Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

[Saint Steven]

In Post #317, before you said,

"Somehow posters seem to think that I am promoting sin. I'm not." ~ Saint Steven.​

You believe the story of the Prodigal Son is an example of the believer who lives in horrible sin and is saved while doing so. Yet, the prodigal son was not said to be "alive again" until he was willing to come home and repent. In fact, his father said he was "dead." The words "dead" and "alive again" are speaking in spiritual terms. But if you disagree, then you must believe the Prodigal Son was saved while committing heinous acts of sin. If such is the case, then you do believe in promoting sin because you teach that a person can sin and still be saved (With the story of the prodigal son being your prime example).

I am still not promoting sin. I'm being questioned about extreme and hypothetical situations, and I am answering to best of my ability. Only to be criticized for it.

I both cases I stated that there is NOTHING we can do to undo what Christ has done for us. If you are looking for something to refute, there you go. Prove it.

In reference to the Prodigal, I was pointing to the actions of the Father. The son, in all human terms had forfeited everything. How did the Father respond? What was Jesus saying about our heavenly Father?

 

[Saint Steven]

Some do not understand when the Bible talks about the "works of the Law of Moses" vs. the "works of faith" (that makes up a true faith). I believe love, showing God's Word, prayer, and fasting will be able to help some of them to see that difference.

Like a "no pain, no gain" style of Christianity? - "... a true faith..." - Not true if it doesn't match your definition. You should find a class on self-flagellation. (that'll learn ya)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You seem to have a perpetual problem with claiming that a verse says something other than what it plainly says. Unless of course it plainly says what you want it to.

This scripture below (which you are commenting on in your post above) says, God justifies the ungodly. That God credits righteousness to those who trust him rather than do works in an attempt to earn it.

But what do you see? You are off in left field carrying on about "Circumcision Salvationism". Is this what I get for cooperating with you? I think I will return to my smart answers. It's whole lot more rewarding.

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Talk about taking a verse out of context in view of the rest of the Bible. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21 says that if a person commits certain sins like murder, adultery, etc. they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Romans 4:4-5 is in context to the rest of Scripture.
When you read about how God justifies the ungodly, Paul is talking about their old past life when they used to be ungodly.

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" (Ephesians 2:2).

"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Ephesians 2:3).

"As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:" (1 Peter 1:14).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).​

You also no doubt believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is talking to the present life of the believer, too. Am I correct? Meaning, you believe that all believers are sinners, etc. However, these verses are talking about how all have sinned at one point in their life and in relation to a believer, it is talking about their old life of sin and not their present status as a believer. How so? Well, if you were to believe that Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 applies to you and or all believers in the present tense (and not just their past only), then you must also believe that believers in the present moment have no understanding and they do not seek after God, too because Romans 3:11 says:

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).

 

[daydreamer40]

Like a "no pain, no gain" style of Christianity? - "... a true faith..." - Not true if it doesn't match your definition. You should find a class on self-flagellation. (that'll learn ya)

I cannot help but reflect, if a Pharisee turned at some peoples houses they would welcome them with open arms as a brother.
Pharisees knew the literal words of the then scriptures inside and out. They insisted the law be fully obeyed if you want to inherit eternal life. They tithed down to their last mint dil and cumin. They did good deeds that everyone could see. They would not have gotten drunk, used foul language, had affairs, nor smoked I imagine if smoking had then been invented. They would have passed some peoples tests with flying colours. They even laid flowers on the graves of the prophets murdered by their forefathers and said: We would never have acted as they did.'' Only one problem, Jesus said they did not even know his Father.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

I’ve met them too. The worst sinners in history can be in heaven sinning to their dying hour if they once believed. If that isn’t an evil doctrine!!

Where in the bible does it say we can sin in heaven? Or was this a grammatical error? Meaning did you mean "The worst sinners in history, can be in heaven, who sin to their dying hour..."

One sin, many sins, all fall short of the glory of God. No matter if you sin once, or the worst sins... all sins are sins. Either His Blood covers ALL sin or no sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I cannot help but reflect, if a Pharisee turned at some peoples houses they would welcome them with open arms as a brother.
Pharisees knew the literal words of the then scriptures inside and out. They insisted the law be fully obeyed if you want to inherit eternal life. They tithed down to their last mint dil and cumin. They did good deeds that everyone could see. They would not have gotten drunk, used foul language, had affairs, nor smoked I imagine if smoking had then been invented. They would have passed some peoples tests with flying colours. They even laid flowers on the graves of the prophets murdered by their forefathers and said: We would never have acted as they did.'' Only one problem, Jesus said they did not even know his Father.

Actually, according to Jesus: The Pharisees ignore the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice and mercy (See Luke 11:42 and Matthew 23:23).

 

[daydreamer40]

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

So taken literally(according to somes literalism)
If you are jealous once, you cannot enter heaven
If you dwell on one impure thought, you cannot enter heaven
If you are envious once, you cannot enter heaven
If you are ever part of a faction, you cannot enter heaven
If you even once have selfish ambition, you cannot enter heaven


The measuere you use to judge others will be used to judge you Matt7:2

 

[daydreamer40]

Actually, according to Jesus: The Pharisees ignore the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice and mercy (See Luke 11:42 and Matthew 23:23).

I don't see much love or mercy in a message of: perform perfect or be cast into hell

 

[Halbhh]

Actually I’ve met a couple that believe a person can at one time be a believer then later curse God, kill Christians, and worship Satan and because they once believed they will be saved even without repenting. No matter what verses I put in front of them they insist that John 10:28 is proof someone cannot believe and lose their salvation no matter what they do.

Often in these discussions can be 3, 4, or more major theological questions, and another 3, 5, 7 minor ones, a good dozen or more, and often people can know several of them correctly, but need to look further at 1. This is good to remember because otherwise we make the mistake of thinking if they have a different view on 1 it means they are wrong on everything, while in fact they have some unique set of views, often many correct. In other words, just because we found someone last year, or last week, that was wrong on point after point, does not mean the person we are talking with now is also wrong on everything, of course.

Let's look at that John 10, v 28 meaning more humbly, fully --

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

We are protected from the powers of darkness, and no power on Earth, under Heaven, not even death, nor any other power can separate us from God's love, nor snatch us from His hand, but....still Christ warns us that our faith will falter and fail if we ourselves do not follow Him by doing as He said to do (Matthew 7:24-27), meaning while no other power can make us fall, we ourselves can fall, and then we need to turn, confess, repent, and return to Him, lest we remain "dead" even though we have already been a son (Luke chapter 15, the Prodigal, already a son, was departed and in the condition of being "dead", but finally repented, returned, confessed, and was forgiven therefore, and so was restored, and thus was "alive".)

No other power can take us from Him, but we ourselves can refuse to walk in the Spirit, and become more and more lost, needing to repent, and turn, and be restored.

What keeps us following Him? One thing He just said directly to you and me in those very 2 verses -- 27, 28 -- is that we listen to Him and follow Him.

If we are listening to Him, His words, and following what He said to do, then we can be assured no power can take us from His salvation of us.

It's just like John chapter 15 -- by remaining in His Words we can remain on the vine and bearing fruit, and not be cast into the fire : as branches already on the vine! can be cast into the fire if they bear no fruit -- John 15.

 

[Saint Steven]

Talk about taking a verse out of context in view of the rest of the Bible. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21 says that if a person commits certain sins like murder, adultery, etc. they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Romans 4:4-5 is in context to the rest of Scripture.
When you read about how God justifies the ungodly, Paul is talking about their old past life when they used to be ungodly.

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" (Ephesians 2:2).

"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Ephesians 2:3).

"As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:" (1 Peter 1:14).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).​

You also no doubt believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is talking to the present life of the believer, too. Am I correct? Meaning, you believe that all believers are sinners, etc. However, these verses are talking about how all have sinned at one point in their life and in relation to a believer, it is talking about their old life of sin and not their present status as a believer. How so? Well, if you were to believe that Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 applies to you and or all believers in the present tense (and not just their past only), then you must also believe that believers in the present moment have no understanding and they do not seek after God, too because Romans 3:11 says:

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).

So you believe that we can sin in ways that God's grace is not big enough to cover? That the work of the Atonement is incomplete. That is truly appalling.

 

[daydreamer40]

You always have to remember, these people who preach a message of righteousness of obeying the law, or, you are placed in a condemned state if you even once break the law, simply excuse their own sin. Some of them do not even know when they are sinning. For those who do, what goes on, on the inside is brushed off as being of no account because it is only breaking the law relating to the inner man. Other sin is somehow justified. Only a hardened heart can excuse, or justify their sin

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your not lost everytime you commit a sin post conversion, if that were so we would all be lost Romans 6:6.

Jesus disagrees with you.
He says,

28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:15).​

Paul disagrees with you.

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).​

John disagrees with you.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).​

Peter disagrees with you.

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).​

So what is Romans 6:6 saying?

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Romans 6:6).​

It is talking about overcoming sin and not about how we can sin and still be saved.

 

[Saint Steven]

I cannot help but reflect, if a Pharisee turned at some peoples houses they would welcome them with open arms as a brother.
Pharisees knew the literal words of the then scriptures inside and out. They insisted the law be fully obeyed if you want to inherit eternal life. They tithed down to their last mint dil and cumin. They did good deeds that everyone could see. They would not have gotten drunk, used foul language, had affairs, nor smoked I imagine if smoking had then been invented. They would have passed some peoples tests with flying colours. They even laid flowers on the graves of the prophets murdered by their forefathers and said: We would never have acted as they did.'' Only one problem, Jesus said they did not even know his Father.

Right. What did the Apostle say in this regard?

Philippians 3:4-9
though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you believe that we can sin in ways that God's grace is not big enough to cover? That the work of the Atonement is incomplete. That is truly appalling.

Again, you borrow from morality to make your point but then you later violate morality by the very belief itself in the fact that it says a person can do evil and God can reward them with the goodness of Heaven. So do you believe it would be good to reward people in doing evil? Why would that be morally wrong?

In other words, you believe in "Selective Morality." You borrow from Morality to make a point for defending your belief, but then you fail in the fact that the very belief you have is immoral in the fact that it says you can sin and still be saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Right. What did the Apostle say in this regard?

Philippians 3:4-9
though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

He is talking about the Law of Moses and not all law in general.

 

[Saint Steven]

Again, you borrow from morality to make your point but then you later violate morality by the very belief itself in the fact that it says a person can do evil and God can reward them with the goodness of Heaven. So do you believe it would be good to reward people in doing evil? Why would that be morally wrong?

In other words, you believe "Selective Morality."

That's what grace is. Rewarding people for doing evil. Hello?

Compassion is when we get the good thing we don't deserve.
Mercy is when we don't get the bad thing we do deserve.

Exodus 33:19
… I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 

[daydreamer40]

Right. What did the Apostle say in this regard?

Philippians 3:4-9
though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

Jason believes Jesus died at Calvary to annul a righteousness of obeying law that could be perfectly obeyed(the legalistic law)

 

[Saint Steven]

He is talking about the Law of Moses and not all law in general.

Where did Moses get the law? (from God)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's what grace is. Rewarding people for doing evil. Hello?

What? No. Grace is when we receive mercy when we are seeking God's forgiveness over the sins we have done. Grace is not a reward in doing evil. Oh boy. What you believe is very scary. Do you understand the difference between the good guys vs. the bad guys when you go out into the world or when you turn on the news or when you watch a movie? The bad guys are bad because they do bad things. If a bad guy were to reward people for doing evil, that would be.... evil. How on Earth do you not see that?

 

[daydreamer40]

It does not therefore depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy Rom9:16