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Worldview discussion

holo

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I thank you for your candor. I admire you for your ability to honestly share your views with me here. So tell me, what implications do the aforementioned views have for meaning and purpose? Is there a meaning and purpose to life? If so, what is it?
I don't know what that purpose and meaning might be. But it seems that if there is some sort of meaning, it's not something obvious. Maybe there's a meaning, but for some reason it's hidden from us.

By the way, people usually talk about this supposed meaning as if it must be something positive, like "the point of life is to love" or "the meaning of existence is to know God". But God may be evil or whimsical for all I know. Perhaps the meaning is for us all to suffer.

But of course, the fact that I don't see any special meaning or purpose for our existence doesn't mean I don't have meaning in my life. I think that's actually one of the most fascinating and beautiful things about us existing at all - the fact that we find so much meaning in a universe that doesn't seem to have any in and of itself.
 
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anonymous person

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The common folklore associated with my pantheon is that we travel to the Otherworld called Tir Na Nog; a paradise realm of the gods and eternal youth and happiness. But of course, any description of an afterlife is pure wishful thinking. While Tir Na Nog sounds like a nice place to visit, most likely, I expect we just stop existing.

As for humans in general, we will eventually go extinct and the rest of the Universe will continue to do its thing long after we're gone. If there's still life on whichever planet we last lived, another species will eventually rise to take our place. I'm hoping it'll be avian.

Thank you for your insight awitch. I have one last question for you that is related to the last. This time, instead of the question being about the destiny of the human race, it will be about the destiny of the universe. What do you think will be the ultimate fate of the universe?
 
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anonymous person

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Experience of externals and experience of experience itself are two distinct things.

No, it is my direct knowledge that I only directly know phenomenological events, because those are the only things I can directly know.

Discontentment is directly experienced. Things "outside" in the universe are not directly experienced.

IMO life's meaning and purpose is to dispel discontentment and increase contentment. It drives literally all of our actions, as I see it.

Thank you ananda, for clarifying these points. I now have three more questions for you.

1. Are not the notions of contentment and discontentment person relative notions? Would you not say that what dispels discontment and increases contentment for one, may have the opposite effect on someone else?

2. What is the ultimate fate of the human race?

3. What is the ultimate fate of the universe?
 
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anonymous person

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Well, it was not a direct answer to origin, I admit.

But, why were we born into a broken world, and what are to do about it.

Tikkun Olam (fix the world) is a profound concept,
the place where mysticism meets activism.

I do not have time to respond more now but later today.

Origin, A thought, began with a thought, it really does not bother me though.

"Let there be light."

Why?

Why would there be need for light if there was nothing to see?

Thoughts owe their existence to persons who are capable of rational reflection. Are you saying that a person is responsible for the origin of the universe?
 
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anonymous person

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Short answer: they are dead.
Long answer: our psyche, our identity is not a monolithic whole, let alone a pre-existing essence incorporating a body that works like an empty shell. Our senses, our emotions, our memories all depend on (and are generated by) our physical being, even if our consciousness is more than the sum of its parts. Our "self" changes all the time , is often self-contradictory, and very much mortal.
I'm open to the notion that consciousness is a universal property of reality and that we return to a greater Whole upon death. But our "selves" are but constructs, as frail and as mortal as the rest of us.

Buddha actually figured this out 2500 years ago, and modern psychology and neuro-sciences support it.

Thanks Jane_the_Bane for your thoughts here. I have another question, a followup, of sorts, to the one I asked previously. That is, what do you think the ultimate fate of the universe is?
 
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anonymous person

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Again, I have to look at your question from several different directions. On one end, I see our Human Form as basically animals with all of the purpose that all other animals have, like breeding, raising children, gathering food and so forth. On the other end I have to look at the evolution of consciousness that on this earth has peeked in the form of Human Beings. I don't know if that gives us "meaning", but it is a form of purpose such that because of consciousness we are the Universe being aware of it's self. When putting on the hat of a Lover of God, and experiencing God as the very foundation of all there is, we are God being aware of Itself.

Very well. I thank you for the description you have provided and it gives me a lot to ponder. So tell me, with regards to the question of destiny, what is the ultimate fate of the human race and what is the ultimate fate of the universe?
 
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anonymous person

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Yes, I'm very familiar with Christian natural theology, though I tend to prefer the Patristic and medieval periods. I do like Leibniz, though.



Human beings evolved, and we owe our existence to the natural history of life on this planet. Had events played out differently and mammals not managed to prosper, we would not be here. Though I suspect that a different intelligent species would have evolved instead, sooner or later.

My thoughts on purpose and meaning are much more difficult (and dark, given my existentialist background), so I can't really address that topic without jumping forward to the issue of destiny. I am personally agnostic on the question of the immortality of the soul--I see the individual self as a process rather than a discrete substance, and given the ephemerality of processes, I have some difficulty seeing the self as an individual surviving death. I think there are ways of conceiving of it that work, but I am far from convinced.

This shoves me straight into Absurdist waters, however, since I view meaning as an inherently teleological concept, and it is unclear to me what purpose a finite life could possibly have. Even on some sort of pantheistic ontology, where we could say that we are playing a role in the universe knowing or expressing itself, that seems of little interest to us if we are interchangeable and our roles end with our lives. I'm left agreeing with Albert Camus that the only important question in philosophy is suicide, though I would answer it differently than he did. If life is a farce, I see no compelling reason to play along with it. It's the rejection a meaningless and indifferent reality that ultimately strikes me as the most powerful statement of autonomy.

My answer is to accept a Pascalian Wager on the immortality of the soul. If my decidedly dark philosophy here is right, I gain nothing because there's nothing to be gained, but if it is wrong, I am into rebellion territory in the theological sense. Which is clearly bad. At the end of the day, I think meaning can only exist by standing in the presence of the Absolute, recognizing that you are ultimately powerless, trusting that reality is actually valuable in a meaningful sense, and then living your life as authentically as possible. I do not think losing yourself in your work, in other people, or whatever else is a suitable replacement for the type of meaning that we crave.

Like I said, I am pretty Christianity-lite. Or Christianity-dark-dark-dark, as the case may be this time around. I think it's one of the things that keeps me from slipping off into the waters of Vedic idealism.

I greatly appreciate the thoughtful response Silmarien. I too disagree with Camus when he argued that despite the absurdity of life, one should work to promote brotherhood. It seems to me to be utterly inconsistent of him to on one hand say that life is objectively meaningless, and then on the other, to say that humans should not commit suicide, but rather, should work to promote brotherhood. Sartre's recommendation also evinces such an inconsistency. For he claimed that one could create meaning for one's life by following a certain course of action. His course entailed him affirming Marxism. But this seems to me to be an exercise in self-delusion. It does not seem to me to be the case that the universe would really acquire a meaning just because I happen to give it one. As Stephen Crane wrote, "A man said to the universe: 'Sir I exist!' 'However,' said the universe, 'The fact has not created in me a sense of obligation.'"

So Silmarien, since you have already touched on your views of the destiny of the human race, what are your views on the ultimate fate of the universe. Science paints us a dim picture here no?
 
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anonymous person

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The Baha'i world view is an essential aspect of our Faith...

There is a well-known prayer that indicates our world view:

"O God! Make our souls dependent upon the Verses of Thy Divine Unity, our hearts cheered with the outpourings of Thy Grace, that we may unite even as the waves of one sea and become merged together as the rays of Thine effulgent Light; that our thoughts, our views, our feelings may become as one reality, manifesting the spirit of union throughout the world. Thou art the Gracious, the Bountiful, the Bestower, the Almighty, the Merciful, the Compassionate."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 405

and the following also applies:

"As we view the world around us, we are compelled to observe the manifold evidences of that universal fermentation which, in every continent of the globe and in every department of human life, be it religious, social, economic or political, is purging and reshaping humanity in anticipation of the Day when the wholeness of the human race will have been recognized and its unity established."

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 288)


Much thanks is in order Arthra, to you. For you have succinctly and clearly presented us with a view of the Baha'i worldview. It seems to me to be monistic and centers on the notion that reality is one and that all life is oriented towards a unity with the one. It seems to me then, like other views here, to be pantheistic. Is that accurate?
 
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anonymous person

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I don't know what that purpose and meaning might be. But it seems that if there is some sort of meaning, it's not something obvious. Maybe there's a meaning, but for some reason it's hidden from us.

By the way, people usually talk about this supposed meaning as if it must be something positive, like "the point of life is to love" or "the meaning of existence is to know God". But God may be evil or whimsical for all I know. Perhaps the meaning is for us all to suffer.

But of course, the fact that I don't see any special meaning or purpose for our existence doesn't mean I don't have meaning in my life. I think that's actually one of the most fascinating and beautiful things about us existing at all - the fact that we find so much meaning in a universe that doesn't seem to have any in and of itself.

Then you, like Camus and Sartre, would say that while the universe and life itself has no objective meaning or purpose, individual human beings can create meaning and purpose for themselves. If this is an accurate summary of your view, then it puts you right along with many others here who think the same way. One thing caught my attention however in what you wrote. You alluded to certain propositions as being "positive" as opposed to "negative". Is not saying something is "positive" or "negative" to make an evaluative judgment? It seems to me that such evaluative judgments, taking your view of reality as true, are all equally valid, since what is good or bad, right or wrong, positive or negative, is simply determined by each individual's preference on the issue, and not by an appeal to an objectively existing standard by which to adjudicate between views. If that is indeed the case holo, then would you not agree that like meaning and purpose, morality too, is more or less a social convention?
 
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dlamberth

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Very well. I thank you for the description you have provided and it gives me a lot to ponder. So tell me, with regards to the question of destiny, what is the ultimate fate of the human race and what is the ultimate fate of the universe?
Today where I'm at I'd say that the Human Race will evolve into and be replaced by some type of higher form of consciousness. As to the Universe, I have to say the same. When putting on my Lover of God hat, I'd have to say that the highest form of Consciousness is God Consciousness. What the means in response to your question is that this Creation is being pulled towards the awakening of God Consciousness. This comes from the perspective that the only reality is God. And ALL is God. So I have no doubt that through out the Universe that there are many, many other forms of Consciousness bubbling up towards that same trajectory in an infinite number of ways.
 
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Silmarien

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So Silmarien, since you have already touched on your views of the destiny of the human race, what are your views on the ultimate fate of the universe. Science paints us a dim picture here no?

Eh, I'm not a physicalist so it's not really an issue that interests me very much. The idea that the universe is going to die is only depressing if you think that reality can be reduced to the physical universe, and even there, it depends upon your theory of time. If we take a block universe view and see past, present, and future as equally real, then the universe will always have been full of creative purpose from a certain perspective. (Or have always been eternally pointless, as the case may be.)

Then you, like Camus and Sartre, would say that while the universe and life itself has no objective meaning or purpose, individual human beings can create meaning and purpose for themselves.

Camus said the opposite, actually. He was a critic of Sartre's existentialism and held that meaning could not be created, but that we ought to continue in the attempt anyway. Myth of Sisyphus.
 
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ananda

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Thank you ananda, for clarifying these points. I now have three more questions for you.

1. Are not the notions of contentment and discontentment person relative notions? Would you not say that what dispels discontment and increases contentment for one, may have the opposite effect on someone else?

2. What is the ultimate fate of the human race?

3. What is the ultimate fate of the universe?
1. Yes, discontentment and contentment are relative on a continuum, like "hot" and "cold" on the temperature continuum.

There are various actions which can temporarily suppress feelings of discontentment and/or temporarily fortify feelings of contentment in some individuals, yet those same actions can create the opposite effect in other individuals.

However, permanently addressing discontentment itself by uprooting its causes (as opposed to suppressing or papering it over) is one of the primary goals of Buddhism.

2 & 3. The answer to these questions is unconceivable. Why ask them in the first place?
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Thanks Jane_the_Bane for your thoughts here. I have another question, a followup, of sorts, to the one I asked previously. That is, what do you think the ultimate fate of the universe is?
Given that we are talking about astronomical categories here (literally), the end of the universe is so far removed that even our sun will be long gone by then. If sapient beings are still around at that point, they will be further removed from us than we are from dinosaurs, or even the earliest forms of life on this planet. Maybe they will remember us as a pioneer species, the way we look at the first lung fish who colonised dry land. Provided we don't kill ourselves through environmental degradation, overconsumption and pollution within the next few hundred years, that is.
But back to the universe: I do not really know which hypothesis is currently best supported by astrophysics: the big crunch? Heat death? I bet they are still far too simplistic , and it's all about twelve-dimensional superstrings vibrating in harmony with a cosmic symphony or something like that.
 
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Robban

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Thoughts owe their existence to persons who are capable of rational reflection. Are you saying that a person is responsible for the origin of the universe?

What?

Nearest we can come to person is voice.
The origin of the universe/s is way out of my limits,

So, what is there to say?

Why not a thought?

So the Lord of hosts in His humbleness presented a thought before the heavenly hosts,

"Let us make man in our image."

"No"

So if the Lord is the Lord, what happened?

He made man in His own image, in His own image He made them man and woman.

So there we have a kind thought to begin with.

A couple more standing on one leg,
Psalms 33:11,
"The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
the thoughts of His heart throughout all generations."

(Isaiah)
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are My ways higher than your ways,
and My thoughts than your thoughts."
 
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Zoness

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That's fascinating that you do volunteer data processing for them. I did not even know that was possible. The question of origins not only applies to the universe, but to human beings. To what do human beings owe their existence?

I'm part of grid computing efforts sponsored by CERN and Berkeley Open Infrastructure for Networ k Computing. Both software projects are easy enough to join. Reading up at https://boinc.berkeley.edu is a good place to start.

After the formation of planet Earth, approximately 4.3 billion years ago, I understand that human beings came to be from a long process of evolution and natural selection and minute change that happened over many eons as we slowly adapted to our world and food chain. Our current species homo sapiens arose approximately 100,000-200,000 years ago in the horn of Africa, though there has been some research that suggests this could be much further west in Africa in the area of modern day Morocco or Algeria and it may be as far back as 300,000 years.

In short, I accept the consensus on biological evolution and the origin of our species.
 
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AskTheFamily

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Except it's not, God is the only guarantee for guidance while humans, you never know who is guided and who isn't, who really knows what they talking about and who just parrots things on conjecture, and all of them are in need of guidance, and guidance is from God, and hence if you follow a human that is guided, you would be following God's guidance.

You choose who to center your attention to, if you listen to misguided people and center your attention on them, don't blame God at the end of it, when he provided guidance but people refused to listen.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Except it's not, God is the only guarantee for guidance while humans, you never know who is guided and who isn't, who really knows what they talking about and who just parrots things on conjecture, and all of them are in need of guidance, and guidance is from God, and hence if you follow a human that is guided, you would be following God's guidance.

You choose who to center your attention to, if you listen to misguided people and center your attention on them, don't blame God at the end of it, when he provided guidance but people refused to listen.

Still a false dichotomy, mixed with an appeal to authority.

What you are doing is taking the assertions of truth made by PEOPLE, attribute them to a specific deity, and then declare them unassailable in contrast to any differing point of view.

But it's not even about which people to trust.
(Although those who say "I could be wrong, so let's install this system of constant testing to weed out any errors as soon as possible, and try to eliminate bias and ego as factors as much as possible" still strike me as a LOT more reliable than those who claim "I SPEAK WITH THE AUTHORITY OF THE SUPREME BEING OF THE UNIVERSE; ALL WHO DOUBT ME WILL SUFFER UNSPEAKABLE HORRORS FOR THEIR IMPUNITY!!!")

It's about what to rely on: evidence and data, or blind assertions that must be accepted a priori.
The natural sciences did not start out in opposition to religious world views, nor is the divergence between scientific findings on the history of the world and the creation myths of the various religions the result of open enmity between them. In fact, religion PROMOTED learning over vast stretches of history, and was the principal preserver of knowledge.
The only reason is that we know and understand much, MUCH more about the planet, the universe, biology, and just about any other area of knowledge at this point. Creationism doesn't fall flat because a conspiracy sought to oppose it. It's been discarded because all data points in a different direction, on too many different levels to ignore.
 
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Zoness

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Who to believe, God who provides proofs in subtle ways but conclusive guidance or humans who provide theories by conjecture mixed with truth and are in need of guidance.

You seem to be coming from the a priori assumption that God exists. There's no reason to automatically assume that's true, unless you were raised in a religion of your parents, usually Christianity or Islam, which many people are, but that doesn't speak to the truth claim. Religion is literally about conjecture, hence taking things on faith.
 
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