The doctrine of imputation is hypocritical

[redleghunter]

Gal. 2:17
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Which makes Christ the Justifier. What made Jesus Christ the Divine Logos the Justifier?

 

[Ripheus27]

Hi Ripheus, just to be clear before I comment further, you think that the idea of imputation is "profane", whether that be the Father crediting His Son's righteousness to our accounts or, on the other hand, His crediting of our sinfulness to His Son's account?

Both.

The Pilgrim's Progress is a fictional work by John Bunyan, it is not meant to be taken literally, it is meant to be an allegory.

The sections in question were catechisms, so their context does not make them in themselves allegorical. (That's not what allegory is, after all.)

I don't quite understand, you start a thread saying that The Doctrine of Imputation is Hypocritical, but you aren't able to come up with anything that you are saying is Hypocritical.

You asked me to demonstrate that there are works of Christ that are imputed to us and by which we are saved. Since God does not impute any of Christ's works to us in order to save us, you seemed to be asking me to demonstrate something false.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Isaiah 53 shows this as well:

Isaiah 53: NASB

11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

A repeat because this verse is so clear...

Isaiah 53: NASB

11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

His, He = The Father ("be satisfied", the satisfaction of the wrath of God the Father on sinners, "it" refers to "He will bear their iniquities" referring to substitutional atonement by the Righteous One, the Son of God satisfying the wrath of God the Father)
Righteous One, Servant, His and He (emboldened) = The Son of God, Jesus Christ, The Mesiah

His knowledge (John 17:3) of the many, the elect, the chosen few, those whom the Father draws to the Son. Bear as in be a substitute, iniquities as in sin.

Thank you for posting this verse Red, how helpful it is to this discussion.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do not waste my time with word-games, unless you find it pleasing to speak so disrespectfully of the question of our salvation.

When you start with a false precept, whatever follows will not stand. Therefore, if you think it is a waste of time to stop or point out construction on quicksand, that's on you.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You asked me to demonstrate that there are works of Christ that are imputed to us and by which we are saved. Since God does not impute any of Christ's works to us in order to save us, you seemed to be asking me to demonstrate something false.

see preceding.
(obviously)?

You still did not show, even (apparently) in the quotes you posted,
that we "Christians" think or ever said "WORKS" were 'imputed' to anyone.

RIGHTEOUSNESS is different and separate and distinct from WORKS,
as you apparently agree "... God does not impute any of Christ's works to us...."

 

[Ripheus27]

You still did not show, even (apparently) in the quotes you posted, that we "Christians" think or ever said "WORKS" were 'imputed' to anyone.

RIGHTEOUSNESS is different and separate and distinct from WORKS

Christ's justificatory righteousness is defined as His obedience, which is a work. When it is said that "all our righteousness is as rags" and that this is why our works do not save us, well, that just goes to show that Christ's righteousness is His work. Again, no more with these word-games.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Christ's justificatory righteousness is defined as His obedience, which is a work.

This wasn't questioned. (it might be later)

When it is said that "all our righteousness is as rags" and that this is why our works do not save us,

Who said our works save us ? (anyone?)

well, that just goes to show that Christ's righteousness is His work.

So is Christ's righteousness imputed to anyone, and if so, then His work is also imputed to them?

If so, why the title "doctrine of imputation is hypocritical" ?

 

[Ripheus27]

Who said our works save us ? (anyone?)

No one SAYS that our works save us, but it is entailed by the doctrine of imputation. So if you don't want to believe that your works save you, you ought to deny the doctrine of imputation (among other things).

So is Christ's righteousness imputed to anyone, and if so, then His work is also imputed to them?

If all birds have wings, and a sparrow is a bird, wouldn't I conclude that a sparrow has wings?

If so, why the title "doctrine of imputation is hypocritical" ?

Look, I can't read or reason for you. Let's say, I can't impute my mind to you.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No one SAYS that our works save us, but it is entailed by the doctrine of imputation.

I think this is clearly false.

So if you don't want to believe that your works save you

Do YOU believe your works save you ?!

 

[Ripheus27]

I think this is clearly false.

I think it's clearly true, and in the most horrible way imaginable, because the doctrine literally asserts that the actions of a person different from us are thought of (if not out-and-out believed) by God, contrary to reality, to be our actions, so that God basically lies to Himself to get us off the hook.

Do YOU believe your works save you ?!

No.

 

[redleghunter]

I think it's clearly true, and in the most horrible way imaginable, because the doctrine literally asserts that the actions of a person different from us are thought of (if not out-and-out believed) by God, contrary to reality, to be our actions, so that God basically lies to Himself to get us off the hook.



No.

Is it your position 'we' need to be as obedient as Jesus to merit the righteousness of God?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I think someone gave you (OR you assumed) wrong information about 'imputation' as nothing posted so far shows what you are stating.
That, or something else is the actual 'problem' or challenge and it has not been disclosed yet.

 

[Ripheus27]

Is it your position 'we' need to be as obedient as Jesus to merit the righteousness of God?

My position is that God decides to pardon us because Christ (as a man) asks Him to, and God agrees because Christ is righteous. Not because God does a mental loop-de-loop where He looks at Christ, then looks at us, then superimposes the image of Christ over our image and so on and on.

 

[redleghunter]

My position is that God decides to pardon us because Christ (as a man) asks Him to, and God agrees because Christ is righteous. Not because God does a mental loop-de-loop where He looks at Christ, then looks at us, then superimposes the image of Christ over our image and so on and on.

What does it mean to you to be justified by faith?

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Ripheus, just to be clear before I comment further, you think that the idea of imputation is "profane", whether that be the Father crediting His Son's righteousness to our accounts or, on the other hand, His crediting of our sinfulness to His Son's account?

Thanks!

--David

2 Corinthians 5
21 ..He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

Both.

OK, then I have a couple of more questions if you don't mind? Why the Incarnation and why the Cross IOW, why do you believe that Jesus had to 1. come here as a man and 2. die that horrible death on the Cross for us if it was not absolutely necessary for Him to do so?

Thanks!

--David

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

My position is that God decides to pardon us because Christ (as a man) asks Him to, and God agrees because Christ is righteous. Not because God does a mental loop-de-loop where He looks at Christ, then looks at us, then superimposes the image of Christ over our image and so on and on.

Sorry but this op, topic, thread and these ideas are looking more and more like 'loop-de-loop's.....
i.e. the position(s) and idea(s) stated in this quoted post is not found in Yahweh's Plan, Purpose or Word.

Consider going back and discovering, if Yahweh permits, who taught you this and judge it according to Yahweh's Word (i.e. don't accept it because of whatever other reasons you believed it when you were taught this) .

 

[Ripheus27]

What does it mean to you to be justified by faith?

We have faith that Christ will save us, that is, that He will ask the Father for our forgiveness, and that because of His righteousness, His Father will agree. We don't have a merely intellectual assent to the declarative sentences, "Jesus is God," or suchlike. We have a specific mental image of Christ saving us in mind.

Basically, we ask Christ to save us, and it is up to Him whether He will (it is by His grace that He does so). He has promised to save all who ask Him to, though, so we can have hope that if we truly ask Him to save us, He will. Now, I also think some outward actions correspond to an insincere request to be saved (so to speak). So there is room for "expressive" works not as a cause of salvation, but a result of it (or, even more precisely, being virtuous is the very same thing as being saved).

OK, then I have a couple of more questions if you don't mind? Why the Incarnation and why the Cross IOW, why do you believe that Jesus had to 1. come here as a man and 2. die that horrible death on the Cross for us if it was not absolutely necessary for Him to do so?

God is perfect, so does perfect things, and the most valiant example of humility possible would be a being like God taking a form like that of sinful humanity, so it eternally follows that He would do such a thing. As far as the New Testament indicates, obedience unto death on a cross is a further refinement of that perfect humility.

I never said that it wasn't absolutely necessary for Jesus Christ to die on a cross as such, did I? I just said that it wasn't due to the logic of imputation that He had to.

Sorry but this op, topic, thread and these ideas are looking more and more like 'loop-de-loop's.....
i.e. the position(s) and idea(s) stated in this quoted post is not found in Yahweh's Plan, Purpose or Word.

Consider going back and discovering, if Yahweh permits, who taught you this and judge it according to Yahweh's Word (i.e. don't accept it because of whatever other reasons you believed it when you were taught this) .

I guess you think I haven't already done this?

 

[redleghunter]

We have faith that Christ will save us, that is, that He will ask the Father for our forgiveness, and that because of His righteousness, His Father will agree. We don't have a merely intellectual assent to the declarative sentences, "Jesus is God," or suchlike. We have a specific mental image of Christ saving us in mind.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

What is the basis for forgiveness of sins and basis for justification?

 

[St_Worm2]

I never said that it wasn't absolutely necessary for Jesus Christ to die on a cross as such, did I? I just said that it wasn't due to the logic of imputation that He had to.

Hi Ripheus, why do you believe that the Lord's death on the Cross was absolutely necessary for our salvation?

BTW, it would help me if you'd explain what you believe imputation is, because unless/until we're sure that we're both on the same page about the meaning of the terminology we're using, we could simply be talking past or around one another.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[EmSw]

Notice that you said imputed works, earlier. NOT imputed righteousness.

See?

There is A LOT OF DIFFERENCE.

Yes, it seems you were apparently terribly wrong.... no worries though, it can be corrected.

Righteousness denotes that which is from good, and good is all that which belongs to love and charity. Righteousness is therefore, what good a man does.