ARE GOD'S 10 COMMANDMENTS ABOLISHED?

[klutedavid]

I would ask you this.
In your heart do you believe it is ok to commit adultery, or do you believe in your heart it would grieve God if you did that?
In your heart do you believe it would grieve God if you stole?
In your heart would you think it is ok to take the Lords name in vain?
In your heart do you believe it is OK to bear false witness?

If you know in your mind those things are wrong for Christians to do, and in your heart you do not want to do them, doesn't that answer the question?

What about sorcery, kidnapping and afflicting widows and orphans. Do you think God regards these behaviors as sinful?

Does the law grant a knowledge of sin?

 

[klutedavid]

It wasn't marked because it was not part of the Ten in discussion.

What's that you say?

The ten are contained within the commandments to love God and others. The law is made redundant by love itself. God is love!

 

[expos4ever]

One a number of obviously flawed arguments in defence of the "Law is still in force" position is this:

To deny the Law is in force would mean that it is OK is to commit murder and adultery, and to covet all your neighbour's stuff.

Really? You want to make this argument?

Please - this is a really bad argument.

Paul tells us that the Law gives the Jew the knowledge of what sin is. Fine.

Suppose there is no law, and suppose there is no other means by which I can gain knowledge of sin (a silly position given what Paul says about the Spirit, but let that slide just for the moment). That still doesn't means it is morally acceptable to kill, it simply means we would not be aware that it is morally unacceptable to kill.

Second, it is as clear as the shnoz on your face that, in the new covenant, the Spirit gives us knowledge of sin.

What kind of a Holy Spirit would "overlook" imparting knowledge of sin to the believer?

 

[James Richards]

What about sorcery, kidnapping and afflicting widows and orphans. Do you think God regards these behaviors as sinful?

Does the law grant a knowledge of sin?

I have already stated sin is not solely defined by the ten commandments

 

[James Richards]

There you go. Unless I misunderstood you.

You have stated the ten commandments are not applicable for the Christian, and you question they are law written in your mind and placed on your heart. Under those circumstances it is entirely correct to ask you if you believe in your heart it is ok to steal, bear false witness, commit adultery etc. I note you have thus far refused to answer the question

 

[Saint Steven]

One a number of obviously flawed arguments in defence of the "Law is still in force" position is this:

To deny the Law is in force would mean that it is OK is to commit murder and adultery, and to covet all your neighbour's stuff.

Really? You want to make this argument?

Please - this is a really bad argument.

Paul tells us that the Law gives the Jew the knowledge of what sin is. Fine.

Suppose there is no law, and suppose there is no other means by which I can gain knowledge of sin (a silly position given what Paul says about the Spirit, but let that slide just for the moment). That still doesn't means it is morally acceptable to kill, it simply means we would not be aware that it is morally unacceptable to kill.

Second, it is as clear as the shnoz on your face that, in the new covenant, the Spirit gives us knowledge of sin.

What kind of a Holy Spirit would "overlook" imparting knowledge of sin to the believer?

Right. I agree.

Romans 8:3-4
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[Saint Steven]

You have stated the ten commandments are not applicable for the Christian, and you question they are law written in your mind and placed on your heart. Under those circumstances it is entirely correct to ask you if you believe in your heart it is ok to steal, bear false witness, commit adultery etc. I note you have thus far refused to answer the question

If your conclusion is that I am under the law, then I will have to disagree. You are assuming (incorrectly) that those sins are only found in the Ten Commandments.

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— 13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

 

[James Richards]

One a number of obviously flawed arguments in defence of the "Law is still in force" position is this:

To deny the Law is in force would mean that it is OK is to commit murder and adultery, and to covet all your neighbour's stuff.

Really? You want to make this argument?

Please - this is a really bad argument.

Paul tells us that the Law gives the Jew the knowledge of what sin is. Fine.

Suppose there is no law, and suppose there is no other means by which I can gain knowledge of sin (a silly position given what Paul says about the Spirit, but let that slide just for the moment). That still doesn't means it is morally acceptable to kill, it simply means we would not be aware that it is morally unacceptable to kill.

Second, it is as clear as the shnoz on your face that, in the new covenant, the Spirit gives us knowledge of sin.

What kind of a Holy Spirit would "overlook" imparting knowledge of sin to the believer?

The law is not in force, it cannot condemn the born again Christian. The Christian is justified/righteous by faith in Christ. The law was abolished, in respect of law as we all understand law to mean. For law as we understand law to mean comes with a penalty for transgression. That ended at Calvary for believers. It is finished. However, the moral law without the penalty for transgression is placed in the minds and hearts of believers. It is perfect! It simply means in your mind you know how God wants you to live and in your heart you want to live as God desires you to. Is it really legalism to believe in your heart you do not want to bear false witness, steal, take the Lords name in vain, covet etc? Is that not ludicrous? You only get a saviour from sin because the law, minus the penalty for transgression has been placed in your heart. For if you in your heart want to live as God desires you to live, you cannot use grace as a licence to sin, it is impossible. God made a watertight covenant, there are no holes in it. Sadly, there are many who, if you even dare to state the moral law is in your heart and mind scream foul/legalism. In truth it is just as bad, from the opposite end of the spectrum as believing, in effect you have righteousness of observing the law. The bib le itself testifies to the law being placed in your heart and mind:

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 ‘This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’b]'>[b]

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.’

Heb10:15-17

 

[expos4ever]

One of the biggest crimes against exegesis we are seeing in this thread is the "de-narrativizing" of Scripture - completely ignoring the evolving history of how God is working in the world. Paul clubs us over the head, repeatedly, about how what has happened in Christ is part of a dynamic story.

But some posters here read statements like "the Laws gives knowledge of sin" and, without warrant of course, eternalize them. Bingo, case-closed: we need the Law to gain knowledge of sin.

Paul often makes it clear that the moving story puts the Law behind us. To wit:

For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Something was true in the past, but now we have been released from the law. And, of course, the "law is is still in force" crowd have to literally bend and mangle this to say "the sense in which we have been released from the law is the very restricted and specialized sense that we are released from the penalty for disobeying it".

The text does not say this, of course.

Another example:

because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for [j]through the Law comes the knowledge of sin, But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

Now we can debate what has changed. But it is clear that something has.

And is the overlooking of the unfolding nature of God's plan that I am objecting to: just because it was the case that the Law served such and such a role does not mean it remains the case.

 

[James Richards]

If your conclusion is that I am under the law, then I will have to disagree. You are assuming (incorrectly) that those sins are only found in the Ten Commandments.
.

If your conclusion is that I believe you are under law, you do not understand the new covenant I am afraid

 

[Saint Steven]

If your conclusion is that I believe you are under law, you do not understand the new covenant I am afraid

Neither one of us seems to be able to get a straight answer here. How about this, you tell me what you believe, and I'll tell you what I believe. Rather than trying to convince each other. You seem to disagree with me. We could leave it at that.

 

[James Richards]

Neither one of us seems to be able to get a straight answer here. How about this, you tell me what you believe, and I'll tell you what I believe. Rather than trying to convince each other. You seem to disagree with me. We could leave it at that.

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’b]'>[b]

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.’
Heb10:16&17

You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone/ten commandments but on tablets of human hearts 2Cor3:3

You have been repeatedly answered

 

[Saint Steven]

…
You have been repeatedly answered

Well, you obviously don't know when to quit. lol

 

[James Richards]

It is so simple, if you are prepared to accept it. The law with its penalty for transgression was abolished at calvary for believers. It is finished. But the law itself, what is written in the moral law/tc is holy just and good. God will not abolish the fact he does not want you to have other gods before him. He will not abolish the fact he does not want you to build graven images or take his name in vain. He will not abolish the fact he wants you to honour your parents. He will not abolish the fact he does not want you to murder, steal, commit adultery, bear false witness or covet. And he will not abolish the fact he wants you to meditate on his goodness to you and be grateful for it.
So, God transferred that law from tablets of stone onto tablets of human hearts, meaning in your heart you want to live in accordance with what is holy, just and good. Because, and only because he supernaturally did that for you, your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more, for you have a saviour from your sin.
The power of sin is the law Cor15:56 The legally enforceable law that has the power to condemn you. The law cannot now condemn you, for it is in your heart, and you in your heart want to follow it, therefore you have a saviour from your sin.
With the true power of sin removed from you, what is the result?
Do we then nullify the law by this faith(a righteousness of faith in Christ not observing the law) Not at all! Rathe we uphold the law Rom 3:31

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

Perfect covenant

 

[Saint Steven]

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’b]'>[b]

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.’
Heb10:16&17

You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone/ten commandments but on tablets of human hearts 2Cor3:3

You have been repeatedly answered

A similar scripture appears in Hebrews chapter ten. I can see why you prefer this one. (chapter 8) Note verses 6, 7, 9, and 13. (in bold)

Hebrews 8:6-13
But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs
as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one,
since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,
no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

 

[Saint Steven]

It is so simple, if you are prepared to accept it. The law with its penalty for transgression was abolished at calvary for believers. It is finished. But the law itself, what is written in the moral law/tc is holy just and good. God will not abolish the fact he does not want you to have other gods before him. He will not abolish the fact he does not want you to build graven images or take his name in vain. He will not abolish the fact he wants you to honour your parents. He will not abolish the fact he does not want you to murder, steal, commit adultery, bear false witness or covet. And he will not abolish the fact he wants you to meditate on his goodness to you and be grateful for it.
So, God transferred that law from tablets of stone onto tablets of human hearts, meaning in your heart you want to live in accordance with what is holy, just and good. Because, and only because he supernaturally did that for you, your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more, for you have a saviour from your sin.
The power of sin is the law Cor15:56 The legally enforceable law that has the power to condemn you. The law cannot now condemn you, for it is in your heart, and you in your heart want to follow it, therefore you have a saviour from your sin.
With the true power of sin removed from you, what is the result?
Do we then nullify the law by this faith(a righteousness of faith in Christ not observing the law) Not at all! Rathe we uphold the law Rom 3:31

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

Perfect covenant

All good then. Anything I need to do?

 

[James Richards]

A similar scripture appears in Hebrews chapter ten. I can see why you prefer this one. (chapter 8)

I quoted from chapter 10

 

[Saint Steven]

I quoted from chapter 10

Well, mind the context then. So much for your "Perfect covenant". (obsolete)

 

[James Richards]

Well, mind the context then. So much for your "Perfect covenant". (obsolete)

I think I had better put you on ignore. I won't advise you as to what you should do, I don't believe you are on the site to take advice.
God bless

 

[Saint Steven]

I think I had better put you on ignore. I won't advise you as to what you should do, I don't believe you are on the site to take advice.
God bless

Nor did I ask for your advice. If you came here to fix me, you'll be quite disappointed. But put me on IGNORE. That seems to be for the best.