Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have no problems with this....will save me a lot of money. All the family getting this year is frankincense and myrrh.....If they ask why...I'll direct them to this thread and ask them "why should you get more than the Lord?"

Thanks

Now that is biblical
Just throw in a little gold and fine wine with that........

Matthew 2:11
and having come to the house, they found the Child with Mary His mother, and having fallen down they bowed to Him,
and having opened their treasures, they presented to Him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh,

Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
6 “These which ye are beholding.
Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>

Revelation 18:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and incense, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

1 Chronocles 9:29
Some of them also were appointed to oversee the vessels, and all the instruments of the Sanctuary, and the fine flour, and the wine, and the oil, and the frankincense, and the spices.

 

[Der Alte]

1. The name is not wrong; I left out the Deis Natalis because I figured it was understood we were talking about birthdays in general. The full name is Deis Natalis Solis Invicti.
You are describing a Latin grammar error between the nominative, and genitive case - of which I did make a mistake. But, not on the word: the root word is the same, and conjugated on my part poorly - at worst.
2. Deis Natalis Solis Invicti is celebrated on December 25 - specifically during the astronomical event in which the sun shows an increase in inclination. You are thinking of the preparation before the actual celebration of the birth of the sun - December 21 - when the sun is at its alleged lowest inclination. It "dies" for three days, and then rises again on the 25th. December 21st was the beginning of the Death and (Re)Birth of the Unconquered Sun; December 25th was the celebration of the actual (re)birth.
I don't know who those people are, but I had access to both virtual and edifice libraries in my research. We were taught about Roman history, Greco-Roman Mythology, and a good amount of world history from 2500 BC onward in my high school, and then in University I had even more resources and opportunity to do my own academic research. All of it is "pagan," but more importantly all of it is old, and regurgitated rituals based on antediluvian and early Babylonian mystery religions. You may think it is nonsense, but 1000s of years of history beg to differ. Or, if that is how you want to rationalize what you believe, then that is your prerogative.
You can go to the local Library, or Library of Congress, and I can give you the ISBN numbers of real academic literature that would make the same academic conclusions that I am regurgitation. This is nothing new, especially if you know history, or even mythology.

Let us suppose for the sake of discussion that December 25 was held to be sacred by some group or other in the dim dark distant past. Now all you have to do is produce credible, verifiable, historical evidence that Christians anywhere chose December 25 to celebrate the birth of Jesus because supposedly the birth of the sun or some other pagan practice occurred on that day?
.....And for your info. I don't rationalize anything I am waiting for credible evidence. And I haven't seen any and strongly doubt that I ever will.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You still haven't answered this one, Jason.

Do you believe greed and materialism are sins?

Behold, the fruits of Christmas:

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let us suppose for the sake of discussion that December 25 was held to be sacred by some group or other in the dim dark distant past. Now all you have to do is produce credible, verifiable, historical evidence that Christians anywhere chose December 25 to celebrate the birth of Jesus because supposedly the birth of the sun or some other pagan practice occurred on that day?
.....And for your info. I don't rationalize anything I am waiting for credible evidence. And I haven't seen any and strongly doubt that I ever will.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Mithraism A pagan religion consisting mainly of the cult of the ancient Indo-Iranian Sun-god Mithra. It entered Europe from Asia Minor after Alexander’s conquest, spread rapidly over the whole Roman Empire at the beginning of our era, reached its zenith during the third century, and vanished under the repressive regulations of Theodosius at the end of the fourth century…Helios Mithras is one god…Sunday was kept holy in honour of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season (Arendzen J. Mithraism. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume X. Nihil Obstat, October 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1911).

 

[Kerensa]

Do you believe greed and materialism are sins?

Yes, I do. That's why I don't indulge in crazy "Black Friday" shopping (to use an Americanism that's crept over this side of the Atlantic). I don't spend huge amounts of money on gifts. I just give something special to my closest family members and friends and that's about it. I also don't indulge in huge amounts of food over Christmas and I keep the decorations simple. Same with most other Christians I know. For us, it's a time to rejoice in God's great gift to all humanity that, yes, culminated in the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension. Just because Christmas doesn't focus on the ultimate works of Christ doesn't mean that anyone who loves him will forget why he came. It also doesn't in any way keep us from devoting all the rest of the days of the year to loving and serving him, as we should.

What non-believers choose to do with Christmas is up to them. It doesn't make Christmas itself evil or wrong. Christmas is what we choose to make of it. Once again, as others have pointed out, you are simply taking your disgust at certain un-Christly elements of Christmas and projecting these as if that was ALL that Christmas means and as if everyone who celebrates Christmas, in any way at all, is equally guilty of celebrating materialism and paganism. That's another total non sequitur.

You still haven't actually answered my question, though: In what way is celebrating Christmas comparable to murder? (I'm pushing that not because I believe there is a logical answer, but to expose the basic flaws in your reasoning, if you hadn't picked that up, by the way. )

 

[Kerensa]

And incidentally, why does it actually matter if Christmas replaced or co-opted a pagan festival? What does it matter if certain symbols were re-purposed from pre-Christian customs? Human beings do that. What matters is what one is truly celebrating. Which, when it comes to each individual's heart, is something only God can truly see and judge.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You still haven't answered this one, Jason.

Christmas is about the exchange of gifts.
Jesus did not really seem to favor this kind of giving alone.

32 "For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful."
(Luke 6:32-35).

Jesus said we have to help the poor instead, because by doing so, it is like we doing it unto Him. If we do not help the poor in this life, things will not go well for us.

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:41-46).

Christmas is not a holiday that teaches proper giving; Which is helping and giving to those who are truly in need instead of making one's own family more richer. While occasional gifts of affections are fine, the sheer greed and materialism behind Christmas is mind boggling.

 

[Not David]

Do you believe greed and materialism are sins?

Behold, the fruits of Christmas:

Do you celebrate birthdays?

 

[Not David]

Where have I written that we should only depend on scripture alone? Scripture however trumps the words of men.

ROMANS 3:4 4, God forbid: yes, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged.

MATTHEW 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

ACTS 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

MATTHEW 15:3-9
[3], But he answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatever you might be profited by me;
[6], And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[8], This people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Yep looks like the Word of God trumps the words of men.

I would say anything of a church that was founded 1700 years after Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, I do. That's why I don't indulge in crazy "Black Friday" shopping (to use an Americanism that's crept over this side of the Atlantic). I don't spend huge amounts of money on gifts. I just give something special to my closest family members and friends and that's about it. I also don't indulge in huge amounts of food over Christmas and I keep the decorations simple. Same with most other Christians I know. For us, it's a time to rejoice in God's great gift to all humanity that, yes, culminated in the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension. Just because Christmas doesn't focus on the ultimate works of Christ doesn't mean that anyone who loves him will forget why he came. It also doesn't in any way keep us from devoting all the rest of the days of the year to loving and serving him, as we should.

What non-believers choose to do with Christmas is up to them. It doesn't make Christmas itself evil or wrong. Christmas is what we choose to make of it. Once again, as others have pointed out, you are simply taking your disgust at certain un-Christly elements of Christmas and projecting these as if that was ALL that Christmas means and as if everyone who celebrates Christmas, in any way at all, is equally guilty of celebrating materialism and paganism. That's another total non sequitur.

You still haven't actually answered my question, though: In what way is celebrating Christmas comparable to murder? (I'm pushing that not because I believe there is a logical answer, but to expose the basic flaws in your reasoning, if you hadn't picked that up, by the way. )

Why did the rich man go to hell and Lazarus go to Abraham's bosom?

 

[Not David]

Christmas is about the exchange of gifts.
Jesus did not really seem to favor this kind of giving alone.

32 "For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful."
(Luke 6:32-35).

Jesus said we have to help the poor instead, because by doing so, it is like we doing it unto Him. If we do not help the poor in this life, things will not go well for us.

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:41-46).

Christmas is not a holiday that teaches proper giving; Which is helping and giving to those who are truly in need instead of making one's own family more richer. While occasional gifts of affections are fine, the sheer greed and materialism behind Christmas is mind boggling.

Do you give gifts to your friends and relatives?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And incidentally, why does it actually matter if Christmas replaced or co-opted a pagan festival? What does it matter if certain symbols were re-purposed from pre-Christian customs? Human beings do that. What matters is what one is truly celebrating. Which, when it comes to each individual's heart, is something only God can truly see and judge.

What fellowship does light have with darkness?
A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

 

[Kerensa]

Christmas is not a holiday that teaches proper giving; Which is helping and giving to those who are truly in need instead of making one's own family more richer. While occasional gifts of affections are fine, the sheer greed and materialism behind Christmas is mind boggling.

How do you know that all the people who celebrate Christmas aren't also giving to charitable causes or doing other things to help those who are truly in need — whether at Christmas or at other times of the year? What exactly gives you the right to assume that celebrating Christmas automatically equals greed and materialism?

I deplore the materialistic aspects of Christmas, as do probably most followers of Christ. But that doesn't mean throwing out Christmas itself. I'd rather do whatever I can to show that there IS something more to "the festive season".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you give gifts to your friends and relatives?

Occasional gifts on occasion is fine, but I try to keep them small and simple and something that I know that they will actually need or use.

The point here is that is not the same thing as partaking in a holiday that focuses heavily on greed and materialism. It's not the same as getting gifts for your entire family and other loved ones all at one that can sometimes put a person into financial debt, and or lead people to go to Black Friday deals and get into a fight, etc. Then there is parents telling their kids lies about Santa, which can then lead them to think Satan (I mean Santa), or St. Nicholas (*Cough* Nicolaitans - Revelation 2:6), so that when the child grows up, they will think Jesus is also a lie, too.

Thanks a lot Christmas (Christ mass, i.e. the mass of Christ).

 

[fat wee robin]

The birthdate of Jesus Christ revealed according to Scripture:

Hint: It's not December 25th!

Neither is the Internet , so why don't you give up your computer ,and your car ,and your TV, radio , and music tapes, as since they are not in YOUR bible ,and so there fore they must be of the devil . Your fridge too , aeroplanes ,electricity ,all heating except wood . ad infinitum

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How do you know that all the people who celebrate Christmas aren't also giving to charitable causes or doing other things to help those who are truly in need — whether at Christmas or at other times of the year? What exactly gives you the right to assume that celebrating Christmas automatically equals greed and materialism?

I deplore the materialistic aspects of Christmas, as do probably most followers of Christ. But that doesn't mean throwing out Christmas itself. I'd rather do whatever I can to show that there IS something more to "the festive season".

Jesus says a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Neither is the Internet , so why don't you give up your computer ,and your car ,and your TV, radio , and music tapes, as since they are not in YOUR bible ,and so there fore they must be of the devil . Your fridge too , aeroplanes ,electricity ,all heating except wood . ad infinitum

Sounds like the Jewish Sabbath..........

 

[AnnaDeborah]

Do you believe greed and materialism are sins?

Behold, the fruits of Christmas:

We have seen scenes like this every time there is a huge discount sale or an item that people are particularly keen to get hold of which is in short supply. It's not connected with Christmas at all - bring the latest gadget out in August and you will have similar scenes. Chop 50% off the price of electricals in February - ditto. This isn't about Christmas, it's about materialism and greed.

32 "For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

This can't be used to show that we can't give good things to those we love. If it did, it would be telling us NOT to love those who love us, which would be ridiculous. No, what it is saying is that our love, kindness and generosity should not only be for those who can give us a return but also for those who cannot.

Your concerns about Christmas seem to be based on a set view of what Christmas is like. So you believe it's wrong because people overspend. Because people give to those who give back. Because churches have services that don't mention the resurrection or that have a nativity with three kings coming to a stable. Because people go into debt. Or overeat. Or... But none of those things are a picture of the Christmas that I know.

I've noticed that when people say their Christmas is not like that, you don't respond to their posts. Or if you do, you just rehash the things that are wrong about Christmas which they have already said are not part of their Christmas. You asked a while back if we drew closer to God over Christmas, spend time praying and worshipping Him. I said that in my family, this is the best bit. I didn't have any kind of response. Was that because our family's Christmas doesn't fit with your preconceived notions of Christmas?

 

[mama2one]

we told our child Santa is not real and something some parents do for fun
so when she started school, we had to tell her not to say anything since some families choose to do that

we also told our families that we were not doing Santa
everyone thought we were "spoiling" the fun for our child and couldn't understand it

and still a couple people ignored us and asked our child if we left carrots for the reindeer which confused our child and I wanted to bop them on the head

 

[fat wee robin]

This is exactly what I was talking about in another recent thread. It's one thing to say "I choose not to celebrate Christmas, and here's why, but I understand why most other Christians do and I respect everyone's right to make their own choice in these matters." It's another thing to repeatedly present a whole string of arguments (all of them highly questionable, as others here have shown again and again) about why "all Christians SHOULD NOT celebrate Christmas". That's reducing Christianity to sheer legalism while blatantly setting oneself up as superior to all these misguided and deluded souls who believe Christmas is something good and praiseworthy. It's not likely to change anyone's mind and it's certainly not likely to persuade non-believers that Christianity is worth looking into — more like the opposite.

Just speaking for myself, when I was a child I absolutely loved Christmas — yes, for all the excitement and the presents and all that, but even though my family were (and are) totally non-religious, I always somehow felt most drawn to the Nativity scene and the story of this very special baby. As a teenager I lost the very simple faith I once had and became an agnostic and was really quite cynical about Christmas, which did then feel like an empty, meaningless, purely materialistic drag. At the age of 20 I became a Christian and every Christmas since then has been alive with meaning like never before. Do you really think I, or the couple of billion other Christians to whom it means so much, will ever be persuaded that this special time is ungodly and unbiblical and pagan and satanic and "real" Christians should condemn it instead of celebrating it? I don't think so.

Lovely !