Miracles

FatalHeart

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I will first start another one of these little discussion (which, so far, seems to just be me talking to myself, but that's ok) with the fact my friend used to be a part of the occult. He would do magic, real magic, around games of skill with a small group of people in his hometown that used to convene with demons and demonic activity. He was endowed with what he had at first assumed was the discernment of spirits, which, as he thought would allow him to see demons. He used to observe demonic activity like it was air, however, it was the years with these magic users that caused his gift to flourish and he would have multiple conversations with demons who would promise him things. He would astral project and create meeting spaces in his mind when he slept that he would summon some of his friends to and they'd talk.

I remember one specific time after he had left the cult that we "found" a girl in the park who talked to us and brought us down a winding path and the air became violent until it was surrounding us from all sides. It turns out, she was a psychic with a pretty strong history recruiting for these same people, telling stories of demonic activity to get people to believe and follow her, the result, of course, being that the demon no longer showed up to the park anymore and she went home stripped for a time of her visions. ;)

But I digress. The point of all this is that not all spiritual activity is of the divine and not everything that happens, every voice, every vision, every power, every miracles, supports the plan of God, furthers the message of Jesus, or does good in your life. When getting involved with the spiritual realm it is important to be able to discern between the demonic and the Holy Spirit and only a good time spent with the Lord and in His Bible is sufficient to allow you to discern when a preacher isn't necessarily preaching or doing things from God.

I start this way because I would like to discuss something that has been missing from most people's evangelism, but is very present and consistently preached throughout scripture, and that is the involvement of, not just the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but the finger of God to verify a speaker is from Christ. Now, it is true that in latter times some people will follow lying spirits, and that there will be false signs and wonders, but this is the result of sin and hardened hearts of hypocritical liars, rather than the theology that God will move for His speakers. Many of you, in fact, when preaching about God, have not necessarily had Him move as much as could be possible strictly because of a lack of faith or knowledge of or rightfulness to your words, but not every instance of sharing the gospel will come with an overt miracle, as God delights in those who believe without the need to "see." However, it is also imperative that a difference is made between those that preach a different gospel and those that are approved by God, and so, God also uses miracles still to do that. I am aware it says, "Jews seek for a sign," and "A wicked generation asks for a sign," but I read it in the premise that although they already had the proof they needed, as, the fact is, Jesus was doing many miracles already, they still asked for more and more from God to confirm things because they were unwilling.

So, what has your experience been (not, what do you believe about them)? (Although, if you have had experiences, I would like to know your thoughts on it in where you think God is leading you from it.)
 

Tolworth John

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Ever read what Jesus said to Thomas when he finaly proclaimed his belief in the risen Jesus.
Don't you think that this applies to all those Christians through the 2 thousands years since Jesus's time who have believed on nothing more than the word of God, the bible.

Yes God has used the Spirit to do dramatic and powerful acts/signs. That is at his discresion, we don't dictate that God will act.
 
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FatalHeart

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Ever read what Jesus said to Thomas when he finaly proclaimed his belief in the risen Jesus.
Don't you think that this applies to all those Christians through the 2 thousands years since Jesus's time who have believed on nothing more than the word of God, the bible.

Yes God has used the Spirit to do dramatic and powerful acts/signs. That is at his discresion, we don't dictate that God will act.

He isn't really someone who does exactly what we ask often, but Paul himself emphasized the display of the Spirit's power so that people's faith would be based on God's power rather than human arguments.
 
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Tolworth John

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He isn't really someone who does exactly what we ask often, but Paul himself emphasized the display of the Spirit's power so that people's faith would be based on God's power rather than human arguments.

And where was the display of Gods power from the time of the apostles deaths to date?
 
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FatalHeart

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And where was the display of Gods power from the time of the apostles deaths to date?

Are you trying to imply that scriptures, being written by the Apostles, no longer supports God's movement in the world because there isn't anything written about it from an apostle after their death?
 
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Tolworth John

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Are you trying to imply that scriptures, being written by the Apostles, no longer supports God's movement in the world because there isn't anything written about it from an apostle after their death?

No I am challenging your claim that ods poer has been displayed through history.
For most of Chriistian history there have been very few incidents of God working miracles.
 
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FatalHeart

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No I am challenging your claim that ods poer has been displayed through history.
For most of Chriistian history there have been very few incidents of God working miracles.

I know. That's the problem. My experiences say otherwise. That's why I asked what others had experienced and what they've learned. God has not shown me that He singles someone out. I am not special. He shows no favoritism, yet the experiences say, and what I have been learning from them, that it should be happening more often, in more cases, because He has been presenting Himself quite willingly as I evangelize and ask Him to move in power. I am coming to the conclusion that we either have a majority of fake people or an absence of a God affirming church.
 
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Tolworth John

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I know. That's the problem. My experiences say otherwise. That's why I asked what others had experienced and what they've learned. God has not shown me that He singles someone out. I am not special. He shows no favoritism, yet the experiences say, and what I have been learning from them, that it should be happening more often, in more cases, because He has been presenting Himself quite willingly as I evangelize and ask Him to move in power. I am coming to the conclusion that we either have a majority of fake people or an absence of a God affirming church.

God is still God even if you or I never see the miraculus.

Read what Jesus said to Thomas.
 
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FatalHeart

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God is still God even if you or I never see the miraculus.

Read what Jesus said to Thomas.

I am aware of the rebuke. I mentioned it in my OP. But I also would not see it as wise to take that one instance and make it mean that Paul's ministry, or miracles that happened for the church were a result of a doubtful reluctance of what was known. The idea that God intervening in our lives is somehow less of what God has for us is quite a huge leap from what I believe the story about Tom is conveying.
 
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Tolworth John

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I am aware of the rebuke. I mentioned it in my OP. But I also would not see it as wise to take that one instance and make it mean that Paul's ministry, or miracles that happened for the church were a result of a doubtful reluctance of what was known. The idea that God intervening in our lives is somehow less of what God has for us is quite a huge leap from what I believe the story about Tom is conveying.

Nothing I've said implies that God doesn't intervien in our lives.
Christians are all saved because God acted, but again most Christian are not aware of his action andmost do not see God working supernateraly in their lives or the lives of others.
It doesn't mean God isn't acting.

Some Christians do report God working marvelously, even supernaturally. That we might not see it shouldnot lessen our faith.
 
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I will first start another one of these little discussion (which, so far, seems to just be me talking to myself, but that's ok) with the fact my friend used to be a part of the occult. He would do magic, real magic, around games of skill with a small group of people in his hometown that used to convene with demons and demonic activity. He was endowed with what he had at first assumed was the discernment of spirits, which, as he thought would allow him to see demons. He used to observe demonic activity like it was air, however, it was the years with these magic users that caused his gift to flourish and he would have multiple conversations with demons who would promise him things. He would astral project and create meeting spaces in his mind when he slept that he would summon some of his friends to and they'd talk.

I remember one specific time after he had left the cult that we "found" a girl in the park who talked to us and brought us down a winding path and the air became violent until it was surrounding us from all sides. It turns out, she was a psychic with a pretty strong history recruiting for these same people, telling stories of demonic activity to get people to believe and follow her, the result, of course, being that the demon no longer showed up to the park anymore and she went home stripped for a time of her visions. ;)

But I digress. The point of all this is that not all spiritual activity is of the divine and not everything that happens, every voice, every vision, every power, every miracles, supports the plan of God, furthers the message of Jesus, or does good in your life. When getting involved with the spiritual realm it is important to be able to discern between the demonic and the Holy Spirit and only a good time spent with the Lord and in His Bible is sufficient to allow you to discern when a preacher isn't necessarily preaching or doing things from God.

I start this way because I would like to discuss something that has been missing from most people's evangelism, but is very present and consistently preached throughout scripture, and that is the involvement of, not just the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but the finger of God to verify a speaker is from Christ. Now, it is true that in latter times some people will follow lying spirits, and that there will be false signs and wonders, but this is the result of sin and hardened hearts of hypocritical liars, rather than the theology that God will move for His speakers. Many of you, in fact, when preaching about God, have not necessarily had Him move as much as could be possible strictly because of a lack of faith or knowledge of or rightfulness to your words, but not every instance of sharing the gospel will come with an overt miracle, as God delights in those who believe without the need to "see." However, it is also imperative that a difference is made between those that preach a different gospel and those that are approved by God, and so, God also uses miracles still to do that. I am aware it says, "Jews seek for a sign," and "A wicked generation asks for a sign," but I read it in the premise that although they already had the proof they needed, as, the fact is, Jesus was doing many miracles already, they still asked for more and more from God to confirm things because they were unwilling.

So, what has your experience been (not, what do you believe about them)? (Although, if you have had experiences, I would like to know your thoughts on it in where you think God is leading you from it.)
Scripture supports the assertions about the spirit that you make in your original post (except for individuals' experiences). If the Word of Scripture considers them true, then that's all we need to know that they are true. Regarding the miracles Jesus was doing (v. 11):

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. (John 14:12, 1995 NASB)

Also see Acts 2:17-20.

The lack of miraculous works is also explained:

Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household.” And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He wondered at their unbelief. ... (Mark 6:4-6a, 1995 NASB)

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4, 1984 NIV)

To the best of my knowledge, the U.S. and other industrialized countries are generally more blinded by unbelief that other parts of the world. We became wealthy enough that we were/are able to comfort ourselves without seeking God, and now have largely lost the knowledge of God (very unfortunately, Romans 1:28). In some other parts of the world, that is not the case (whose beliefs are often dismissed because their level of technology is poorer than ours [which is illogical]). A sign of deep darkness is when people do not want to listen to the gospel, or even talk about God anymore. Many people now have almost violent reactions at even the hint of anything that speaks of them being in the wrong or losing control over any areas of their lives. Fear abounds, which not surprisingly, is often said to be what is opposite of faith. (Implied in 1 John 4:18.)

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. (John 3:19-20, 1984 NIV)
 
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eleos1954

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I will first start another one of these little discussion (which, so far, seems to just be me talking to myself, but that's ok) with the fact my friend used to be a part of the occult. He would do magic, real magic, around games of skill with a small group of people in his hometown that used to convene with demons and demonic activity. He was endowed with what he had at first assumed was the discernment of spirits, which, as he thought would allow him to see demons. He used to observe demonic activity like it was air, however, it was the years with these magic users that caused his gift to flourish and he would have multiple conversations with demons who would promise him things. He would astral project and create meeting spaces in his mind when he slept that he would summon some of his friends to and they'd talk.

I remember one specific time after he had left the cult that we "found" a girl in the park who talked to us and brought us down a winding path and the air became violent until it was surrounding us from all sides. It turns out, she was a psychic with a pretty strong history recruiting for these same people, telling stories of demonic activity to get people to believe and follow her, the result, of course, being that the demon no longer showed up to the park anymore and she went home stripped for a time of her visions. ;)

But I digress. The point of all this is that not all spiritual activity is of the divine and not everything that happens, every voice, every vision, every power, every miracles, supports the plan of God, furthers the message of Jesus, or does good in your life. When getting involved with the spiritual realm it is important to be able to discern between the demonic and the Holy Spirit and only a good time spent with the Lord and in His Bible is sufficient to allow you to discern when a preacher isn't necessarily preaching or doing things from God.

I start this way because I would like to discuss something that has been missing from most people's evangelism, but is very present and consistently preached throughout scripture, and that is the involvement of, not just the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but the finger of God to verify a speaker is from Christ. Now, it is true that in latter times some people will follow lying spirits, and that there will be false signs and wonders, but this is the result of sin and hardened hearts of hypocritical liars, rather than the theology that God will move for His speakers. Many of you, in fact, when preaching about God, have not necessarily had Him move as much as could be possible strictly because of a lack of faith or knowledge of or rightfulness to your words, but not every instance of sharing the gospel will come with an overt miracle, as God delights in those who believe without the need to "see." However, it is also imperative that a difference is made between those that preach a different gospel and those that are approved by God, and so, God also uses miracles still to do that. I am aware it says, "Jews seek for a sign," and "A wicked generation asks for a sign," but I read it in the premise that although they already had the proof they needed, as, the fact is, Jesus was doing many miracles already, they still asked for more and more from God to confirm things because they were unwilling.

So, what has your experience been (not, what do you believe about them)? (Although, if you have had experiences, I would like to know your thoughts on it in where you think God is leading you from it.)

We are taught there are evil spirits and demons ... they are real and they are led by Satan.

Miracles? Jesus often (not always) after performing miracles said to others there don't tell anybody. Why?

2nd Corinthians 11

14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

To me, and this is of course not going to be very popular, because of other beliefs, and quite honestly I used to believe differently, until I did my own personal study of scripture on the following matter.

State of the Dead: All are in the grave and awaiting the return of Jesus and the 1st resurrection will happen, and all the saved dead and living at that time will be taken to heaven at that time.

The bible says the dead know nothing. Why is that important? Because of Satan and his minions ability to "appear" not only as scary demonic beings, but also as familiar spirits ie "friendly spirits" and also they can and do perform signs and wonders.

Example: So suppose there is an appearance of a loved one (that does occur by the way). Do you believe it? No. Why? Because the dead know nothing and the dead can not appear, so this appearance even tho in the form of a loved one ... you can not be deceived because it's not possible.

2 Thessalonians 2:9
This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles.

For every single truth ... Satan has a lie or "counterfeit truth". Counterfeit is something so very close to the original that it is almost totally undetectable. 99.999% of 100% if it's under 100% (Gods word is 100% truth) it still falls within the "deception range".

So Satan and his minions not only have the ability to manifest themselves by obvious wicked horrific things but also have the ability to distort the truth (from God) in such a deceiving subtle manner we need to be throughly grounded in the teachings from the Holy Bible.

So, this is one example to me of where God through His word led me away from this specific teaching and other associated mis-teachings.

The dead know nothing.

I do know many many others believe differently and I do not judge ... I am responsible for what I believe and others are responsible for theirs.

To those who disagree .... I agree to disagree.

May God guide all of us in the truth of His word.
 
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FatalHeart

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We are taught there are evil spirits and demons ... they are real and they are led by Satan.

Miracles? Jesus often (not always) after performing miracles said to others there don't tell anybody. Why?

2nd Corinthians 11

14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

To me, and this is of course not going to be very popular, because of other beliefs, and quite honestly I used to believe differently, until I did my own personal study of scripture on the following matter.

State of the Dead: All are in the grave and awaiting the return of Jesus and the 1st resurrection will happen, and all the saved dead and living at that time will be taken to heaven at that time.

The bible says the dead know nothing. Why is that important? Because of Satan and his minions ability to "appear" not only as scary demonic beings, but also as familiar spirits ie "friendly spirits" and also they can and do perform signs and wonders.

Example: So suppose there is an appearance of a loved one (that does occur by the way). Do you believe it? No. Why? Because the dead know nothing and the dead can not appear, so this appearance even tho in the form of a loved one ... you can not be deceived because it's not possible.

2 Thessalonians 2:9
This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles.

For every single truth ... Satan has a lie or "counterfeit truth". Counterfeit is something so very close to the original that it is almost totally undetectable. 99.999% of 100% if it's under 100% (Gods word is 100% truth) it still falls within the "deception range".

So Satan and his minions not only have the ability to manifest themselves by obvious wicked horrific things but also have the ability to distort the truth (from God) in such a deceiving subtle manner we need to be throughly grounded in the teachings from the Holy Bible.

So, this is one example to me of where God through His word led me away from this specific teaching and other associated mis-teachings.

The dead know nothing.

I do know many many others believe differently and I do not judge ... I am responsible for what I believe and others are responsible for theirs.

To those who disagree .... I agree to disagree.

May God guide all of us in the truth of His word.

I'm glad you emphasized what you did, but I wouldn't throw out all miracles because of it. Unless you want to account for Satan somehow being given power to raise people from the dead, which did happen for me one time. It says in Samuel that a witch was able to conjure up Samuel's spirit, and he spoke with Saul. It also talks about Jesus speaking to the souls in prison who had died before Noah. So there has to be a place were both Solomon and the rest of the Bible coincide on the dead. Of course, it's important to stay away from witchcraft, but I think by seeking God's hand to make the distinction between false testimonies and true ones, you'll figure out very quickly who actually teaches by the word of God. I think about the times in the Old Testament, with Elijah. In a "your god" vrs. "my God" scenario, Jesus always wins.
 
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eleos1954

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I'm glad you emphasized what you did, but I wouldn't throw out all miracles because of it. Unless you want to account for Satan somehow being given power to raise people from the dead, which did happen for me one time. It says in Samuel that a witch was able to conjure up Samuel's spirit, and he spoke with Saul. It also talks about Jesus speaking to the souls in prison who had died before Noah. So there has to be a place were both Solomon and the rest of the Bible coincide on the dead. Of course, it's important to stay away from witchcraft, but I think by seeking God's hand to make the distinction between false testimonies and true ones, you'll figure out very quickly who actually teaches by the word of God. I think about the times in the Old Testament, with Elijah. In a "your god" vrs. "my God" scenario, Jesus always wins.

Satan does not have the power to raise people from the dead. What he can and does do is perform illusions, thoughts etc. so strong that one might think it happened. So the total proof would be once rigor mortis sets in and obviously that didn't happen to you ... so you have not ever been dead. satan and demons can also completely partially or completely possess a person (while they are alive bodily)

It says in Samuel that a witch was able to conjure up Samuel's spirit, and he spoke with Saul. Not Samuels spirit, she conjured up "a" spirit (a demonic one) . God's word is clear.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11

There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,

Ecclesiastes 9

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

Reference to Noah ... saying that part of the work of Christ was to try to save people, even during the time of Noah, through the same Spirit He tried to save those people whose spirits were imprisoned by the devil (all except Noah and his family were totally destroyed because they refused God continually for the entire 120 years Noah preached to them. He’s not talking about how their ghosts were in hell, chained up, or anything.

This is it in a "nutshell"

1 Thessalonians 4

15 According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep (died earthly death).

All the dead are in the grave (saved and unsaved) The saved will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection, the unsaved in the 2nd resurrection.

God Bless.
 
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FatalHeart

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Satan does not have the power to raise people from the dead. What he can and does do is perform illusions, thoughts etc. so strong that one might think it happened. So the total proof would be once rigor mortis sets in and obviously that didn't happen to you ... so you have not ever been dead. satan and demons can also completely partially or completely possess a person (while they are alive bodily)

It says in Samuel that a witch was able to conjure up Samuel's spirit, and he spoke with Saul. Not Samuels spirit, she conjured up "a" spirit (a demonic one) . God's word is clear.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11

There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,

Ecclesiastes 9

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

Reference to Noah ... saying that part of the work of Christ was to try to save people, even during the time of Noah, through the same Spirit He tried to save those people whose spirits were imprisoned by the devil (all except Noah and his family were totally destroyed because they refused God continually for the entire 120 years Noah preached to them. He’s not talking about how their ghosts were in hell, chained up, or anything.

This is it in a "nutshell"

1 Thessalonians 4

15 According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep (died earthly death).

All the dead are in the grave (saved and unsaved) The saved will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection, the unsaved in the 2nd resurrection.

God Bless.

Oh, no, I was not the one raised. It was an example to a witch like the examples He gave of curing the cancer of an Islamist. I don't really think anyone will die to be raised of their own accord except Jesus, maybe the Antichrist if you take that sort of interpretation. I understand where you see coming from but disagree with the interpretation, seeing as the Bible calls it Samuel and not a demon presenting as him. It also gives a time love saying, "After being made alive," when it talks if when Jesus went to preach to them, so... I just think people are defensive about it because it might prove many as liars is all -that God might show Himself to not be working with them, or prove them lying in some way in some doctrine.
 
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My "experience" with miracles is primarily through observation rather than participation. A small boy was diagnosed with cancer. He had growths all up and down his back as is my understanding. There was simply too much for the surgeons to risk trying to remove.

As a last ditch effort, the little boy's parents asked for the church leaders to pray over their son. They did so and the boy's cancer was said to have been completely removed. He was said to have been healed in such a way that doctors could find no evidence that he ever had cancer (apart from their own previous diagnoses).

I use conditional language up there because I didn't witness any of this. We were all informed of the boy's terminal condition and then we were later told that he cancer had been healed so completely that it was now undetectable. I never saw any of the medical reports or anything so I can't vouch for what happened one way or the other.

You specifically said you aren't necessarily asking if we believe in miracles. So I'll bend that rule a bit and say that whether or not the above story is true or the faulty product of a very old memory based on possibly incomplete information, it is true that miracles do take place today.
 
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My "experience" with miracles is primarily through observation rather than participation. A small boy was diagnosed with cancer. He had growths all up and down his back as is my understanding. There was simply too much for the surgeons to risk trying to remove.

As a last ditch effort, the little boy's parents asked for the church leaders to pray over their son. They did so and the boy's cancer was said to have been completely removed. He was said to have been healed in such a way that doctors could find no evidence that he ever had cancer (apart from their own previous diagnoses).

I use conditional language up there because I didn't witness any of this. We were all informed of the boy's terminal condition and then we were later told that he cancer had been healed so completely that it was now undetectable. I never saw any of the medical reports or anything so I can't vouch for what happened one way or the other.

You specifically said you aren't necessarily asking if we believe in miracles. So I'll bend that rule a bit and say that whether or not the above story is true or the faulty product of a very old memory based on possibly incomplete information, it is true that miracles do take place today.

And I was also asking for what you might have learned from it in how God led you through your experience. Just like the Bible, it's important to set it before God and see what He reveals if anything at all.
 
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thecolorsblend

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And I was also asking for what you might have learned from it in how God led you through your experience. Just like the Bible, it's important to set it before God and see what He reveals if anything at all.
I guess my takeaway lesson was to get more details and evidence while you can because it's amazing what people forget over the years.
 
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eleos1954

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Oh, no, I was not the one raised. It was an example to a witch like the examples He gave of curing the cancer of an Islamist. I don't really think anyone will die to be raised of their own accord except Jesus, maybe the Antichrist if you take that sort of interpretation. I understand where you see coming from but disagree with the interpretation, seeing as the Bible calls it Samuel and not a demon presenting as him. It also gives a time love saying, "After being made alive," when it talks if when Jesus went to preach to them, so... I just think people are defensive about it because it might prove many as liars is all -that God might show Himself to not be working with them, or prove them lying in some way in some doctrine.

" seeing as the Bible calls it Samuel and not a demon presenting as him"

Samuel asked the witch to raise up Samuel .... that does not mean that is who it was .... and it wasn't Samuel because Samuel is in the grave.

OT teaching on the subject:

Back in Moses’ day, what did God command should be done to people who taught that the dead were alive?

“A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones” (Leviticus 20:27).

God insisted that mediums and others with “familiar spirits” (who claimed to be able to contact the dead) should be stoned to death. This shows how God regards the false teaching that the dead are alive.

And Saul knew this teaching ... that is why he met with the witch "under cover" so to speak. He absolutely went against the command of God.

1 Samuel 28

8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothing and left, accompanied by two of his men. They came to the woman at night and said, “Use your ritual pit to conjure up for me the one I tell you.”

Why did Saul disguise himself? Because he knew it was going against the command from God and others who knew better might see him deliberately disobeying Gods command. If it were or is possible for a human to "talk with the dead", then why would God command that if one claims they can ... they themselves should be put to death?

1 Chronicles 10:13

13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance,
 
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FatalHeart

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" seeing as the Bible calls it Samuel and not a demon presenting as him"

Samuel asked the witch to raise up Samuel .... that does not mean that is who it was .... and it wasn't Samuel because Samuel is in the grave.

OT teaching on the subject:

Back in Moses’ day, what did God command should be done to people who taught that the dead were alive?

“A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones” (Leviticus 20:27).

God insisted that mediums and others with “familiar spirits” (who claimed to be able to contact the dead) should be stoned to death. This shows how God regards the false teaching that the dead are alive.

And Saul knew this teaching ... that is why he met with the witch "under cover" so to speak. He absolutely went against the command of God.

1 Samuel 28

8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothing and left, accompanied by two of his men. They came to the woman at night and said, “Use your ritual pit to conjure up for me the one I tell you.”

Why did Saul disguise himself? Because he knew it was going against the command from God and others who knew better might see him deliberately disobeying Gods command. If it were or is possible for a human to "talk with the dead", then why would God command that if one claims they can ... they themselves should be put to death?

1 Chronicles 10:13

13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance,

I really think you're presuming here as to the reasons God gave. You call them false when God never called them false, just evil.
 
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