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Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by JerseyChristianSuperstar, Jun 26, 2018.

  1. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Who was it that brought "whosoever" into this?

    Me?

    Lets see here...

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  2. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    With all due respect, that is the same thing Catholicism says.

    From AD 33, until today, the Catholic church has perfectly maintained all the teachings down for 2 millennia.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  3. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    So it seems, you were incorrect. It was you who brought into this the "whosoever" and "whosoever will" argument.

    And, it seems you not only have a problem with Calvinism, but with the doctrine of election in general.

    The doctrine of "election" (God's sovereign choosing) can be traced all the way back to what He Himself said.

    "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt." -Deut. 7:6-8 (KJV)

    That is pure election.

    So if you have a problem with that, then I suggest you take it up with God and the scriptures.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  4. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    I know I brought up whosoever.
    I didn't say you brought up whosoever. I said:
    "And brought up the Old Testament which we weren't even talking about.."

    Who said I have a problem with God choosing Israel? Not me. Let's try to actually stay on topic. Which is individual election of people for salvation. The Jews were elected, but did all of them follow God? Were all saved? And now God makes the Gentiles his people. Do all become saved? Nope. Election to salvation in the OT and New is by faith.
     
  5. KarateCowboy

    KarateCowboy Islam is right about women

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    I know. It's just a little weird to think that Calvin and Luther could set up a lasting church with stable doctrine, but not Peter and Paul.
     
  6. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Can you show me "Election to salvation in the OT"?

    The only verse I know of that even hints of "election unto salvation" is 2 Thess. 2:13.

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

    Election in the OT is nothing more than God saying "I have chosen you,". There was no promise of salvation just because they were chosen, otherwise there would have been no need for the Torah.

    Jesus sets forth the same principle in the Gospels:

    "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," -Jn. 15:16 (KJV)

    But all that is "smoke and mirrors" according to those who don't agree with Calvinist theology.

    My biggest problem with Arminian theology, is the "I" principle its so well known for.

    No matter how small. No matter how insignificant it might be, according to Arminian theology, man has to claim some part, no matter how small or insignificant, in bring about his own salvation.

    I cite:

    "ARMINIANISM is a teaching regarding salvation associated with the Dutch theologian Jacob Arminius (1560-1609). The fundamental principle in Arminianism is the rejection of predestination, and a corresponding affirmation of the freedom of the human will.

    Philip Schaff in his Creeds of Christendom gives a very full discussion of the Arminian controversy, and although he is not entirely in sympathy with the articles of Dort, he rightly observes that "Calvinism represented the consistent, logical, conservative orthodoxy; Arminianism an elastic, progressive, changing liberalism." (1) He sums it up well when he describes Arminianism as a "moderated semi-Pelagianism" (2) Semi-Pelagianism was an ancient heresy which held that man out of his own free will takes the first step in salvation, and is then assisted by God. The Arminians merely reverse the order, saying that man must respond out of his own free will after God first prompts him with "prevenient grace." In both, the decisive thing is the will of man, not the will or decree of God."

    1. The Creeds of Christendom, with a History and Critical Notes, sixth edition (New York, 1931), vol. 1, p. 509.

    2. ibid., p. 516. Defenders of Arminianism have raised objections against this use of the term Semi-Pelagianism as a description of their doctrine, but these objections have no more merit than the objections of Roman Catholic writers when Protestants describe the doctrines enforced at the Council of Trent as a species of Semi-Pelagianism. Cf. the Presbyterian theologian Charles Hodge, who writes: "It is an undeniable fact of history ... that in the Latin Church, Augustinianism, including all the characteristic doctrines of what is now called Calvinism, was declared to be the true faith by council after council, provincial and general, and by bishops and popes. Soon, however, Augustinianism lost its ascendency. For seven or eight centuries no one form of doctrine concerning sin, grace, and predestination prevailed in the Latin Church. Augustinianism, Semi-Pelagianism, and Mysticism (equally irreconcilable with both), were in constant conflict; and that, too, on questions on which the Church had already pronounced its judgment. It was not until the beginning of the sixteenth century that the Council of Trent, after long conflict within itself, gave its sanction to a modified form of Semi-Pelagianism." (Systematic Theology, vol. 1 [New York: Charles Scribner and Co., 1871], p. 124.) Pelagianism and its (largely cosmetic) modifications seems to be a perennial heresy that keeps springing up in different times and places whenever it can find an opening; and, if it is not rooted out, it flourishes and eventually chokes out the biblical teaching on salvation. As it happened in Judaism in ancient times, and in Roman Catholicism during the middle ages, so also it has now happened in the Protestant denominations. The "five points of Calvinism" were designed to suppress it when it recrudesced in Reformed churches during the seventeenth century.

    Source

    And no matter what, there is at least one verse in the Old Testament that tears up the Arminian argument to shreds.

    "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee," -Psa. 65:4 (KJV)

    Argument over!

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  7. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    I know I'll get bashed for it, but I believe every church should have both a Peter and Paul in them. :D

    The actions of both men, we could learn a lot from.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  8. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    The New Testament explains the old.
    Hebrews 11
     
  9. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Um, how is this helpful to your position? I agree, they were not individually chosen for salvation, they needed to learn from God as Jesus says in John 10. That's why they had the Torah. And they had to have faith, as Paul says, most of them missed it, by relying on works instead. In the same way, in the New Testament, God now calls a people who were not his, his. The gentiles, as a people, like the Jews are chosen, but individually they do not all choose salvation. Those that do are chosen for salvation because of their faith.
     
  10. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Seriously? There is nothing whatsoever deterministic about this verse, when read in context. A Universalist could just as easily pull out this verse, and say that all people will be saved.;
    2 You who answer prayer,
    to you all people will come.

    This is a dishonest tactic that Calvinists use constantly, to rip a verse or a bunch of verses out of context and try and make them say something they don't ,when read as the Bible should be read, not in sound bites, but in whole passages.


    Praise awaits you, our God, in Zion;
    to you our vows will be fulfilled.
    2 You who answer prayer,
    to you all people will come.
    3 When we were overwhelmed by sins,
    you forgave[c] our transgressions.
    4 Blessed are those you choose
    and bring near to live in your courts!
    We are filled with the good things of your house,
    of your holy temple.
     
  11. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Wrong again.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  12. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    That is one of the most God dishonoring doctrines ever produced.

    Man/woman were chosen "because of their faith".

    That is a works based salvation, plain and simple. There is no grace involved. And that, is what Arminianism is all about.

    God Bless

    Till all are one
     
  13. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Here is where you guys get it wrong all the time.

    Have you ever been taught English grammar?

    In the Hebrew, just like the English, there are verbs that are classified as "causative".

    "ד דִּבְרֵי עֲוֺנֹת, גָּבְרוּ מֶנִּי; פְּשָׁעֵינוּ, אַתָּה תְכַפְּרֵם." -Psa. 65:4 (Hebrew)

    "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." -Psa. 65:4 (KJV)

    In the Hebrew, our word for "causest" is "וּתְקָרֵב֮" (ū-ṯə-qā-rêḇ).

    In the Hebrew, it is "Conj-w | V-Piel-ConjImperf-2ms".

    It is God, and God alone that is "causing" the action. Not man working with God, not man "co-operating" with God, but God and God sovereignly causing man to approach Him. A causative verb.

    "Causative verbs are verbs that show the reason that something happened. They do not indicate something the subject did for themselves, but something the subject got someone or something else to do for them."

    Source

    They didn't come to God on their own, God "caused" them to approach them.

    No, I have done my research. I have studied my Hebrew.

    What's worse than what you accuse Calvinists of is you of the Arminian faith, stealing what is God's. Claiming for your own, something He did/does.

    Psa. 65:4 and Jn. 6:44 say the same thing.

    If it wasn't for God, you wouldn't come to Him at all!

    You accuse us of twisting scripture, "to rip a verse or a bunch of verses out of context and try and make them say something they don't," when in fact, we/I have studied in the original languages, know what they say, and still get accused of these tactics. Fact is, the truth don't match Arminain theology, so one tactic Arminians use is to accuse us twisting scripture. When in fact, we give all credit to God, while Arminianism claims some credit for themselves.

    Do your research. Something I don't see you doing.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  14. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Because God make salvation conditional, somehow God's grace is not involved? Nonsense. Makes one wonder why Jesus commended people for their faith if he was just zapping some with faith and passing by others. Faith is not a work, read Romans.
     
  15. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I totally agree. It's called conviction or the technical term is prevenient grace. It's the Holy Spirit's working in a person prior to salvation. In some cases, the person submits and is saved in other cases, he resists and is not. We have all experienced this.
     
  16. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    I'm a Christian, who has a big problem with man made doctrines such as Calvinism or Arminian/ semi-Pelagian soteriology espoused by non-Calvinists, be they Methodists, Roman Catholics, Orthodoxy believers, Assemblies of God folks.


    Here is the truth -

    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



    Here is the lie of Calvinism -


    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever is predestined for salvation should not perish but have everlasting life.



    You choose what to believe.




    JLB
     
  17. Bobber

    Bobber Well-Known Member

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    As for me I'm not a fan people going to the Greek/Hebrew with everything claiming they have expertise in such. Now I go to the greek and hebrew as well but if everyone is seeking to build their case this way it can be pretty deceptive as people are biased and if people force their interpretations using English they most certainly will do the same with these other languages. Only difference is the poor ignorant soul who isn't up on deep study into such can be so very easily be swayed in a most unfair way.
     
  18. Sound Doctrine

    Sound Doctrine Endure Sound Doctrine Supporter

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    “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.” - Romans 8:28-33.

    Ephesians 1:1-12 - 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
    2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4
    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
    8
    Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
    9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
    11
    In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    12
    That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.”

    This epistle is written to the saints, those who are able to hear and understand the truth, not to everybody. Remember that the term “us” refers to the elect - the saints, as by definition unbelievers are not going to care about what is taught in the Bible. Since these verses cover some other ground as well, I will start at the beginning and work my way down. Verses 4-5 explain that God has chosen His elect from the foundation of the world, and predestinated us… why? To the good pleasure of His will, “to the praise of the glory of His grace…”

    In verse 10, dispensation of the fulness of times is the eschatological movement through time of God’s plan including the end times and the end of the world on into eternity. As verse 11 also says, who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will, God is doing His plan. There is no teaching of free will salvation, since it is diametrically opposed to Scripture.
     
  19. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    I doubt this psalm was meant as a soteriology lesson, but it's interesting that it confirms, first, that the extent of the atonement is to all flesh, and then confirms that God brings people to him. Calvinist claim the atonement is limited to a select few and that God only draws those few.
     
  20. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Same here about 'us', Us is not the unbelieving world, Us are those God has saved and called.

    We were given, to us was given our purpose before time began to be His own special possession. Which means we were predestined individually according to His purpose, not according to our works, so predestination is not based on foreseen faith. Meaning God does not look thru a time tunnel to see who will believe and then predestine them based on what they did in a future life that had not yet been lived.

    2 Timothy 1:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
    8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

    And

    Titus 1:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Greeting
    1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;
     
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