's WORD not mine. If you cannot understand it maybe you can pray about it. It is very clear to me and I do not have any problems with it. Misrepresenting the views of others is bearing false witness.

JAMES 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.

ACTS 17:30-31
[30], And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:
[31], Because he has appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; and of this he has given assurance unto all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.

There is a growing in the KNOWLEDGE of God's WORD. When we are first Christians we do not know everything right away. As we continue in God's WORD we are his disciples and we learn everyday to be more and more like Jesus. That means putting away sin as it is revealed to us thorugh God's WORD.

2 PETER 3:18 [18], But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews who believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Thinking you know everything right away as soon as you first become a babe in Christ is not biblical.

 

[klutedavid]

Who said that it says law of condemnation? Your only condemned by it if you break it. But yep James is referring to the 10 Commandments all right. *JAMES 2:9-11

If you break one law, then you have broken all of the law. There is no degree of sin, sin is sin. Why do you distort the scripture?

James says, 'the whole law', James never says the ten commandments.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You said, 'ALL', of the commandments. The scripture never says, 'all of the commandments'!

Now I adjure you in the name of Jesus, to admit that you added to the scripture.

Now David, Are you saying that God's WORD in 1 JOHN 2:3-4 really only means some of God's Commandments when elsewhere in JAMES 2:8-11 makes it very clear that if we break one of God's commandments we stand guilty before God or breaking ALL of them?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You started on the right foot but drifted away.

Exactly, a law breaking sinner.

Where is your repentance?

Either you repented or you have not repented, it is that simple.

If our eyes are not open we cannot see the Garden of Eden or the paradise of God. Sin closes our eyes and makes us blind but seeking Jesus can open the blind eyes to see and the deaf to hear. Truly, truly, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. I say unto you, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind blows where it wants, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell where it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

Do you know the scriptures David?

 

[Saint Steven]

If you feel the need to make up things Steve I will leave that between you and God as it is God's WORD not mine. If you cannot understand it maybe you can pray about it. It is very clear to me and I do not have any problems with it. Misrepresenting the views of others is bearing false witness.

JAMES 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.

ACTS 17:30-31
[30], And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:
[31], Because he has appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; and of this he has given assurance unto all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.

There is a growing in the KNOWLEDGE of God's WORD. When we are first Christians we do not know everything right away. As we continue in God's WORD we are his disciples and we learn everyday to be more and more like Jesus. That means putting away sin as it is revealed to us thorugh God's WORD.

2 PETER 3:18 [18], But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews who believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Thinking you know everything right away as soon as you first become a babe in Christ is not biblical.

Making things up?
I'm not the one claiming that sin isn't sin unless you know it is sin.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Making things up?
I'm not the one claiming that sin isn't sin unless you know it is sin.

Sin is sin regardless if you know it to be sin or not. The scriptures provided in JAMES 4:17 and ACTS 17:30-31 show that you are held accountable to sin when you receive a KNOWLEDGE that sin is sin. At this time God expects you to repent of it. These are God's WORD not mine. It is not hard to understand. What is your problem? Do you think God holds new Christians accountable to sin that they may not know is sin before he gives them a knowledge of it?