Could most modern translations be in error?

[redleghunter]

there are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

First thank you for the direct and comprehensive response. I will take chunk by chunk given the length and also the effort you put in.

On the above I do see that the ages and ages would be arbitrary or subjective for both Life and punishment. Yet when it comes to giving Life eternal and the fact we become like Him that is Christ at the Resurrection, what is there to suggest such a Life would cease or change at some point?

Please note I am not addressing the punishment line right now but the eternal or in your view ages of ages or age during Life.

 

[ClementofA]

No it does not:

10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.

All things does not mean all people. Ephesians 1:11-13 explains who the on earth refers to...those in Christ His elect.

There's no "all things" in the Greek. It is just "all". They are to be "in Christ" which implies their salvation:

Eph.1:10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth 11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

Verses 11-13 place no limits on that:

11In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory. 13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Those in the heavens (Eph.1:10) include spiritually wicked beings:

Eph.6:12 because we are not wrestling against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world's rulers, of the darkness of this age, against the spiritual hosts of evil in the heavenlies.

So, they, also, will be saved "in Christ" as per Eph.1:10.

 

[redleghunter]

So, they, also, will be saved "in Christ" as per Eph.1:10.

The same Christ rejected in their mortal lives on earth.

 

[ClementofA]

"We proceed to point out the sad plight into which unbounded confidence in the present translations betrays its devotees."

 

[redleghunter]

"We proceed to point out the sad plight into which unbounded confidence in the present translations betrays its devotees."

That’s by Bryant McGill. Don’t think he is a theologian. Is he even a Christian?

 

[ClementofA]

That’s by Bryant McGill. Don’t think he is a theologian. Is he even a Christian?

Is it? Where is your source (url, book title & page, etc) where i can see that Bryant McGill
wrote (or, perhaps, plagiarized) what i quoted?

BTW, I've never even heard of anyone named Bryant McGill.

 

[redleghunter]

Is it? Where is your source (url, book title & page, etc) where i can see that Bryant McGill
wrote (or, perhaps, plagiarized) what i quoted?

BTW, I've never even heard of anyone named Bryant McGill.

You put quotation marks on a statement. Incumbent upon you to reveal the source.

 

[ClementofA]

You put quotation marks on a statement. Incumbent upon you to reveal the source.

You claimed to name the source. I asked you to back up your claim with evidence. Where are you getting your info? If you can't do that, then i'd suggest that you retract your claim.

 

[redleghunter]

You claimed to name the source. I asked you to back up your claim with evidence. Where are you getting your info? If you can't do that, then i'd suggest that you retract your claim.

You put up quotation marks without naming the source. It is incumbent upon you to reveal your source.

 

[Oldmantook]

I agree, but no where does it say our 'true eternal' forgiveness is based upon 'believing' and 'obeying'. Only our temporal soulish forgiveness and concomitant bodily immortality in this age are subject to loss, as I understand scripture.

John 3:16 speaks of "shall not perish", but only the soul and body can do so, not the spirit, which we are, and the only thing of us 'made in the image of God who is spirit'.

YLT Hebrews 5:9 and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,

I believe that Christ has given us the ability to overcome the last enemy of 'temporal death' in this age we are living in. I believe in immortality as the goal of us IF we also become "PERFECT" through suffering, as did Jesus. No scripture anywhere says we can't, that I know of anyway.

~Stewards of God's Grace
1PE 4:1 Christ, then, having suffered for us in the flesh, ye also with the same mind arm yourselves, because he who did suffer in the flesh hath done with sin,2 no more in the desires of men, but in the will of God, to live the rest of [the] time in the flesh;

I like to read the above with the understanding that the definite articles are added by carnal minded interpretations which don't understand our potential to be "overcomers" to the point of "perfection"....and "immortality".

RSV
Romans 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

As WE know, in the nominal translations 'eternal life' doesn't mean 'eternal life'...really. It means the 'life of God' that's available for us in this age. But I believe it is us who ends the potential life we have available to us 'in God', before the end of the age. How do we end it? By sin. Oh yes, our sins are 'forever forgiven', but they are still 'temporally deadly' to our soul and flesh.

Again in the YLT
ROM 2:-76 who shall render to each according to his works; 7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility - life age-during;

I know, I know....the broom closet just got a little roomier.


I do believe the above is true of every man not only "drawn/dragged" as you correctly said, but also "predestined, called, chosen, ordained to believe" by God. Not only in this age, but the ages past since the dawn of creation. Thankfully HIS plan is a bit more far sighted than the myopic plan of the nominal church. A plan that we see is 'short sighted' and 'eternally wrong'.

Believing (Jn 3:16) and obeying (Heb 5:9) in the Greek are rendered in the present tense. Thus these requirements for eternal life in these two verses mandate that a believer must continue "believing" and "obeying." Failure to do so results in no longer having eternal life.
By "perfect" do you mean that believers cannot/do not sin? 1 John 1:8-10 states that we all sin. Though we all sin, there is a marked difference between occasional sin and the practice of sin.

 

[Oldmantook]

Does not help out your cause.




Again not helping out your cause.

In Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 we have a final Judgment. There is no indication of a later parole. Yes God is Love but He is also Holy and will Judge.

Replying "does not help your cause" certainly does not help your cause.

 

[Oldmantook]

Very familiar with apokatastasis.

I think there have been well meaning and loving Christians throughout history with the hope that those damned will be restored. We should hope no one rejects Christ Jesus. But the Scriptures are clear. This life we have on earth is the time to accept or reject Messiah Jesus Son of the Living God. We who hear and reject Christ reject the Father’s gift of Grace in Christ’s blood. If we reject Him we are judged. The Love of God is that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

We all have to answer the same question Jesus posed to His disciples. “Who do you say that I am?”

Remembering that when Peter said “you are the Christ the Son of the Living God” Jesus said, “For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.”

God is indeed Love. He is also Holy, Holy, Holy and Judge. And His Judgment is Righteous.

His Gospel is His Love. Reject His Gospel you reject His Love and His Son. That is why there is a Great White Throne judgment and some are judged according to their works and not the Works of Christ.

No matter of punishment in the Lake of Fire will purge the unrepentant heart.

Since God is indeed love, he certainly does not love those whom he punishes forever in the LOF does he? Your belief manifests quite a contradiction in terms.

 

[redleghunter]

Since God is indeed love, he certainly does not love those whom he punishes forever in the LOF does he? Your belief manifests quite a contradiction in terms.

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)

 

[Oldmantook]

The verse does not state all people will be reconciled.

Colossians 1:NASB

15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence. 19For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

21Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. 22But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— 23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creationd under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.(NASB)

The peace is through the blood of the cross. Which some have or will reject as we see in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20.

The context does not lead to those in the Lake of Fire being reconciled. We know this by other Scriptures:

John 3: NASB
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.” (NASB)

Indeed Christ came so no one would perish. Then immediately following this we see those who believe will not be condemned and those who don’t believe have been condemned already. That is those who reject the Grace of God.

Ephesians 1:NASB
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, 8that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.

11In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory.

13And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

Besides all the language of elect, chosen and predestined we see in verse 10 a plan to bring all things in Heaven and on Earth together in Christ. Such is smack in the middle of explaining God has an elect who will gain an inheritance. Once again nothing about people in the Lake of Fire being reconciled. Only the eternal and temporal brought together.

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We are either sons of disobedience or adopted sons of God. It is God’s Gospel of Grace which is His Love. Some will accept this and the Righteousness of Christ Jesus and some will not. God will Judge.



Show me where this means all condemned for their unbelief and disobedience will be reconciled.

Show me where all who bow the knee are God’s adopted sons and daughters.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Christ as King. When He comes as conquering King (Revelation 19).

Col 1:20 plainly states "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood,shed on the cross." There are no caveats in this verse. All means all. In order for to you to support your view, you have to qualify "all" as "some."
When Jesus plainly stated that he will draw/drag all to himself in Jn 12:32 did he qualify his statement by only meaning some? Again you have to qualify the plain words of Jesus in order to suit your belief. 1 1 Cor 15:22 states "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." Do all die in Adam? Yes. If you affirm the former without qualification, you are also obligated to affirm the latter without qualification. If not, Adam's transgression is greater than Christ's sacrifice which is precisely why the Good News is the good news because Christ's sacrifice like Adam's transgression which affects all of mankind - all will be made alive.

 

[Oldmantook]

Earth is creation which is temporal. The seen. Heaven is out of space and time which is eternal. The unseen.

The present earth will pass away. However the New Jerusalem will exist on the new earth - not in heaven.

 

[Oldmantook]

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)

Indeed. Those in the LOF are indeed judged. Does the verse go on to specify what happens after the judgment?? Eternal torment or will all things be reconciled to God? Your choice.

 

[Oldmantook]

<omt>You have argued with those who believe in the doctrine of apokatastasis for quite some time now and yet you still have to ask the question "what do the unrepentant have to do and when do they have to do it?" I find that quite remarkable as it seems you haven't studied apokatastasis and what those who believe in it adhere to, or at the very least have not even understood the arguments you were replying to. Nonetheless to answer your question, the simple answer is the unrepentant who end up in the lake of fire spend an age of time there, are punished/chastised for their sin, until such time that they repent so that "so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:10-11); thus fulfilling God's stated purpose in Col 1:20: "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
The context makes perfect sense as the scriptures do not conflict with each other as scripture informs scripture.<end>
You wrongly assume that I have never read this passage. I have read the scripture and addressed the argument many times. The unrepentant will indeed bow theirs knees and proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord as David prophesied.
Psalms 110:1

(1) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luke 20:42-43
(42) And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(43) Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.[Acts of the apostles 2:35, Hebrews 10:13] ​

So...your conclusion is?? Every knee bowing and every tongue confessing...are those not salvific terms as consistently expressed throughout the scriptures or do you have a way of explaining away those terms? When God's stated purpose is to reconcile ALL THINGS to himself, how do you suppose those in the LOF are reconciled when they supposedly spend an eternity there in punishment for their sins/unbelief? Quite a contradiction.

 

[ClementofA]

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)

Why did you post that verse with no comment? What's the point?


LYING SCRIBES:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/could-most-modern-translations-be-in-error.8078998/

 

[redleghunter]

Indeed. Those in the LOF are indeed judged. Does the verse go on to specify what happens after the judgment?? Eternal torment or will all things be reconciled to God? Your choice.

As a matter of fact the Scriptures do not address a second salvation in the LoF.

 

[Hillsage]

As a matter of fact the Scriptures do not address a second salvation in the LoF.

They never had their 'first chance' yet, because they were never "predestined, called, chosen, or ordained TO believe" (multiple verses) as the scriptures are so clearly pointing out for those who 'will be saved' in this age. As opposed to those who 'will be saved' "in the ages to come." (Eph 2:7) The 'process' is the same, only God's timing is the real issue.