Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

[Loren T.]

Strangely I think I technically learned more about humility from C.S. Lewis than any other. The moment we even think we are humble, we are prideful. Interesting how that works, our self-efforts at humility are prideful in themselves.

I don't disagree. But what does that have to do with true humility? God looks on the heart, not what we think we are, but what we really are.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I don't disagree. But what does that have to do with true humility? God looks on the heart, not what we think we are, but what we really are.

Sure, agree, but trivialize the point. Sure God knows every heart and mind at all times, and sure we are subject to being deceived about ourselves, but true humility comes from God, the work of the Spirit of God bringing truth and self-reflection in a way which brings about humility. Knowing one is not receiving what they deserve, is great cause for humility, but knowledge alone does not enable or necessarily bring about humility.

 

[Loren T.]

Sure, agree, but trivialize the point. Sure God knows every heart and mind at all times, and sure we are subject to being deceived about ourselves, but true humility comes from God, the work of the Spirit of God bringing truth and self-reflection in a way which brings about humility. Knowing one is not receiving what they deserve, is great cause for humility, but knowledge alone does not enable or necessarily bring about humility.

And why does it spirit of God bring one person to True humility, while another rebels all the more, and refuses the Spirits work?
If there's a mystery to Salvation that's it right there. The mystery is not with what God wills. He wills for all to come to repentence.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

And why does it spirit of God bring one person to True humility, while another rebels all the more, and refuses the Spirits work?

Good question for the semi-palagian and palagian for the Wesleyan and the Arminian. The Calvinist answer is really quite simple; all sinners can do nothing but resist and refuse the work of the Spirit according to the desires of their sinful nature. So unless God performs a supernatural work of regeneration in the heart, mind, and soul, the sinner will rebel all the more. No boasting for the Calvinist, all glory to God alone.

If there's a mystery to Salvation that's it right there. The mystery is not with what God wills. He wills for all to come to repentence.

Yes all of the elect in Christ. The mystery of the will of God is more in the "problem" of evil, and the purposes of God in allowing it, and the extent to which He allows without intervention. Anyone whom has ever seriously taken on the problem of evil, knows what I am referring to. It's not a subject to be taken lightly or flippantly, I credit this approach to the late Dr. Ronald Nash and his pre-recorded lectures on the subject that I listened to quite a few years ago. Even in cases where the problem of evil may be settled on an intellectual level, there is an emotional level for which the head knowledge may not address the heart or bring peace to the person experiencing storms of evil invading around about them. One may judge them and blame their struggles for sin in their lives as Jobs friends did, but look around and where but Heaven do we find any sinless ones? One may flippantly tell them to just pray about it, and God does listen, but how He answers or if He answers, may be quite different from our will. His ways are not our ways. So at times we may be left with little more than the suffering question of "why?".

 

[Loren T.]

Good question for the semi-palagian and palagian for the Wesleyan and the Arminian. The Calvinist answer is really quite simple; all sinners can do nothing but resist and refuse the work of the Spirit according to the desires of their sinful nature. So unless God performs a supernatural work of regeneration in the heart, mind, and soul, the sinner will rebel all the more. No boasting for the Calvinist, all glory to God alone.

Except that you left out a lot. Like God hating most people, therefore not bothering to regenerate them. Rendering John 3:16 as "God hated most of the world so that he gave his son for a select few he decided he loved." And there is no boasting for the Arminian, because he does not save himself, he just doesn't resist God's grace. And we agree that God does a supernatural work to open mens eyes, we just don't agree that it is irresistable.

 

[sdowney717]

Good question for the semi-palagian and palagian for the Wesleyan and the Arminian. The Calvinist answer is really quite simple; all sinners can do nothing but resist and refuse the work of the Spirit according to the desires of their sinful nature. So unless God performs a supernatural work of regeneration in the heart, mind, and soul, the sinner will rebel all the more. No boasting for the Calvinist, all glory to God alone.



Yes all of the elect in Christ. The mystery of the will of God is more in the "problem" of evil, and the purposes of God in allowing it, and the extent to which He allows without intervention. Anyone whom has ever seriously taken on the problem of evil, knows what I am referring to. It's not a subject to be taken lightly or flippantly, I credit this approach to the late Dr. Ronald Nash and his pre-recorded lectures on the subject that I listened to quite a few years ago. Even in cases where the problem of evil may be settled on an intellectual level, there is an emotional level for which the head knowledge may not address the heart or bring peace to the person experiencing storms of evil invading around about them. One may judge them and blame their struggles for sin in their lives as Jobs friends did, but look around and where but Heaven do we find any sinless ones? One may flippantly tell them to just pray about it, and God does listen, but how He answers or if He answers, may be quite different from our will. His ways are not our ways. So at times we may be left with little more than the suffering question of "why?".

Evil exists to be overcome by the elect.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=NKJV&quicksearch=overcome&begin=47&end=73

Our personal trials exist so that at the revelation of Christ at the end of our faith will be for praises and honor to God that we overcame the world by our faith. It is part of our salvation to be delivered from evil, from the wicked one.

1 Peter 1
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

And Christ through His church demonstrates the wisdom of God. Christ make an open spoil of the wicked one, of principalities and powers, triumphing over them, and we also are to be overcomers, and we are by our faith in God and Christ.

Colossians 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Ephesians 3:8-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
Purpose of the Mystery
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the [d]principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. 13 Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Except that you left out a lot. Like God hating most people, therefore not bothering to regenerate them. Rendering John 3:16 as "God hated most of the world so that he gave his son for a select few he decided he loved." And there is no boasting for the Arminian, because he does not save himself, he just doesn't resist God's grace. And we agree that God does a supernatural work to open mens eyes, we just don't agree that it is irresistable.

Yeah, about that word "world", since the translated word is in English, let's look at meanings of the term from an older English dictionary like Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary:

WORLD, n. [This seems to be a compound word, and probably is named from roundness, the vault; but this is not certain.]
1. The universe; the whole system of created globes or vast bodies of matter.
2. The earth; the terraqueous globe; sometimes called the lower world.
3. The heavens; as when we speak of the heavenly world, or upper world.
4. System of beings; or the orbs which occupy space, and all the beings which inhabit them. Heb 11.
God--hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things; by whom also he made the worlds. Heb 1.
There may be other worlds, where the inhabitants have never violated their allegiance to their Almighty sovereign.
5. Present state of existence; as while we are in the world.
Behold, these are the ungodly who prosper in the world. Psa 73.
6. A secular life. By the world we sometimes understand the things of this world, its pleasures and interests. A great part of mankind are more anxious to enjoy the world to than secure divine favor.
7. Public life, or society; as banished from the world.
8. Business or trouble of life.
From this world-wearied flesh.
9. A great multitude or quantity; as a world of business; a world of charms.
10. Mankind; people in general; in an indefinite sense. Let the world see your fortitude.
Whose disposition, all the world well knows--
11. Course of life. He begins the world with little property, but with many friends.
12. Universal empire.
This through the east just vengeance hurld, and lost poor Antony the world.
13. The customs and manners of men; the practice of life. A knowledge of the world is necessary for a man of business; it is essential to politeness.
14. All the world contains.
Had I a thousand worlds, I would give them all for one year more to devote to God.
15. The principal nations or countries of the earth. Alexander conquered the world.
16. The Roman empire.
17. A large tract of country; a wide compass of things.
I must descry new worlds.
18. The inhabitants of the earth; the whole human race. John 3.
19. The carnal state or corruption of the earth; as the present evil world; the course of this world. Gal 1. Eph 2.
20. The ungodly part of the world.
I pray not for the world, but for them that thou hast given men. John 17.
21. Time; as in the phrase, world without end.
22. A collection of wonders. [Not in use.]

As you can see, the world "world" can have many different meanings. "Jews and Gentiles" and "all races of men" seem to fit the context best by way of generality. The context of "whosoever believes" is a limited quantity of "all races of men" and v.18 is also crucial to the point made here.

 

[childeye 2]

Indeed. If you choose atheism, God is not going to override that choice. That is what Dr Ferris meant by holding it sacred.

Respectfully, apart from God, there is no other power that overrides the will of the flesh.


I do not have a free will to choose atheism anymore than an atheist has a free will to choose believing in God. I could never choose atheism even because the knowledge of God overrides the ignorance of God. I have read the testimonies of former atheists who have become believers through the revelation of Christ. The Gospel Truth was able to override their prior conviction. The Holy Spirit does do this.

BUT, the consequences of that choice are entirely on yourself.

To me, this is the core sentiment behind free will theology; That we take full responsibility for our actions. That sentiment sounds appealing until it becomes a source for the blame, contempt, and condemnation of others, as well as pride and self righteousness in one's own self. We see these same sentiments in the scriptures proceeding from the mouths of the Pharisees.


When we consider that according to scripture, we are all guilty of being weak and deceived through the carnal vanity of being made flesh, then we must re-evaluate just how much we should hold others responsible for being weak and deceived in the flesh. Particularly when we know that it is God that delivered us from our own slavery to sin. This is why it makes sense that we are to be judged according to what measure we use to judge others, and why the merciful will receive mercy.

 

[Loren T.]

As you can see, the world "world" can have many different meanings. "Jews and Gentiles" and "all races of men" seem to fit the context best by way of generality. The context of "whosoever believes" is a limited quantity of "all races of men" and

There is no "whosoever" in calvinism.
Imagine this: When picking sides for my baseball team, I'm asked who I want for my side and I say: " Whosoever will" and then when people volunteer, I say: "Wait! Isn't it obvious that I meant I only want Jim, John, and Mary on my team?"
"But you said whosoever." They protest.
"And thats exactly what I meant. Whosoever. As long as it's Jim , John and Mary."
I think people would rightly conclude I was making no sense.

 

[DeaconDean]

There is no "whosoever" in calvinism.
Imagine this: When picking sides for my baseball team, I'm asked who I want for my side and I say: " Whosoever will" and then when people volunteer, I say: "Wait! Isn't it obvious that I meant I only want Jim, John, and Mary on my team?"
"But you said whosoever." They protest.
"And thats exactly what I meant. Whosoever. As long as it's Jim , John and Mary."
I think people would rightly conclude I was making no sense.

Show me "whosoever will" from the OT.

Fact is, according to OT scriptures, there was no "whosoever will". If you were not of the Hebrews, you were cut off from not only the blessings of God, but from Him as well.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Anto9us]

Enoch was not of the Hebrews, and was translated early.

Gen 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.


The promise to Abraham was that through him, ALL NATIONS of the earth would be blessed.

 

[DeaconDean]

Enoch was not of the Hebrews, and was translated early.

Gen 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.


The promise to Abraham was that through him, ALL NATIONS of the earth would be blessed.

Technically, if you want to get that way, there were no Hebrews until much later.

The Hebrews came through Jacob.

But that still does not change the fact, that when Moses came down from Mt. Sinai, the Decalogue and Torah was specifically for those:

"I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage." -Deut. 5:6 (KJV)

Who came out of Egypt and out of bondage?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Anto9us]

Israel came out of Egypt -- so did Jesus.

Hos 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Mat 2:14
When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

 

[DeaconDean]

Israel came out of Egypt -- so did Jesus.

Hos 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

John Gill comments:

"Hosea 11:1

When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him
Or, "for Israel [was] a child" F21; a rebellious and disobedient one, therefore his king was cut off in a morning, and he has been, and will be, without a king many days; yet still "I loved him": or, "though Israel [was] a child" F23; a weak, helpless, foolish, and imprudent one, "yet I loved him": or, "when a child"; in the infancy of his civil and church state, when in Egypt, and in the wilderness; the Lord loved him, not only as his creature, as he does all the works of his hands, but with a more special love than he loved others; choosing them to be a special people above all others; giving them his law, his statutes, and his judgments, his word and his worship, which he did not give to other nations. So he loves spiritual and mystical Israel, all the elect of God, whether Jews or Gentiles, when children, as soon as born, and though born in sin, carnal and corrupt; yea, before they are born, and when having done neither good nor evil; and so may be expressive both of the earliness and antiquity of his love to them, and of the freeness of it, without any merits or motives of theirs; and called my son out of Egypt,
not literal Israel, as before, whom God called his son, and his firstborn, and demanded his dismission from Pharaoh, and called him, and brought him out of Egypt with a mighty hand and outstretched arm; and which was a type of his calling spiritual Israel, his adopted sons, out of worse than Egyptian bondage and darkness: but his own natural and only begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ; for these words are expressly said to be fulfilled in him, ( Matthew 2:15 ) ; not by way of allusion; or by accommodation of phrases; or as the type is fulfilled in the antitype; or as a proverbial expression, adapted to any deliverance; but literally: the first and only sense of the words respects Christ, who in his infancy was had to Egypt for shelter from Herod's rage and fury, and, when he was dead, and those that sought the life of Jesus, he was by an angel of the Lord, warning Joseph of it, called out of Egypt, and brought into Judea, ( Matthew 2:19-23 ) ; and this as a proof of the love of God to Israel; which as it was expressed to him in his infancy, it continued and appeared in various instances, more or less unto the coming of Christ; who, though obliged for a while to go into Egypt, must not continue there, but must be called from thence, to be brought up in the land of Judea; to do his miracles, preach his doctrines, and do good to the bodies and souls of men there, being sent particularly to the lost sheep of the house of Israel; and, above all, in order to work out the salvation and redemption of his special people among them, and of the whole Israel of God everywhere else; which is the greatest instance of love to them, and to the world of the Gentiles, that ever was known, ( John 3:16 ) ( 1 John 2:2 ) ( 1 John 4:9 1 John 4:10 ) "

Source

Mat 2:14
When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Not quite good enough.

Where was Jesus born?

Bethlehem, in Nazareth. (Don't that make Jesus a Jew/Hebrew?)

And your right, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus fled to Egypt.

But:

"my son out of Egypt:
who through a tyrant's rage and malice will be obliged to abide there a while; yet I will bring him from thence into the land of Judea, where he shall live and "help" my "servant", (paidov), "child Israel"; shall instruct him in his duty, teach him the doctrines of the Gospel, and at last, by his sufferings and death, procure for him the pardon of all his transgressions; of which there is a particular enumeration in ( Matthew 2:3 Matthew 2:4 Matthew 2:5 Matthew 2:6 Matthew 2:7 ) . This is the natural and unconstrained sense of these words, which justifies the Evangelist in his citation and application of them to Christ's going to Egypt, and his return from thence, as I have elsewhere shown."

Source

Either way, there was no "whosoever will" in the OT.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Loren T.]

Show me "whosoever will" from the OT.

Fact is, according to OT scriptures, there was no "whosoever will". If you were not of the Hebrews, you were cut off from not only the blessings of God, but from Him as well.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Actually this is not the case.
[F]or when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ (Romans 2:14-16).

Why do you assume there were no Gentiles saved in the OT?
What about the Ninevites? Rahab? Ruth?

 

[Anto9us]

Of course, Jesus was a Jew, born in Bethlehem, as prophesied by Micah.

Bethlehem, in Nazareth

Nazareth was in Gallilee.
Bethlehem in Israel (Judah).

Born in Bethlehem, went to Nazareth after being 'called out of Egypt'.

 

[Anto9us]

Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I AM".

And His priesthood is of the order of Melchisidek, to whom Abraham paid tithes.

Melchisedek was a non-Hebrew also.

 

[DeaconDean]

Actually this is not the case.
[F]or when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ (Romans 2:14-16).

Why do you assume there were no Gentiles saved in the OT?
What about the Ninevites? Rahab? Ruth?

I never said there wasn't any saved.

But by the same token, show me "whosoever will" from the OT.

You ignore the question.

And, as I said previously:

If you were not of the Hebrews, you were cut off from not only the blessings of God, but from Him as well.

You had to convert to being a Hebrew just like Ruth.

Rahab did God a favor and God showed grace to her.

The Ninevites were used as an example for Jesus in the New Testament.

So, sorry, your answer is non-sequitur.

Again, don't give the run-around. Show me "whosoever will" in the Old Testament.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Of course, Jesus was a Jew, born in Bethlehem, as prophesied by Micah.

Yes

Nazareth was in Gallilee.
Bethlehem in Israel (Judah).

Born in Bethlehem, went to Nazareth after being 'called out of Egypt'.

And was not Nazrareth, in Gallilee, with Gallilee part of the original land given to the tribe of Dan?

So we agree, Jesus was a Jew.

At the time of His birth, there was no "Manasseh" and "Judea".

Point made.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Loren T.]

You had to convert to being a Hebrew just like Ruth.

Rahab did God a favor and God showed grace to her.

The Ninevites were used as an example for Jesus in the New Testament.

You contradict yourself. The Ninevites were not converts to being Hebrew.