Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

[Dan the deacon]

Esau kinda aced himself out, BradB, sold his birthright for a bowl of stew. Jacob was scared of him for 20 years, but when they finally met up again, Esau had not held a grudge, and as you say, his people had blessings of their own.

Have you read the story? Esau did not sell it. Jacob stole his birthright with a lie.

 

[Anto9us]

exchanged his birthright, then, Jacob did the 'selling' of the stew/pottage, Esau bought it with his birthright

Gen 25:29
And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:

Gen 25:30
And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

Gen 25:31
And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.

Gen 25:32
And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

Gen 25:33
And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

Gen 25:34
Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

 

[Anto9us]

The "outright trickery" of Jacob was in getting the BLESSING -- Esau had already sold his birthright by then...

Gen 27:15
And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which were with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son:

Gen 27:16
And she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck:

Gen 27:17
And she gave the savoury meat and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.

Gen 27:18
And he came unto his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I; who art thou, my son?

Gen 27:19
And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.

Of course Jacob outright lied to his feeble father

 

[Dan the deacon]

exchanged his birthright, then, Jacob did the 'selling' of the stew/pottage, Esau bought it with his birthright

Gen 25:29
And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:

Gen 25:30
And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

Gen 25:31
And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.

Gen 25:32
And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

Gen 25:33
And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

Gen 25:34
Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

It was not yet his to sell. Jacob deceived his father and thereby stole it with the help.of his mother and a bit of fur on his forearm.

 

[Anto9us]

Gen 27:21
And Isaac said unto Jacob, Come near, I pray thee, that I may feel thee, my son, whether thou be my very son Esau or not.

Gen 27:22
And Jacob went near unto Isaac his father; and he felt him, and said, The voice is Jacob's voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau.

Gen 27:23
And he discerned him not, because his hands were hairy, as his brother Esau's hands: so he blessed him.

Gen 27:24
And he said, Art thou my very son Esau? And he said, I am.

...

Gen 27:34
And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father.

Gen 27:35
And he said, Thy brother came with subtilty, and hath taken away thy blessing.

Gen 27:36
And he said, Is not he rightly named Jacob? for he hath supplanted me these two times: he took away my birthright; and, behold, now he hath taken away my blessing. And he said, Hast thou not reserved a blessing for me?


Jacob means heel-catcher, supplanter, cheater, etc...

 

[Anto9us]

He sold his birthright; Jacob stole his blessing.

The birthright he sold of his own free will, in the matter of blessing he was TRICKED by his mom and his brother.

 

[Anto9us]

It was not yet his to sell. Jacob deceived his father and thereby stole it with the help.of his mother and a bit of fur on his forearm.

The birthright was Esau's to 'sell', or exchange for the food. He was not tricked about that -- he was just stupid -- getting so hungry on one hunting trip that he had to eat right away. No trickery involved at all, a conscious disregard of his birthright.

The blessing he was tricked about, by Jacob in collusion with their Mom.

 

[Anto9us]

New Testament confirms Esau sold his birthright...

Heb 12:16
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

 

[Anto9us]

The fact that God expressed this doesn't mean that Esau didn't have a free will, just that God foreknew how he would use it.

Yep.

We now return you to the Arminian-bashing of the OP.

 

[John tower]

Funny - I have said the same thing about Calvinism.

But both suffer from the same illogic. (or to be more precise, the SAME wrong logic framework)

So they tie for a fail on that point.

As to unbiblical, Calvinism denies freedom of choice; and yet we are told over and over in scripture to "choose."

On that point, Arminianism wins hands down.

John 15(16) : Christ speaking : argue with him

 

[John tower]

Yep.

We now return you to the Arminian-bashing of the OP.

If someone really has a free will , there is no possible way to foreknow what he will do , or it is not free will , even for God !

 

[John tower]

I'm a Calvinist, who has a big problem with the Arminian/ semi-Pelagian soteriology espoused by non-Calvinists, be they Methodists, Roman Catholics, Orthodoxy believers, Assemblies of God folks, etc.

ILLOGICAL

Let's start with these propositions.

1. God is the all-powerful Creator of us all.
2. God is all-wise; He does not make mistakes.
3. God is all-knowing.

Taken together, this means that God knowingly, willingly and deliberately creates billions of people who He knows will suffer eternal agony and torment in the fires of Hell, He creates the reprobate with full knowledge of their eternal fate beforehand.

And according to the non-Calvinist, God desires the salvation of every single human being who lives and ever will live without exception.

But why would an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God created the souls of billions of people that He knows fully well, before He even creates them, will reject His Son Jesus as Savior, and die in their sins and be consigned to everlasting torment in a fiery dungeon, Hell, if that were the case?

Does He create them in the hopes that they will believe on Him? Obviously not, because He is omniscient, has perfect, infallible knowledge, and has always known that they will not believe on Him. By creating the souls of these people with perfect knowledge they will never believe, that means that He is essentially sealing their fate by the mere act of creating them.

So it makes no sense to say that He truly desires their salvation when He intentionally creates them in such circumstances with the knowledge that they will never believe.

UNBIBLICAL


The Bible makes it crystal-clear that the reason why we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel is because God the Father determines beforehand that we will, He predestines us to be Christians and holy and have refuge under His Son. Repentance is something God grants us, it's a gift, so is our faith. It also teaches double predestination.

2 Timothy 2:25 - in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nation.

Acts 13:48 - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. [Probably the best Calvinist verse: we are appointed to eternal life, and then we believe the Gospel, not the other way around. God chooses, elects ordains us to life everlasting, and then we believe. Really goes with Ephesians and Romans 9:11]

Ephesians 1:4-5 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 - In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Galatians 1:15 - But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,

2 Timothy 1:8-9 - Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9:11 - (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Romans 9:21-23
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Now, non-Calvinists will often point to small prooftexts in order to prove that Jesus died and paid for the sins of every single person who lives in the world without exception, using verses such as 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, where the words "whole world" or "all men" are used, and it says God desires "all men" to be saved.

If you quote the whole of 2 Peter 3 instead of that one verse, you'll see it's talking about a definite group, not every single person in the world without exception:

2 Peter 3:1-9
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The author is talking about as specific group here; namely, born-again believers in Jesus Christ, of which he is a part, "you" the "beloved", "us". When he says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should repent, it also says that He is longsuffering toward "us", and the us is referring to the elect, to believers, it's not referring to every single human being in the world. God is not willing that any of *us* should perish, any of the believers in His Son Jesus Christ. The passage is directed to the elect, God's chosen children.


But when read in context, it is clear that when it says all men, it is referring to all men without distinction, men from every social status, ethnic group, and nation. Jesus paid for the sins of all types of people from every race, economic wealth, etc. The following verse exemplifies this:

Revelation 5:9 -
And they sang a new song, saying:

"You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,"

“I got home late last night to find that someone had eaten all the cookies.”

“The mother told her child that she expected all the dishes to be washed.”

“There’s a guy in my office that talks about politics all the time.”

Obviously, we all the common sense to realize that the people are not saying that every single dish that exists on planet Earth, or every cookie that exists, was eaten by the child or washed by the child.

Scripture must mesh with other Scripture. And other Scripture makes it clear that God died for a definite group of people and predestines people to salvation, others to damnation.

We evangelize because God has ordained the means as well as the ends, because faith comes by hearing.

I prefer not to call it calvinism , but what it is in truth : BIBLEISM !! I don't wish to exalt calvin , and I am sure he would wish the same ! Of all doctrines , calvinism is the one that would never give credit to any man !!

 

[Dave-W]

If someone really has a free will , there is no possible way to foreknow what he will do , or it is not free will , even for God !

That assumes that God is subject to time. He is not.

 

[1am3laine]

I talk about the Esau and Jacob birthright on this link below

http://master-elaine.blogspot.com/2018/07/jacob-esau-birthright-story-explained.html

 

[Bobber]

Yes and no.
However, Calvinism affirms that God is so magnificent that any true apprehension of God would immediately yield repentance. If a person truly sees God for who He is then they cannot but repent. God's grace - his revelation of himself - is irresistible because God is so beautiful. So those who, in the end, deny God have never truly apprehended him.

No can't accept that. Jesus said the following,

And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. John 3:19

There's no indication here they saw less light or not enough to appreciate him. It says rather they just loved darkness .

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

No can't accept that. Jesus said the following,

And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. John 3:19

There's no indication here they saw less light or not enough to appreciate him. It says rather they just loved darkness .

John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

No can't accept that. Jesus said the following,

And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. John 3:19

There's no indication here they saw less light or not enough to appreciate him. It says rather they just loved darkness .

John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

 

[Bobber]

John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The greek word for comprehend is καταλαμβάνω which also means to lay hold of, or to seize.

Definintion according to Strongs also means to seize tight, of arrest, catch, capture and appropriate.

As you can see with a great many translations it uses the statement, "darkness has not overcome it" (being the light)

NIV, NLT, ESV, BSB, CSB, HCSB, WNT,WEB, ABPE, all have it down as "overcome".

Even the King James 2000 swings it back as "overcome" instead of comprehend.

Other translations have it down as the darkness could not extinguish the light, and others that darkness could not put the light out. So I believe my statement stands....there's nothing to show those in darkness didn't see enough light to appreciate him. It wouldn't matter how much light they saw....they loved their darkness because their deeds were evil.

 

[Bobber]

nil

 

[Bobber]

repeat

 

[Anto9us]

Arminianism ROCKS !!

Those who don't believe in it do so OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL !!

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

So I believe my statement stands....there's nothing to show those in darkness didn't see enough light to appreciate him. It wouldn't matter how much light they saw....they loved their darkness because their deeds were evil.

Mattthew 13:14 “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

Mattthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

So I believe my statement stands....there's nothing to show those in darkness didn't see enough light to appreciate him. It wouldn't matter how much light they saw....they loved their darkness because their deeds were evil.

Mattthew 13:14 “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

Mattthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.