Can God be improved?

[AnticipateHisComing]

To ask if God can change himself requires imagining a God who can be different than He is, regardless of whether He can change Himself or not

But God did change himself. The Son of God was made lower for a little while. But, my OP question is can God improve any part of himself? You seem focused on God's nature. I am thinking his form, spiritual or physical. Do you see the problem yet?

 

[ToBeLoved]

On the one hand, we know Jesus increased or grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52).
Yet, on the other hand, we also know that the fulness of the Godhead dwelled within the body of Christ.

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9).

The word "Godhead" is in reference to the Trinity. I know others believe it is in reference to deity. Either way, it makes the same point that Jesus is fully and 100% God in every respect and way. The fulness of deity or the Godhead was in the man Christ Jesus. This means He fully had the power of God because the fulness of God was in Him. So the only logical conclusion that we are led to believe is that the Eternal Word (the Logos) suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience during His Earthly life.

I disagree but let’s just leave it at that.

 

[ToBeLoved]

One can be changed to a lower position and still be "perfect"/without fault.
This is what occurred in the Son of God when he became man for a little while. He did not become imperfect, he became lower than angels to become "perfect", which as I already explained means he completed God's plan of redemption for us.

Also, there are angels in heaven that are perfect but at different ranks.

I think it is about rank also.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But God did change himself. The Son of God was made lower for a little while. But, my OP question is can God improve any part of himself? You seem focused on God's nature. I am thinking his form, spiritual or physical. Do you see the problem yet?

I believe when Jesus took on flesh and blood He did temporarily loose some of the things that He had as spirit or having a heavenly form.

When we go to God, we will also get spiritual or heavenly bodies not confined by the flesh.

I think spiritual bodies are probably the norm and we are very restricted by our human bodies.

When Paul speaks of the flesh, he talks about how his mind thinks one way but the flesh is weak.

I believe that when Jesus became flesh and blood that the limitation of the flesh made Jesus power lower than angels temporarily due to the restrictions of the flesh and blood body and function.

 

[PaulCyp1]

No, since He is already perfect in every way.

 

[dqhall]

Do you think it possible for God to change any facet of himself such that some time later, than the beginning, he has improved any part of himself?

Scripture of course says the Son of God was made lower, so we can't doubt that God could "descend to a lower level" temporarily. And if he was lowered, it does not count for my question that when he undoes his lowering as an improvement.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Malachi 3:6 “I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.​

But, there are those two references to Jesus being made perfect in his death.

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.​

Of course I don't think the Son of God was ever less than perfect. So I think this a reference to the other definition of perfect, to be complete. Jesus completed God's greatest act of love for us when he died for our salvation. So Jesus was not made better, he just completed his earthly mission.

So my question, can God ever improve any part of himself, I say no.

Who do you think is bringing miraculous changes to the earth? People have things mankind did not have 2000 years ago. People are being fed, receiving health care, have better shelter and transportation. Knowledge is being increased. Peoples lived are turned from failure to success. The Gospel is being shared in far away nations. To God be the glory.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Who do you think is bringing miraculous changes to the earth? People have things mankind did not have 2000 years ago. People are being fed, receiving health care, have better shelter and transportation. Knowledge is being increased. Peoples lived are turned from failure to success. The Gospel is being shared in far away nations. To God be the glory.

Is God blessing His creation and giving them good things not part of who God is tho? All the angels who did not rebel have good things from God.

Adam and Eve before sin walked with God in the garden. They were in relationship with God. And when God thought that man would be happier with a mate, Eve came along.

 

[ewq1938]

Adam and Eve before sin walked with God in the garden.

What do you mean by this?

 

[ewq1938]

So my question, can God ever improve any part of himself, I say no.

TBH no human can answer such questions because we are without the actual knowledge. We can only give our opinion, opinions on something we really know nothing about.

But what we do know from scripture is a part of the Trinity came to be born human, and that was a position lower than the angels and was temporary. So, I see a temp. humbling/lowering of one part of the Trinity, and then a restoration back to original Godly place.

 

[ToServe]

Do you think it possible for God to change any facet of himself such that some time later, than the beginning, he has improved any part of himself?

Scripture of course says the Son of God was made lower, so we can't doubt that God could "descend to a lower level" temporarily. And if he was lowered, it does not count for my question that when he undoes his lowering as an improvement.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Malachi 3:6 “I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.​

But, there are those two references to Jesus being made perfect in his death.

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.​

Of course I don't think the Son of God was ever less than perfect. So I think this a reference to the other definition of perfect, to be complete. Jesus completed God's greatest act of love for us when he died for our salvation. So Jesus was not made better, he just completed his earthly mission.

So my question, can God ever improve any part of himself, I say no.

How can perfection be improved is the question that begs?

John said God is Love, that is not the act of loving but Love itself that trascends any comparable measure of Love to compare to.

If we draw the same exegetical line of reasoning, we can declare that God is Perfect, not the act of being perfect but Perfect itself. So what would Perfect be a measure comparabke to in order to guage an improvement of Perfection?

Absolutely non!

So a source of Light can only be measured and compared to other sources of light to guage differences in intensity, spectrum and quality of light.

John said God is Light, so if we want to do a comparative study we need another source of light to compare to, on the comparative basis of intrinsic qualities that would be a measure of quality and improvement.

With God as the Alpha and Omega, who is Light, who is Love, who is Perfect has absolutely no other source to compare to except his unchangeable qualities and if people argue that God continually perfects himself against himself, then this would imply a counter argument that he had less than perfect beggining which then contradicts the original claim by God that he is Perfect, since no other comparable sources of Perfection exist for himself to compare himself to in order to improve on perfection.

The question of the thread topic becomes moot, where moot means

moot point. A debatable question, an issue open to argument; also, an irrelevant question, a matter of no importance. For example, Whether Shakespeare actually wrote the poem remains a moot point among critics, or It's a moot point whether the chicken or the egg came first.

It is a moot point whether God or Perfection came first, especially when He as the Alpha and Omega has always declared himself Perfect forever and forever.

 

[DamianWarS]

Do you think it possible for God to change any facet of himself such that some time later, than the beginning, he has improved any part of himself?

if God is eternal it means it is unchanging. God doesn't change because if he progressed it suggests a beginning and if he digressed it suggests an ending. God is also perfect in all ways and anything less than perfect would implicate the finite.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil​

I don't think it is that difficult to figure out what aspect of the Son of God changed when he came as man. Read the scripture. It explicitly mentions two things.

1) Made lower, than the angels. His glory was later restored when he returned to heaven.
I think this is the most drastic measure of Jesus' being humbled to a man. At other times in the OT, the Son of God appeared to men and demanded reverence. Not once did Jesus demand reverence and it was only given to him at birth, Mary's anointing, and once after his resurrection, but he rebuked it until his ascension.

2) Made in the flesh. This means his spirit form changed to physical. That means omnipresence goes out the door. It means he was on earth and not in heaven.

While you are arguing about Omniscience, it may have happened at birth, but I believe he got it back. He spoke as one with authority/author/Word. Of course he knows scripture. He could read peoples thoughts. He knew the past and future. He was compared to King Solomon the wisest/smartest man to ever live and deemed greater.

About not having omnipresence and being in heaven, I think this is a clue with the appearance of Moses and Elijah at Jesus' transfiguration. If the point of the transfiguration was just to show Jesus in his greater glory, then why would Moses and Elijah be present? I think Jesus communication with the angels/heavenly access was limited. Jesus is the commander of the angels and I think Moses and Elijah filled in when he was on earth.

Then God ceased to be God in some way.

 

[SolomonVII]

Do you think it possible for God to change any facet of himself such that some time later, than the beginning, he has improved any part of himself?

Scripture of course says the Son of God was made lower, so we can't doubt that God could "descend to a lower level" temporarily. And if he was lowered, it does not count for my question that when he undoes his lowering as an improvement.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Malachi 3:6 “I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.​

But, there are those two references to Jesus being made perfect in his death.

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.​

Of course I don't think the Son of God was ever less than perfect. So I think this a reference to the other definition of perfect, to be complete. Jesus completed God's greatest act of love for us when he died for our salvation. So Jesus was not made better, he just completed his earthly mission.

So my question, can God ever improve any part of himself, I say no.

Can perfection be perfected?
God is not constrained by time as we are. He is the One who is and was and shall be. Change happens in time, and not in a mode of Being that transcends time.
We on the other hand become perfected by aiming for the perfection that is God, as he is revealed to us in time. Our vision of God progresses... or regresses (there is much cyclical about being in the state of sin).
Certainly the future reveals more and more about the God as he shall be as we become more intimately understanding of the fullness of God through future beatific visions.
But God does not change. He simply is, or as he tells us, "I AM".

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Then God ceased to be God in some way.

God can not cease to be God. God may lower himself as scripture says, that I quoted. All the aspects of what that means, we kind of guess. I used scripture to support what I thought it meant for the Son of God. You have to be blind to think that the Son of God was the same in heaven as born a baby.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

How can perfection be improved is the question that begs?


It is a moot point whether God or Perfection came first, especially when He as the Alpha and Omega has always declared himself Perfect forever and forever.

Can you apply the same fervor to the body of God?

 

[ToBeLoved]

God can not cease to be God. God may lower himself as scripture says, that I quoted. All the aspects of what that means, we kind of guess. I used scripture to support what I thought it meant for the Son of God. You have to be blind to think that the Son of God was the same in heaven as born a baby.

Jesus would have never been sinless if He was not God and obedient to the Father

 

[Bobber]

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God can not cease to be God. God may lower himself as scripture says, that I quoted. All the aspects of what that means, we kind of guess. I used scripture to support what I thought it meant for the Son of God. You have to be blind to think that the Son of God was the same in heaven as born a baby.

Well, that is your perspective that you think I am blind;
But I do not ascribe to your reasoning, my friend.

The Eternal Word is one with the Father. For Jesus says, "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30). Jesus also says, "Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?" (John 14:10). In other words, the Eternal Word ruled even by abiding in the Father (who was in Heaven). For why do you think Jesus says the Son of Man is in Heaven to Nicodemus? (See John 3:13). It's because He is one with the Father and He abides in Him (even when He was just an infant).

Also, the Eternal Word (Who became flesh) also suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience (i.e. to have all knowledge). Why? Because it is the only conclusion that we can logically come to. On the one hand, Luke tells us how Jesus increased (or grew) in wisdom (Luke 2:52). Yet, on the other hand, Paul say that the fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily (Colossians 2:9). Not 30% of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. Not 50% of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. Not 75% of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. The fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily (Meaning 100% of the Godhead dwelled within the body of the man known as Christ Jesus). For if the fulness of "deity" or if the fulness of the Eternal Logos (Which is a part of the Godhead or the Trinity) dwelled within the body of the man Jesus, then that would include all of the Eternal Word's divine attributes. So I believe Colossians 2:9 when it says the fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. Do you?

In other words, if what you say is true, then Colossians 2:9 would not be true in what it says. Well, either that or you would have to change the word "fulness" to mean something else. But I am not going to do that. I am just going to read and believe the Bible plainly in what it says.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48

Jesus also told us to be perfect as He is, too.

"The disciple is not above his master:
but every one that is perfect shall be as his master."
(Luke 6:40).​

For in order for us to be perfect, the master Has to be perfect. Jesus is our master and so if we want to be perfect, we will be like Him in regards to behavior (and not in essence obviously - for a disciple is not above his master).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil​

I don't think it is that difficult to figure out what aspect of the Son of God changed when he came as man. Read the scripture. It explicitly mentions two things.

1) Made lower, than the angels. His glory was later restored when he returned to heaven.
I think this is the most drastic measure of Jesus' being humbled to a man. At other times in the OT, the Son of God appeared to men and demanded reverence. Not once did Jesus demand reverence and it was only given to him at birth, Mary's anointing, and once after his resurrection, but he rebuked it until his ascension.

2) Made in the flesh. This means his spirit form changed to physical. That means omnipresence goes out the door. It means he was on earth and not in heaven.

While you are arguing about Omniscience, it may have happened at birth, but I believe he got it back. He spoke as one with authority/author/Word. Of course he knows scripture. He could read peoples thoughts. He knew the past and future. He was compared to King Solomon the wisest/smartest man to ever live and deemed greater.

About not having omnipresence and being in heaven, I think this is a clue with the appearance of Moses and Elijah at Jesus' transfiguration. If the point of the transfiguration was just to show Jesus in his greater glory, then why would Moses and Elijah be present? I think Jesus communication with the angels/heavenly access was limited. Jesus is the commander of the angels and I think Moses and Elijah filled in when he was on earth.

His Spirit form as the Eternal Logos was not changed to the physical. Jesus referred to His body as a temple and not as the essence of who He was. A temple is just a building or outer shell. God calls our bodies as temples but our bodies is not the essence of our soul and spirit that lives inside our bodies. In fact, Jesus said that He would be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights. This would be within the realm of the dead (Sheol). In fact, Jesus said to the thief that He would be with Him that very day in Paradise. Jesus also declared a message to the spirits in prison (i.e. the realm of the dead). God the Father did not leave the soul of the Eternal Logos in Sheol or the realm of the dead. Jesus had risen from out of the heart of the Earth and His body came back to life. Jesus then ascended to the Father so as to be our mediator between God the Father and man.