Tree Rings a Problem for 6,000 Year Old Earth

[Chinchilla]

ChinChilla: << We only believe it because God said so >>


God did not say so. Where did the Bible say how old the earth is? It doesn't.

Where is the Garden of Eden today? As a child I was taught that God removed it from the earth. Yet there is no verse anywhere in the Bible that says that God removed the Garden of Eden. The removal of the Garden of Eden is just another story invented by creationists. If the Garden of Eden was a physical fact, it should still be here, or at least the Bible does not say otherwise.

Garden of Eden is there , hidden from us , probably burried in north pole .
I never said it was removed.
It's not like one's salvation depends on the theory of evolution or old earth , but at least one of us will be ashemed when arriving in heaven knowing he was wrong all the time .
When I take it literally at least I have excuse at the Judgement Seat of Christ that I believed what was written , when you put science into God's word you don't have excuse because you believed man rather than God .

 

[Chinchilla]

Evidence for any of it not being constant and/or predictable via current measurements? (HINT: there is none, besides fudging numbers in order to get the result you want.)

No it's not , you take a bone and do few tests via carbon dating for example . One will show the same bone being 200k years old and the other 20k for example . One of them will be rejected according to what previous datings were from previous experiments .
It still shows that there is at least 1000% error but who cares right .

 

[Chinchilla]

That is true. But there is no evidence given us that they did. If, as you say, they were already immortal physically, why would there be such a tree and such fruit?

Perhaps so we can eat from it when we will be restored in future Kingdom as Jesus told us , one of many promises to overcommers . Jesus came to restore earth , can't restore if there wasn't one there in first place .

 

[Monna]

Perhaps so we can eat from it when we will be restored in future Kingdom as Jesus told us , one of many promises to overcommers . Jesus came to restore earth , can't restore if there wasn't one there in first place .

Sure. Maybe it will also be "sweet to the taste." But we won't need it for gaining everylasting life. The believer already has this. In this sense, Jesus is the "tree of life." Remember... "I am the way the truth and the life?"

 

[Chinchilla]

Sure. Maybe it will also be "sweet to the taste." But we won't need it for gaining everylasting life. The believer already has this. In this sense, Jesus is the "tree of life." Remember... "I am the way the truth and the life?"

There are two groups of people in the 1000 year kindom , these who endured so tribulation saints and these who were Changed .
The first do not have incorruptible bodies , it is possible for them to die at 100 year old for example if they be sinners .

Isaiah 65:20
“There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

ChinChilla: << We only believe it because God said so >>


God did not say so. Where did the Bible say how old the earth is? It doesn't.

Where is the Garden of Eden today? As a child I was taught that God removed it from the earth. Yet there is no verse anywhere in the Bible that says that God removed the Garden of Eden. The removal of the Garden of Eden is just another story invented by creationists. If the Garden of Eden was a physical fact, it should still be here, or at least the Bible does not say otherwise.

The Bible is Against Old Earth Creationism:

#1. The Genealogy of Jesus.

The genealogy of Jesus Christ can be traced all the way back to Adam in Luke 3 (Through Mary's line) (See Luke 3:23-38).​

#2. Jesus references the beginning of creation with the story of Adam and Eve.

Jesus marks the beginning of creation by referring to the story of Adam and Eve:

For Jesus said, "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Mark 10:6-9).

We can see clearly here that Jesus is quoting from the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis 2. For it is written,

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. " (Genesis 2:24).​

3. There is no Gap Theory, Day Age Theory, or 2nd Creation Account in the Bible.

The Bible does not mention anything about a Gap Theory. It is purely an addition to God's Word. Jeremiah 4:23-27 is future prophecy talking about the aftermath of this world after the Lord Jesus returns. The context is Israel (See Jeremiah 4:1). The Day Age Theory is also false. A day is defined as a 24 hour period of time by saying that there was an evening and a morning. The 2nd Creation Account Theory that says that Genesis 2 is another creation account (Separate from Genesis 1) is false because Jesus references the first male and female in the beginning of creation with the story of Adam and Eve. In fact, the existence of so many ridiculous theories proves man's desperate need to explain away the miraculous power of God in favor of secular thinking.​

#4. Most who accept Old Earth Creationism Deny a Global Flood.

But the Global Flood is clearly taught in the Bible. For it is written,

"And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered." (Genesis 7:19-20).

2 Peter 3:6 is clearly talking about the global flood (and NOT about some previous world before Adam and Eve). The words "old" and "world" found in 2 Peter 3:5-6 is tied to talking about Noah with the words "old world" in 2 Peter 2:2-5.​

#5. Death entered the world by one man's sin (Who was Adam).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (Romans 5:12-14).

It says death reigned from Adam to Moses. It does not say death reigned from before Adam.​

Conclusion:

Old Earth Creationism is about trying to cram secular Science into the Bible that clearly does not fit. This belief is the result of having trouble of not letting go of the things of this world. For I believe many Old Earthers (and not all) are into secular movies, music, games, politics, materialism, etc. Granted, it does not mean Young Earth creationists cannot be worldly, but in my experience, Old Earth Creationists respect secular Science (Which is a thing that is a part of the world system). 1 John 2:15-17 says we are not to love the world and neither the things within this world. Secular Science would be included in that because it is something from the world.

 

[Mantishand]

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[NW82]

The story is still there in the rings of the tree. The years of plenty and the years of drought. We also have the layers of the glaciers that goes back millions of years and they have a wealth of information. There is dust and little air bubbles filled with a wealth of information.

My questions weren't addressed. Are you saying God couldn't have spoke the tree into existence with those traits in the tree from its beginning?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

ChinChilla: << We only believe it because God said so >>


God did not say so. Where did the Bible say how old the earth is? It doesn't.

Where is the Garden of Eden today? As a child I was taught that God removed it from the earth. Yet there is no verse anywhere in the Bible that says that God removed the Garden of Eden. The removal of the Garden of Eden is just another story invented by creationists. If the Garden of Eden was a physical fact, it should still be here, or at least the Bible does not say otherwise.

Then there are also good Scientific evidences for a Young Earth, as well:

#1. Dinosaur blood found within the bone of T-Rex:

The Bible confirms the existence of dinosaurs. The Behemoth is described alot like the Brachiosaurus in Job 40:15-24; And the Leviathan describes a dragon like beast in Job 41 (that is also briefly mentioned in Psalm 104:25-26 and Isaiah 27:1, too). In fact, the best evidence for dino's is the soft tissue found in the bone of a T-Rex.

#2. Seashells on the tops of the highest mountains:

There are seashells on tops of the tops of the highest mountains. This can only be if there was a global flood (Which goes against most Old Earth Creationist's beliefs). For if we are to believe the Evolutionists who say that the Earth was once covered by all water at some point, then how come the seashells did not erode away by the weathering of the elements for millions of years on the tops of these high mountains? This is contrary to secular Evolutionary thinking that denies the Bible and the global flood.

#3. Recession of the Moon:

The gravitational pull of the moon creates a “tidal bulge” on earth that causes the moon to spiral outwards very slowly. Because of this effect, the moon would have been closer to the earth in the past. Based on gravitational forces and the current rate of recession, we can calculate how much the moon has moved away over time. If the earth is only 6,000 years old, there’s no problem, because in that time the moon would have only moved about 800 feet (250 m). But most astronomy books teach that the moon is over four billion years old, which poses a major dilemma—less than 1.5 billion years ago the moon would have been touching the earth!

#4. Trees going through rock layers:

#5. Stalactite Length:

Fellow CF poster Xianghua says, I quote:

"The average stalactite growth rate is about 1 cm per 100 years. so if the earth is indeed so young we expect to find that most stalactites (dont be confuse with stalagmites) should be no more then 50-100cm long. This is indeed what we find in most stalactites caves:

(image from https://www.quora.com/Why-do-stalac...n-occur-in-pairs-Is-such-occurrence-important)

the main objection to this claim is that those stalactites may fall apart every several thousands years. but if it was true then the floor should be full of stalactites chunks (about 100 stalactites in the floor for every single stalactite above in a 1my old cave). and as you can see in the image, this is not what we find."​

I hope this helps, and may God bless you.



Sources Used:
https://answersingenesis.org/evidence-for-creation/six-evidences-of-young-earth/
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/4-scientific-evidence-for-a-young-earth.8037285/

 

[Marvin Knox]

...Science is in constant collision with the notion of a 6,000 year old earth.
Take tree rings, for example. How simple can you get?........

Apparently anti young earth types believe that for a young earth scenario to be true it would require that there be no tree ring record showing years of growth, that star light travel time proves an old universe, etc. etc.

Using that same logic - Adam would have to have been created weighing about 6 or 7 pounds, unable to chew solid food and have no pubic hair.

Faulty logic IMO.

No believer should fall for that kind of argument.

Now if one is simply not a believer in the accuracy of the scriptures and is just looking for some way to disprove their trustworthiness in any way they can - that's a horse of a different color. In that case it will be necessary to converse with such a person as we would with a non believer.

 

[joshua 1 9]

My questions weren't addressed. Are you saying God couldn't have spoke the tree into existence with those traits in the tree from its beginning?

Are you saying that a person with no knowledge of Science knows more about Science than all of the people that have dedicated their lives to specialize and study all there is to know about the subject. I am suppose to believe someone with two minutes of thought on a subject compared to someone that has spent their whole life to study an issue?

If you needed a doctor who to you go to? Someone that went to medical school and devoted their life to learning how to be a doctor. Or would you find a friend of your as church that put a few moments into trying to understand the issue and thinks they have a solution for you? The evidence Science has is overwhelming and your alternate explanation has the weight of a feather in comparison.

I have been a YEC from the beginning and I continue to be YEC. But you can not ignore the evidence. Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago. There were many, many, many new beginnings with Adam and Eve. Farming, herding, husbandry, marriage, civilization and the list goes on. Not the least of which has to do with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

YEC is simply a explanation of the last 6,000 years or the last 12,980 years. IF you want to know what took place before then you need to look at OEC. There was a massive extinction and a repopulation that takes place. The Bible talks about remnant theology that shows us how God repopulates the Earth with a remnant or 10% of the population.

There are 31 verses in Genesis chapter one (31,000 verses in the Bible). The Harvard library has over 200,000 books that go into great detail about those first 31 verses. No where is there a conflict or contradiction between Science and the Bible. In fact Science can more then verify that the Bible is accurate and true.

 

[NW82]

Are you saying that a person with no knowledge of Science knows more about Science than all of the people that have dedicated their lives to specialize and study all there is to know about the subject. I am suppose to believe someone with two minutes of thought on a subject compared to someone that has spent their whole life to study an issue?

If you needed a doctor who to you go to? Someone that went to medical school and devoted their life to learning how to be a doctor. Or would you find a friend of your as church that put a few moments into trying to understand the issue and thinks they have a solution for you? The evidence Science has is overwhelming and your alternate explanation has the weight of a feather in comparison.

I have been a YEC from the beginning and I continue to be YEC. But you can not ignore the evidence. Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago. There were many, many, many new beginnings with Adam and Eve. Farming, herding, husbandry, marriage, civilization and the list goes on. Not the least of which has to do with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

YEC is simply a explanation of the last 6,000 years or the last 12,980 years. IF you want to know what took place before then you need to look at OEC. There was a massive extinction and a repopulation that takes place. The Bible talks about remnant theology that shows us how God repopulates the Earth with a remnant or 10% of the population.

There are 31 verses in Genesis chapter one (31,000 verses in the Bible). The Harvard library has over 200,000 books that go into great detail about those first 31 verses. No where is there a conflict or contradiction between Science and the Bible. In fact Science can more then verify that the Bible is accurate and true.

My point is, and has been, that what we see in the geological record could have been spoken into existence with the "age", which means that what we see as billions of years, isn't.

 

[joshua 1 9]

The gravitational pull of the moon creates a “tidal bulge” on earth that causes the moon to spiral outwards very slowly. Because of this effect, the moon would have been closer to the earth in the past. Based on gravitational forces and the current rate of recession, we can calculate how much the moon has moved away over time. If the earth is only 6,000 years old, there’s no problem, because in that time the moon would have only moved about 800 feet (250 m). But most astronomy books teach that the moon is over four billion years old, which poses a major dilemma—less than 1.5 billion years ago the moon would have been touching the earth!

I have done all the math on the spin-down rate of the earth and the receding rate of the moon. It is very simple math that a fifth grader can confirm the age that science gives us for the earth. My son can do very advanced math and he can come up with formulas. But the math can be done just as easy without the use of the formulas.

There is a women that came up with a computer model that shows the exact angle the moon hit the Earth. This seems to fit best with all of the data we have to work with. When they were on the moon they left a reflector on the moon so they can come up with very accurate data to work with. They had a show about this on the big bang theory that was pretty funny.

 

[joshua 1 9]

My point is, and has been, that what we see in the geological record could have been spoken into existence with the "age", which means that what we see as billions of years, isn't.

Science is all about people coming up with a better explanation to support what is known. The problem is that none of the evidence supports your theory.

Johnathan Chan has some pretty advanced teaching on how God spoke Creation into Existence. Even Jesus is the Word Of God. Your explanation does not even make any sense based on the current level of understanding about Theology. In Genesis we read "GOD SAID 'let there be light'". Now we can think that this happened in an instant of time. But for God there is no time because He exists outside of time. His command was a perfect command and He watches over His word. It looks to me like the following verse in Isaiah makes it clear that in our world it takes time for God's word to accomplish His purpose.

In Genesis 1:3 " And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 And seeing that the light was good, God separated the light from the darkness.…

Isaiah 55 10 "For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, 11 so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it."

I wish in my life that in an instant God could perfect me and accomplish His plan and purpose. But it seems to be a process that takes place over time. In fact the very tree you are talking about teaches us that it takes time for the seed to sprout, and grow into a tree and produce fruit. For God this is a mature perfect tree that can produce fruit and reproduce itself. God waits to see if the tree produces fruit. If there is no fruit then He cuts down the tree and throws it in the fire. In the same way we are to produce the fruit of the Spirit. If we do not, then we are cut down and thrown into the fire.

In the Hebrew there is no past, present or future. In the Hebrew according to Chan there is only the perfect and the imperfect. If anyone want to look at this teaching I will include the link.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have done all the math on the spin-down rate of the earth and the receding rate of the moon. It is very simple math that a fifth grader can confirm the age that science gives us for the earth. My son can do very advanced math and he can come up with formulas. But the math can be done just as easy without the use of the formulas.

There is a women that came up with a computer model that shows the exact angle the moon hit the Earth. This seems to fit best with all of the data we have to work with. When they were on the moon they left a reflector on the moon so they can come up with very accurate data to work with. They had a show about this on the big bang theory that was pretty funny.

Well, if you believe the world is millions or billions of years old, then your doing your Math wrong. I would talk to an actual Astrophysicist who is a Christian like Dr. Jason Lisle or something and tell him what you discovered in regards to your experiments. For me: Just thinking about it rationally, it makes sense. If you are not an Astrophysicist, then you should not be doing these kinds of experiments and coming to the wrong conclusions.

As for my point before about Old Earth Creationists being sucked into worldly things. You just proved my point because you are boasting about a secular and sinful TV show.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Well, if you believe the world is millions or billions of years old, then your doing your Math wrong.

Not my math. I just accept the general belief among the experts that are qualified to know. I accept what they put in our text books. Of course text books are constantly being revised. As a general rule they have to totally rewrite a chapter to go to the next addition. So science is in a constant state of change in this regard. There are different areas we can look at. So they are able to confirm the results they get.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Astrophysicist who is a Christian like Dr. Jason Lisle

I go by Gerald Schneider Phd MIT.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not my math. I just accept the general belief among the experts that are qualified to know. I accept what they put in our text books. Of course text books are constantly being revised. As a general rule they have to totally rewrite a chapter to go to the next addition. So science is in a constant state of change in this regard. There are different areas we can look at. So they are able to confirm the results they get.

If they are secular scientist, then they are biased to a worldview without God. So I do not trust their findings. I prefer to trust Christians (who believe the Bible as I do in regards to the age of the Earth) who are professional Scientists instead. I already know my Bible supports a Young Earth, and a couple basic observations of our Earth lets us know the Earth is young, too (that confirms the Bible). It seems like a person has to do gymnastic twists in order to make Old Earth Creationism work in the Bible. It is just not natural and conflicts with what the Bible plainly says. Our first point of reference should be the Bible, then the Science should fall into place next. We shouldn't try and cram Science into the Bible. The Bible must always come first.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I go by Gerald Schneider Phd MIT.

Is he a Christian?

 

[joshua 1 9]

I already know my Bible supports a Young Earth

Your understanding of the Bible must be different than mine. The article on this is actually very short if you want to take a look. "Today, we look back in time and we see approximately 15 billion years of history. Looking forward from when the universe is very small - billions of times smaller - the Torah says six days. In truth, they both may be correct."

http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx