Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

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JerseyChristianSuperstar

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I'm a Calvinist, who has a big problem with the Arminian/ semi-Pelagian soteriology espoused by non-Calvinists, be they Methodists, Roman Catholics, Orthodoxy believers, Assemblies of God folks, etc.

ILLOGICAL

Let's start with these propositions.

1. God is the all-powerful Creator of us all.
2. God is all-wise; He does not make mistakes.
3. God is all-knowing.

Taken together, this means that God knowingly, willingly and deliberately creates billions of people who He knows will suffer eternal agony and torment in the fires of Hell, He creates the reprobate with full knowledge of their eternal fate beforehand.

And according to the non-Calvinist, God desires the salvation of every single human being who lives and ever will live without exception.

But why would an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God created the souls of billions of people that He knows fully well, before He even creates them, will reject His Son Jesus as Savior, and die in their sins and be consigned to everlasting torment in a fiery dungeon, Hell, if that were the case?

Does He create them in the hopes that they will believe on Him? Obviously not, because He is omniscient, has perfect, infallible knowledge, and has always known that they will not believe on Him. By creating the souls of these people with perfect knowledge they will never believe, that means that He is essentially sealing their fate by the mere act of creating them.

So it makes no sense to say that He truly desires their salvation when He intentionally creates them in such circumstances with the knowledge that they will never believe.

UNBIBLICAL


The Bible makes it crystal-clear that the reason why we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel is because God the Father determines beforehand that we will, He predestines us to be Christians and holy and have refuge under His Son. Repentance is something God grants us, it's a gift, so is our faith. It also teaches double predestination.

2 Timothy 2:25 - in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nation.

Acts 13:48 - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. [Probably the best Calvinist verse: we are appointed to eternal life, and then we believe the Gospel, not the other way around. God chooses, elects ordains us to life everlasting, and then we believe. Really goes with Ephesians and Romans 9:11]

Ephesians 1:4-5 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 - In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Galatians 1:15 - But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,

2 Timothy 1:8-9 - Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9:11 - (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Romans 9:21-23
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Now, non-Calvinists will often point to small prooftexts in order to prove that Jesus died and paid for the sins of every single person who lives in the world without exception, using verses such as 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, where the words "whole world" or "all men" are used, and it says God desires "all men" to be saved.

If you quote the whole of 2 Peter 3 instead of that one verse, you'll see it's talking about a definite group, not every single person in the world without exception:

2 Peter 3:1-9
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The author is talking about as specific group here; namely, born-again believers in Jesus Christ, of which he is a part, "you" the "beloved", "us". When he says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should repent, it also says that He is longsuffering toward "us", and the us is referring to the elect, to believers, it's not referring to every single human being in the world. God is not willing that any of *us* should perish, any of the believers in His Son Jesus Christ. The passage is directed to the elect, God's chosen children.


But when read in context, it is clear that when it says all men, it is referring to all men without distinction, men from every social status, ethnic group, and nation. Jesus paid for the sins of all types of people from every race, economic wealth, etc. The following verse exemplifies this:

Revelation 5:9 -
And they sang a new song, saying:

"You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,"

“I got home late last night to find that someone had eaten all the cookies.”

“The mother told her child that she expected all the dishes to be washed.”

“There’s a guy in my office that talks about politics all the time.”

Obviously, we all the common sense to realize that the people are not saying that every single dish that exists on planet Earth, or every cookie that exists, was eaten by the child or washed by the child.

Scripture must mesh with other Scripture. And other Scripture makes it clear that God died for a definite group of people and predestines people to salvation, others to damnation.

We evangelize because God has ordained the means as well as the ends, because faith comes by hearing.
 

MDC

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I'm a Calvinist, who has a big problem with the Arminian/ semi-Pelagian soteriology espoused by non-Calvinists, be they Methodists, Roman Catholics, Orthodoxy believers, Assemblies of God folks, etc.

ILLOGICAL

Let's start with these propositions.

1. God is the all-powerful Creator of us all.
2. God is all-wise; He does not make mistakes.
3. God is all-knowing.

Taken together, this means that God knowingly, willingly and deliberately creates billions of people who He knows will suffer eternal agony and torment in the fires of Hell, He creates the reprobate with full knowledge of their eternal fate beforehand.

And according to the non-Calvinist, God desires the salvation of every single human being who lives and ever will live without exception.

But why would an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God created the souls of billions of people that He knows fully well, before He even creates them, will reject His Son Jesus as Savior, and die in their sins and be consigned to everlasting torment in a fiery dungeon, Hell, if that were the case?

Does He create them in the hopes that they will believe on Him? Obviously not, because He is omniscient, has perfect, infallible knowledge, and has always known that they will not believe on Him. By creating the souls of these people with perfect knowledge they will never believe, that means that He is essentially sealing their fate by the mere act of creating them.

So it makes no sense to say that He truly desires their salvation when He intentionally creates them in such circumstances with the knowledge that they will never believe.

UNBIBLICAL


The Bible makes it crystal-clear that the reason why we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel is because God the Father determines beforehand that we will, He predestines us to be Christians and holy and have refuge under His Son. Repentance is something God grants us, it's a gift, so is our faith. It also teaches double predestination.

2 Timothy 2:25 - in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nation.

Acts 13:48 - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. [Probably the best Calvinist verse: we are appointed to eternal life, and then we believe the Gospel, not the other way around. God chooses, elects ordains us to life everlasting, and then we believe. Really goes with Ephesians and Romans 9:11]

Ephesians 1:4-5 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 - In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Galatians 1:15 - But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,

2 Timothy 1:8-9 - Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9:11 - (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Romans 9:21-23
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Now, non-Calvinists will often point to small prooftexts in order to prove that Jesus died and paid for the sins of every single person who lives in the world without exception, using verses such as 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, where the words "whole world" or "all men" are used, and it says God desires "all men" to be saved.

If you quote the whole of 2 Peter 3 instead of that one verse, you'll see it's talking about a definite group, not every single person in the world without exception:

2 Peter 3:1-9
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The author is talking about as specific group here; namely, born-again believers in Jesus Christ, of which he is a part, "you" the "beloved", "us". When he says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should repent, it also says that He is longsuffering toward "us", and the us is referring to the elect, to believers, it's not referring to every single human being in the world. God is not willing that any of *us* should perish, any of the believers in His Son Jesus Christ. The passage is directed to the elect, God's chosen children.


But when read in context, it is clear that when it says all men, it is referring to all men without distinction, men from every social status, ethnic group, and nation. Jesus paid for the sins of all types of people from every race, economic wealth, etc. The following verse exemplifies this:

Revelation 5:9 -
And they sang a new song, saying:

"You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,"

“I got home late last night to find that someone had eaten all the cookies.”

“The mother told her child that she expected all the dishes to be washed.”

“There’s a guy in my office that talks about politics all the time.”

Obviously, we all the common sense to realize that the people are not saying that every single dish that exists on planet Earth, or every cookie that exists, was eaten by the child or washed by the child.

Scripture must mesh with other Scripture. And other Scripture makes it clear that God died for a definite group of people and predestines people to salvation, others to damnation.

We evangelize because God has ordained the means as well as the ends, because faith comes by hearing.
Amen! Arminianism is nothing more than a smokescreen for full blown pelagianism
 
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συνείδησις

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Lol, not even close. Arminianism is not pelagian.

I don't think that even Pelagius was a pelagian. The victor writes history, and I suspect the gnostic-inclined Augustinians railroaded Pelagius, who aligned more with the earlier church fathers than Augustine did.
 
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JerseyChristianSuperstar

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Amen! Arminianism is nothing more than a smokescreen for full blown pelagianism
Thanks, Brother in Christ!

I mean, come on. An all-powerfull, all-wise, all-knowing God sent His Son into the world in an attempt to save every single human on the planet from suffering the torture of being literally burned for all eternity, ...an failed? Is such a god really omnipotent? The god of Arminianism is not.
 
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Dave-W

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Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical
Funny - I have said the same thing about Calvinism.

But both suffer from the same illogic. (or to be more precise, the SAME wrong logic framework)

So they tie for a fail on that point.

As to unbiblical, Calvinism denies freedom of choice; and yet we are told over and over in scripture to "choose."

On that point, Arminianism wins hands down.
 
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A_Thinker

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I'm a Calvinist, who has a big problem with the Arminian/ semi-Pelagian soteriology espoused by non-Calvinists, be they Methodists, Roman Catholics, Orthodoxy believers, Assemblies of God folks, etc.

ILLOGICAL

Let's start with these propositions.

1. God is the all-powerful Creator of us all.
2. God is all-wise; He does not make mistakes.
3. God is all-knowing.

Taken together, this means that God knowingly, willingly and deliberately creates billions of people who He knows will suffer eternal agony and torment in the fires of Hell, He creates the reprobate with full knowledge of their eternal fate beforehand.

And according to the non-Calvinist, God desires the salvation of every single human being who lives and ever will live without exception.

But why would an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God created the souls of billions of people that He knows fully well, before He even creates them, will reject His Son Jesus as Savior, and die in their sins and be consigned to everlasting torment in a fiery dungeon, Hell, if that were the case?

Does He create them in the hopes that they will believe on Him? Obviously not, because He is omniscient, has perfect, infallible knowledge, and has always known that they will not believe on Him. By creating the souls of these people with perfect knowledge they will never believe, that means that He is essentially sealing their fate by the mere act of creating them.

So it makes no sense to say that He truly desires their salvation when He intentionally creates them in such circumstances with the knowledge that they will never believe.

UNBIBLICAL


The Bible makes it crystal-clear that the reason why we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel is because God the Father determines beforehand that we will, He predestines us to be Christians and holy and have refuge under His Son. Repentance is something God grants us, it's a gift, so is our faith. It also teaches double predestination.

2 Timothy 2:25 - in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nation.

Acts 13:48 - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. [Probably the best Calvinist verse: we are appointed to eternal life, and then we believe the Gospel, not the other way around. God chooses, elects ordains us to life everlasting, and then we believe. Really goes with Ephesians and Romans 9:11]

Ephesians 1:4-5 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 - In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Galatians 1:15 - But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,

2 Timothy 1:8-9 - Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9:11 - (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Romans 9:21-23
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Now, non-Calvinists will often point to small prooftexts in order to prove that Jesus died and paid for the sins of every single person who lives in the world without exception, using verses such as 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, where the words "whole world" or "all men" are used, and it says God desires "all men" to be saved.

If you quote the whole of 2 Peter 3 instead of that one verse, you'll see it's talking about a definite group, not every single person in the world without exception:

2 Peter 3:1-9
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The author is talking about as specific group here; namely, born-again believers in Jesus Christ, of which he is a part, "you" the "beloved", "us". When he says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should repent, it also says that He is longsuffering toward "us", and the us is referring to the elect, to believers, it's not referring to every single human being in the world. God is not willing that any of *us* should perish, any of the believers in His Son Jesus Christ. The passage is directed to the elect, God's chosen children.


But when read in context, it is clear that when it says all men, it is referring to all men without distinction, men from every social status, ethnic group, and nation. Jesus paid for the sins of all types of people from every race, economic wealth, etc. The following verse exemplifies this:

Revelation 5:9 -
And they sang a new song, saying:

"You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,"

“I got home late last night to find that someone had eaten all the cookies.”

“The mother told her child that she expected all the dishes to be washed.”

“There’s a guy in my office that talks about politics all the time.”

Obviously, we all the common sense to realize that the people are not saying that every single dish that exists on planet Earth, or every cookie that exists, was eaten by the child or washed by the child.

Scripture must mesh with other Scripture. And other Scripture makes it clear that God died for a definite group of people and predestines people to salvation, others to damnation.

We evangelize because God has ordained the means as well as the ends, because faith comes by hearing.

Why is HOW God extends His salvation so critically vital to you ?

No writer of scripture makes such an emphasis.

Scripture is clear that "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord ... shall be saved." Romans 10:13, Acts 2:21

Remember Servetus ...
 
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Dave-W

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An all-powerfull, all-wise, all-knowing God sent His Son into the world in an attempt to save every single human on the planet from suffering the torture of being literally burned for all eternity, ...an failed? Is such a god really omnipotent?
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

The God of Calvinism could not predestine EVERYONE to salvation if that was what He willed? 2 Peter seems to be saying that. Not wanting any to perish. All to repent.

"All" means all. But if men love darkness rather than HIS light, they can choose to stay in the darkness. This Calvinism denies.
 
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Loren T.

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Calvinism is really just fate with God dealing the cards. No different at it's core than the Muslims "Allah wills it." Everything becomes God's will, every evil deed comes from his hand. It really makes God a dystopian control freak.
 
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Tree of Life

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Lol, not even close. Arminianism is not pelagian.

Pelagius taught that fallen man has enough virtue in his fallen condition to be able to repent of his sin and turn to God. Augustine and Calvin taught that man is so totally depraved that he is unable to turn from his sin and needs God to miraculously intervene and for God to give him new desires.

How is it that Arminianism is not Pelagian?
 
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Tree of Life

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"All" means all. But if men love darkness rather than HIS light, they can choose to stay in the darkness. This Calvinism denies.

Yes and no.

Calvinism does not teach that man is damned against his will or saved against his will. All who are saved are saved willingly - they willingly turn from sin and turn to God. All who go to damnation do so willingly in that they do not want to turn to God and would rather stay in their sin.

However, Calvinism affirms that God is so magnificent that any true apprehension of God would immediately yield repentance. If a person truly sees God for who He is then they cannot but repent. God's grace - his revelation of himself - is irresistible because God is so beautiful. So those who, in the end, deny God have never truly apprehended him.
 
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Tree of Life

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As to unbiblical, Calvinism denies freedom of choice; and yet we are told over and over in scripture to "choose."

On that point, Arminianism wins hands down.

Calvinism does not deny freedom of choice.
 
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Valetic

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I tend to believe that while God does know everything, and knew everything that would come about since the beginning, and since He set everything in motion and knew the path that everything would unfold in, He chose to create all creation in a way that, while we having free will, He would have a harvest of souls to walk in fellowship with Him, perfect, holy and spotless. So to me, in a way, it's like planting a garden. You take care of it, water it, keep the animals away from it. Eventually a few "weeds" may pop up, and what do you do? You pluck them out of the ground and throw them in the fire. You can even look at the parable of the four soils. The seeds have been thrown out and scattered. The only type of soil that provides a bountiful harvest is the fertile and open soil. So in a way, you could ask a man, "What kind of soil are you?"

So if someone were to ask me why God created us all, I would answer, "So that He can have a harvest."

This is only something I've come up with in my head. There is none like God, who can know Him? Even He says our ways are not His ways. But this is the best explanation I have without slapping a label on it like Calvinism or Arminianism. I'm not all too familiar with these isms but I have a feeling God set everything in motion the way He did to have the most bountiful harvest.

Edit: Also when He performs miracles like healings and casting out demons, you could say that it is like he is digging the rocks out of the ground, clearing the roots out of the way, tilling it up and fertilizing it so that when He plants His word in us we can take it and provide more for His kingdom.
 
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amariselle

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Thanks, Brother in Christ!

I mean, come on. An all-powerfull, all-wise, all-knowing God sent His Son into the world in an attempt to save every single human on the planet from suffering the torture of being literally burned for all eternity, ...an failed? Is such a god really omnipotent? The god of Arminianism is not.

First of all I will say this, I am not Calvinist, nor am I Arminian. I see significant problems with both.

The statement I quoted above, however, highlights one of the major concerns/objections I have with Calvinism. It is this, the belief that if most of mankind (or any person individually) does not believe the Gospel of salvation and is not saved, then that somehow becomes God's failure. So, from the Calvinist viewpoint there must be "limited atonement", because if the atonement is unlimited (for everyone) and not everyone is saved by it, then God will have failed.

So, my questions are these: Why is it God's failure if a person rejects Him? Was it God's failure when Adam and Eve chose to disobey His righteous command? Or was it the failure of Adam and Eve for doing so? Where does the fault lie? What about Satan? Was it God's failure that Satan fell and 1/3 of the angels with him? Or was the failure that of Satan and those angels?

Jesus did not just "attempt to save every single human on the planet from suffering the torture of being literally burned for all eternity", He accomplished everything necessary to do so. It is finished! If most of mankind rejects so great a salvation, and Scripture is clear that people can indeed "resist" or reject Him, then the failure is not God's, it is man's. The cross does not lose any of it's power, nor does God lose any of His sovereignty, simply because mere man rebels and turns away from Him. Just as God never lost any of His sovereignty when Adam and Eve sinned, or all the countless times His chosen people Israel sinned and rebelled against Him, He loses none of His sovereignty when people reject the Gospel. He is, however, a just and Holy God, and because the fault lies with man for rejecting Him, so they will be judged. If we are all preprogrammed robots or puppets who simply do what He made us do (including rejecting Him) then He is not a just God, nor is He loving. And actually, He is sovereign over nothing if we just do what He makes us do. (Perhaps like a child playing with his toys and causing them to each play their parts and face the consequences he decides). Some sovereignty! Also, when this view of God is taken to it's logical conclusion, the blame of evil and its origins is placed squarely on God Himself. (After all, if none of us have free will and God is the One making us do good, He is also the One making us do evil) People really should think about that.

James 1:
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 
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FenderTL5

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I'm a Calvinist, who has a big problem with the Arminian/ semi-Pelagian soteriology espoused by non-Calvinists, be they Methodists, Roman Catholics, Orthodoxy believers, Assemblies of God folks, etc.

ILLOGICAL

Let's start with these propositions.

1. God is the all-powerful Creator of us all.
2. God is all-wise; He does not make mistakes.
3. God is all-knowing.

Taken together, this means that God knowingly, willingly and deliberately creates billions of people who He knows will suffer eternal agony and torment in the fires of Hell, He creates the reprobate with full knowledge of their eternal fate beforehand.

And according to the non-Calvinist, God desires the salvation of every single human being who lives and ever will live without exception.

But why would an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God created the souls of billions of people that He knows fully well, before He even creates them, will reject His Son Jesus as Savior, and die in their sins and be consigned to everlasting torment in a fiery dungeon, Hell, if that were the case?

Does He create them in the hopes that they will believe on Him? Obviously not, because He is omniscient, has perfect, infallible knowledge, and has always known that they will not believe on Him. By creating the souls of these people with perfect knowledge they will never believe, that means that He is essentially sealing their fate by the mere act of creating them.

So it makes no sense to say that He truly desires their salvation when He intentionally creates them in such circumstances with the knowledge that they will never believe.

UNBIBLICAL


The Bible makes it crystal-clear that the reason why we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel is because God the Father determines beforehand that we will, He predestines us to be Christians and holy and have refuge under His Son. Repentance is something God grants us, it's a gift, so is our faith. It also teaches double predestination.

2 Timothy 2:25 - in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nation.

Acts 13:48 - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. [Probably the best Calvinist verse: we are appointed to eternal life, and then we believe the Gospel, not the other way around. God chooses, elects ordains us to life everlasting, and then we believe. Really goes with Ephesians and Romans 9:11]

Ephesians 1:4-5 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 - In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Galatians 1:15 - But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,

2 Timothy 1:8-9 - Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9:11 - (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Romans 9:21-23
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Now, non-Calvinists will often point to small prooftexts in order to prove that Jesus died and paid for the sins of every single person who lives in the world without exception, using verses such as 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, where the words "whole world" or "all men" are used, and it says God desires "all men" to be saved.

If you quote the whole of 2 Peter 3 instead of that one verse, you'll see it's talking about a definite group, not every single person in the world without exception:

2 Peter 3:1-9
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The author is talking about as specific group here; namely, born-again believers in Jesus Christ, of which he is a part, "you" the "beloved", "us". When he says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should repent, it also says that He is longsuffering toward "us", and the us is referring to the elect, to believers, it's not referring to every single human being in the world. God is not willing that any of *us* should perish, any of the believers in His Son Jesus Christ. The passage is directed to the elect, God's chosen children.


But when read in context, it is clear that when it says all men, it is referring to all men without distinction, men from every social status, ethnic group, and nation. Jesus paid for the sins of all types of people from every race, economic wealth, etc. The following verse exemplifies this:

Revelation 5:9 -
And they sang a new song, saying:

"You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,"

“I got home late last night to find that someone had eaten all the cookies.”

“The mother told her child that she expected all the dishes to be washed.”

“There’s a guy in my office that talks about politics all the time.”

Obviously, we all the common sense to realize that the people are not saying that every single dish that exists on planet Earth, or every cookie that exists, was eaten by the child or washed by the child.

Scripture must mesh with other Scripture. And other Scripture makes it clear that God died for a definite group of people and predestines people to salvation, others to damnation.

We evangelize because God has ordained the means as well as the ends, because faith comes by hearing.
So to sum up: Your point is; Christianity had it all wrong until Calvin showed up?
 
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συνείδησις

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Calvinism is really just fate with God dealing the cards. No different at it's core than the Muslims "Allah wills it." Everything becomes God's will, every evil deed comes from his hand. It really makes God a dystopian control freak.

It comes from the moral pessimism and fatalism of Manichaean gnosticism that Augustine unfortunately introduced into the church.
 
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Dave-W

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Calvinism does not deny freedom of choice.
2 of the 5 TULIP points do exactly that:

Total Depravity where man is incapable of making a choice FOR God. and

Irresistible Grace where once God extends it, man cannot fight against it.

Given that God wants ALL MEN to come to repentance (unless you think Peter lied when he wrote that) every person should be a Christian. Clearly that is NOT the case.
 
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