A question for flat earth people

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I could understand that if they were only the rays coming toward me... however, many times they are splayed out all around in all directions.

Those rays that appear to be splayed out all around in many directions are, in fact, coming towards you. It is strictly a matter of perspective that causes them to appear to diverge.

Once I was privileged to be able to observe rays going over my head and proceeding on to the other side of the sky. Perspective caused them to appear, again, to converge opposite the sun! It was mind boggling to observe that phenomenon, a completely unexpected example of the laws of perspective.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Take some time to think about what you just said...

The earth is spinning under the bullet, right? So the bullet drifts to the right.
Now, if this were so, the earth would be spinning under the plane, to the extent that when it went to land, the runway would be moving sideways.

Now, I have flown a plane... not landed but flown... and there is absolutely no sideways movement of a runway that would be accounted for. Not that I could see as I sat right beside my buddy as we landed.

People accept the coriolis effect, as it pertains to bullets because 99.9% of them will never ever fire a bullet for 1000 meters.

It's not just a drift of the plane.. It is supposedly the earth spinning under the plane.. A movement of 3 inches over every 1000 yards would make a flight of several hundred or even a thousand miles an impossibility to have the plane safely land at the end.

Not if you are automatically compensating all along the way.

 

[JackRT]

The spin of the earth has no effect on a bullet fired directly east or directly west but any shot to the north or to the south will need to be compensated. Consider a sniper firing directly north. Both the sniper and the target are moving to the east due to the earth's rotation. But both are not moving at the same speed. The sniper being closer to the equator is moving a bit faster so his shot will lead the target. He should have aimed slightly to the left (west) of the target. If he were firing to the south the effect is reversed. The longest successful sniper shot was about two miles and the deflection would be a matter of inches. An artillery shot over 20 miles would require a greater deflection.

 

[JacksBratt]

The length of the flight doesn't matter.

What would matter is the drift during the brief period that the plane is touching down ...

This is how I see it. The length of the flight, in miles, is of no real consequence. It is the time spent in the air while being unattached to the earth... Like the bullet.

Soon as it leaves the barrel, I am told, it ceases to be attached to the earth and the earth begins to rotate under it. The longer of a period of time, that the bullet remains unattached to the earth, determines how much the earth will rotate under it.

So, in the minuscule amount of time that it takes to go 1000 yds... for the bullet, it drifts 3 inches,
correct?

I believe that the longer it stays aloft, the faster the earth will turn under it.. due to the fact that it is slowly losing it's sideways velocity that is synchronized with the earth. Thus, the earth's rotation, relative to the bullets vector, would keep increasing in speed.

So, how fast would the earth be spinning under the bullet if it was aloft for the duration of time that it takes to fly, say, from New York to LA... four or five hours?

The earth is supposed to spin at about 800 to 1000 miles per hour.. so, the relative sideways movement of the bullet, in a four hour span.. would be close to this...

So... the aircraft... being affected in the same manner... would never be able to land.

 

[JacksBratt]

Not if you are automatically compensating all along the way.

So, not only are the pilots constantly nosing down, 8 inches in every mile traveled, in order to follow the curve of the earth... but they are constantly side slipping this giant air ship to compensate for the earth rotating 1000 mph below it?

Seriously?

So, how do you explain a hot air balloon? How do they continually compensate for this rotation?

 

[JackRT]

So, how do you explain a hot air balloon? How do they continually compensate for this rotation?

Other than altitude control there very little steering of a hot air balloon. By moving to a higher or lower altitude they might be able to pick up a favourable wind.

 

[JackRT]

So, not only are the pilots constantly nosing down, 8 inches in every mile traveled, in order to follow the curve of the earth... but they are constantly side slipping this giant air ship to compensate for the earth rotating 1000 mph below it?

They maintain constant altitude by using their altimeter based on barometric pressure. In the past aircraft navigated by means of landmarks or by taking star or sun sightings, then came navigation by radio beacons and now by GPS. So, yes they constantly correct for both the Coriolis Effect and for the earth's curvature.

 

[A_Thinker]

Soon as it leaves the barrel, I am told, it ceases to be attached to the earth and the earth begins to rotate under it. The longer of a period of time, that the bullet remains unattached to the earth, determines how much the earth will rotate under it.

The plane/bullet in the air is not completely detached from the earth, just less solidly than if it was connected to the ground. So, the earth doesn't accelerate while the plane/bullet is in flight, and it loses a steady 3 inches per 1000 yards (east to west).

The plane flight plan will compensate for any in-flight drift during the flight itself.

The typical runway length is 2,000 yards, ... so the largest drift a landing plane would have to deal with is a few inches.

 

[JacksBratt]

The spin of the earth has no effect on a bullet fired directly east or directly west but any shot to the north or to the south will need to be compensated. Consider a sniper firing directly north. Both the sniper and the target are moving to the east due to the earth's rotation. But both are not moving at the same speed. The sniper being closer to the equator is moving a bit faster so his shot will lead the target. He should have aimed slightly to the left (west) of the target. If he were firing to the south the effect is reversed. The longest successful sniper shot was about two miles and the deflection would be a matter of inches. An artillery shot over 20 miles would require a greater deflection.

So, if they are firing directly to geographic north they would use one calculation.. then.. if they were firing 20 degrees off of true north, the calculation would change.. then again if they were aiming 70 degrees off of true north..

Then you have windage... elevation differences and distance...

These guys must be computers in their heads.


Give this a watch. These two obviously know what they are doing.. shooting out to 1583 yards.

Tell me if you even hear them hint at a sniff of using "Coriolis" effect in their calculations. They don't mention the direction, in relation to North or the spin of the earth.. nor do they mention the curve of the earth... None of it.

What they do mention is wind, altitude, humidity and a couple of other things like the velocity of the bullet slowing from super sonic to sub sonic and what that does to its accuracy..

 

[JacksBratt]

They maintain constant altitude by using their altimeter based on barometric pressure. In the past aircraft navigated by means of landmarks or by taking star or sun sightings, then came navigation by radio beacons and now by GPS. So, yes they constantly correct for both the Coriolis Effect and for the earth's curvature.

That's interesting. You never once mentioned gyros... these were, and are, one of the most important devices on any aircraft.

Gyros are unique as they spin and maintain an attitude despite movement and gravity...

They are one thing that FE'ers use to prove that there is no curve.

If you took a gyro.... well, here, watch this.. I know it's dry so if you want.. got o the 5:55 mark and you will see why a gyro, on a plane, should rotate in relation to the level of the plane as it follows the curve.. this would make it useless as datum for the artificial horizon that it is used for in aircraft.

 

[JacksBratt]

The plane/bullet in the air is not completely detached from the earth, just less solidly than if it was connected to the ground. So, the earth doesn't accelerate while the plane/bullet is in flight, and it loses a steady 3 inches per 1000 yards.

The plane flight plan will compensate for any in-flight drift during the flight itself.

The typical runway length is 2,000 yards, ... so the largest drift a landing plane would have to deal with is a few inches.

So, after a 3 or 4 hour flight.. the slip is still only 3 inches in 1000 yds?

 

[JacksBratt]

Those rays that appear to be splayed out all around in many directions are, in fact, coming towards you.

That is a rather bold and assuming statement... don't you think? You are telling me that I cannot tell that rays are going to my left, to my right, directly toward me and away from me?

 

[JacksBratt]

The spin of the earth has no effect on a bullet fired directly east or directly west but any shot to the north or to the south will need to be compensated. Consider a sniper firing directly north. Both the sniper and the target are moving to the east due to the earth's rotation. But both are not moving at the same speed. The sniper being closer to the equator is moving a bit faster so his shot will lead the target. He should have aimed slightly to the left (west) of the target. If he were firing to the south the effect is reversed. The longest successful sniper shot was about two miles and the deflection would be a matter of inches. An artillery shot over 20 miles would require a greater deflection.

Tell me, in this description, of the longest kill shot ever.. when he talks about Coriolanus.. they do talk about "spindrift" but this is not the spin of the earth.. it is deflection, of the bullet, due to gyroscopic motion of the bullet.....

 

[JacksBratt]

Other than altitude control there very little steering of a hot air balloon. By moving to a higher or lower altitude they might be able to pick up a favourable wind.

So they must hate the drift they get from the Coriolis? You know, since they cannot adjust, continually, like an airplane pilot.


Look.. this idea has so many holes in it and so many real life examples of how it doesn't exist at all.. not for bullets.. not for planes.. not for red fish or blue fish.

 

[JacksBratt]

They maintain constant altitude by using their altimeter based on barometric pressure. In the past aircraft navigated by means of landmarks or by taking star or sun sightings, then came navigation by radio beacons and now by GPS. So, yes they constantly correct for both the Coriolis Effect and for the earth's curvature.

Actually, they do it with an artificial horizon gauge on their dash.. controlled by a gyro that should not follow the curve of the earth. Well, they did for decades..

 

[A_Thinker]

So, after a 3 or 4 hour flight.. the slip is still only 3 inches in 1000 yds?

Yes ... it's constant ...

Also, the Coriolis effect only causes shifts from east to west (or vice versa), so, the maximum shift effect on landing planes would be on runways running North and South. Interestingly, most airport runways are laid out running East and West.

 

[JackRT]

Yes ... it's constant ...

Also, the Coriolis effect only causes shifts from east to west (or vice versa), so, the maximum shift effect on landing planes would be on runways running North and South. Interestingly, most airport runways are laid out running East and West.

And even so cross winds would be a far FAR, FAR more important factor.

 

[A_Thinker]

A pilot's answer to a question on the Coriolis Effect ... from http://www.askacfi.com/3494/coriolis…earth’s-rotation…and-the-airplane-oh-my.htm

Question:

I just read the following statement:

"Pilots need to correct their flight path based on the earth rotating under the airplane, which is the Coriolis effect. Take for example a flight leaving from San Francisco that is heading to New York. If the earth did not rotate, there would be no Coriolis effect and thus the pilot could fly in a straight path to the east. However, due to Coriolis effect, the pilot has to constantly correct for the earth's movement beneath plane. Without this correction, the plane would land somewhere in the southern portion of the United States."

I'm a beginner pilot, but this certainly does not seem correct! The plane is in the Earth's atmosphere which moves with the Earth as it rotates. No correction should be needed for the Earth's rotation. If correction WAS needed, I suppose a plane moving in the opposite direction of the Earth's rotation would get to a destination faster than a plane moving with the Earth's rotation. But I've NEVER heard of having to correct for rotation of the Earth...

Secondly, the Coriolis effect and wind.

The Coriolis effect is an apparent motion/deflection (dependent on the position of the observer), deflection of moving objects when they are viewed from a rotating reference frame.

When it comes to winds, the direction of deflection is always to the right in the Northern Hemisphere and to the left in the Southern Hemisphere. However, are winds really moving in a straight line...but only SEEM to be deflected left or right due to Coriolis? Or are the actually being DEFLECTED because of Coriolis?

And winds move counter-clockwise around low pressure and clockwise around high pressure (in Northern Hemisphere). Are they TRULY moving in these directions due to pressure gradient force...or merely seem to move in these directions due to Coriolis? Perhaps pressure gradient force and Coriolis both have an effect on the winds.

Confusing and rather broad topics, I know. However, any elaboration would be appreciated.

Response:

This is a very good question and a very interesting discussion. My first discussion on this topic was with an uncle who is an engineer who asked, “Why do jets fly faster from West to East than from East to West?” My answer was jetstream and his offer was the Earth’s rotation. I thought my answer was more correct than his but, more importantly, it wasn’t an issue to argue over with him. Later I realized that these answers are almost identical (even if offered in ignorance of the other) because jetstream is a byproduct of the Earth’s rotation (much related to the Coriolis effect).

Here are some thoughts on the four statements in the referenced quote. Hope these are interesting and helpful (and fully correct, or at least close enough.)

“Pilots need to correct their flight path based on the earth rotating under the airplane, which is the Coriolis effect.”

Like Steve said very well (and others have added), Coriolis affects the weather and you, the pilot, flies (in) the weather. If there were no weather (purely hypothetical suggestion) then it seems possible that you may need to correct for Coriolis, but…

“Take for example a flight leaving from San Francisco that is heading to New York. If the earth did not rotate, there would be no Coriolis effect and thus the pilot could fly in a straight path to the east.”

False, or at least mostly false. This language presumes a “flat-earth” path between San Francisco and New York. Of course, we know that the earth is not flat but instead round. A “straight line” path may be your true course between San Francisco and New York, but this “straight line” path is not one single heading for the entire distance. Because the Earth’s surface is curved, this straight line path is actually a curved path (that’s why the heading changes). If you need more explanation on that, the sources below may help.

“However, due to Coriolis effect, the pilot has to constantly correct for the earth’s movement beneath plane.”

Again, see the responses above.

“Without this correction, the plane would land somewhere in the southern portion of the United States.”

I’m not going to answer this with absolute certainty, but I believe this presumes that you fly a single heading instead of a straight path or using some (erroneous) “straight line” projection from a flat map. Remember that a straight line path is actually a curved line…

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

So, not only are the pilots constantly nosing down, 8 inches in every mile traveled, in order to follow the curve of the earth... but they are constantly side slipping this giant air ship to compensate for the earth rotating 1000 mph below it?

Seriously?

So, how do you explain a hot air balloon? How do they continually compensate for this rotation?

Its carried by the air that is carried around with the rotation of the earth.

 

[A_Thinker]

Interesting videos on Coriolis Effect