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ONE VERSE TOTALLY DESTROYS FREE WILL !

Tomb523

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If you were in charge, would you want people to obey and love you because you cast a spell on them so they must or would you rather they chose you to love because they recognize your divine providence? God does have the power to make people love and obey and fear him, but to what end? He would rather have His people chose Him as He chose them. Furthermore:


Joshua 24:15
15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

[URL='https://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/3-20.html']
Revelation 3:20

20
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.


Romans 10:9-10

9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.[/URL]
[URL='https://www.biblestudytools.com/passage/?q=romans+10:9-10'] [/URL]

The bible over and over offers us the ability to chose. Taking one single verse and basing an entire doctrine on it, ignoring all the other passages that oppose it, is one of the most dangerous things we can do as Judaeo-Christians. Let the scripture interpret scripture.
 
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Kenny'sID

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One single verse totally destroys free will , and that verse is Ephesians 1(11): In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of him who works ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF " HIS OWN WILL "
If he works ALL THINGS AFTER HIS OWN WILL : it is impossible for us to have our own will , because ALL THINGS are already after his will : how can we have our iwn free will if all things are already after his will : IMPOSSIBLE : CASE CLOSED : END OF STORY !!!

OK, we sin, is that "his own will"? That would make God a sinner if we as sinners are only doing his will. You are basically saying it is not only Gods will that we sin, but God is causing us to sin...and you don't see a problem with that picture?
 
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zoidar

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The reason to fight for free will is, because we have a CHOICE to give our lives to God. We can CHOOSE to do it, or we can CHOOSE to block the work of the Holy Spirit in our heart. The CHOICE is of outmost importance! If you want to be a disciple of Christ you have to CHOOSE to walk with Christ. Discipleship is about CHOOSING to follow. Much worse will the judgement be for those people who trust in theology, but CHOOSE their own way.

Luke 14:11
"For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
 
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Tutorman

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That's the whole point : we merit nothing because we do nothing : Phil 2(13): Stop trying to exalt man with power he does not have

Ah I see you think since God predestined everything and humans have no free will that God predestined someone to murder, rape, and every other sin. If humans have no free will then humans are not responsible for anything we do good or bad.

The logical conclusion of such a poor presentation in the OP means we can all sin and it is not our fault we are not responsible because God predestined all. Well I am off to go sin, thanks OP
 
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Tutorman

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IMO, the original poster is not teachable at the moment, needs affirmation more than truth—and is not interested in discussion. This thread is taking on the aroma of trolling and flaming

Exactly
 
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Marvin Knox

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t appears I have free will but it also appears God's omniscience predestined my entire life, everyone else's life, and everything that would ever happen in the universe since eternities past. Why then am I not a robot and have a conscience and the perception of free will if God chose everything since eternities past?
God's predestining to take place the choices you choose to make is not the same as scripting those choices for you or forcing those choices on you.

No one teaches such things so far as I know - even the most die hard Calvinist - and certainly not the scriptures.
 
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Marvin Knox

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If he works ALL THINGS AFTER HIS OWN WILL : it is impossible for us to have our own will , because ALL THINGS are already after his will : how can we have our iwn free will if all things are already after his will : IMPOSSIBLE : CASE CLOSED : END OF STORY !!!
I am a very strong believer in God's predestination all that takes place in His creation.

Having said that very clearly - I believe your premise is totally wrong.

That verse does not preclude the exercise of free will by men (in the normal sense of the term "free will").

Of course no creature can be totally "free" in the ultimate sense of the word. Only God possesses the attribute of aseity. But, that's another subject.
 
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Colter

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One single verse totally destroys free will , and that verse is Ephesians 1(11): In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of him who works ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF " HIS OWN WILL "
If he works ALL THINGS AFTER HIS OWN WILL : it is impossible for us to have our own will , because ALL THINGS are already after his will : how can we have our iwn free will if all things are already after his will : IMPOSSIBLE : CASE CLOSED : END OF STORY !!!
Then God doesn't have free will either.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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God's predestining to take place
the choices you choose to make is not the same as scripting or forcing those choices on you.

No one teaches such things so far as I know - even the most die hard Calvinist - and certainly not the scriptures.

In scripture the term predestine is to 'pre-bound' or 'pre-limit.' (It has no connotations of destiny, despite the English translation.) There is no contradiction between God pre-bounding the limits of man (e.g. we cannot fly or live without sleep) and the Bible. God presetting boundaries (e.g. the sea can only come this far, believers will be made holy, believers will be adopted as sons, unbelievers will go to hell, etc.) is not at the level of mandating that specific personal choices occur. That would be like claiming God's putting boundaries on the sea is equivalent to God needing to push every molecule of water around personally.

However, if you mean God pre-bounds each choice we could make to only one there would be a problem. Not only would that contradict many scriptures, but it also would make God partially responsible (or fully) for sin. (And at the very least, it would mean God could not justly punish anyone for 'sin' since sin would become a meaningless concept. "Hitting the mark" God sets is righteousness, everywhere else is sin. So if God's 'mark' for someone to hit is mandated sin, that sin would become righteous - and that is contrary to God's character.

For example, imagine person A kidnaps person B. They put B in a hallway with a moving wall behind him (in such a way that if they stop the wall will just push him forward, not kill him.) B must move down the hallway either by 'personal choice (walk)' or 'force (be pushed) - but he only has the true option of forward. He can try to push back on the wall - but it is beyond his physical capabilities to push it backwards or stop it's motion. A explains on intercom that once B crosses a line near the end of the hallway, he will let B go. What he doesn't say is that the same line will trigger a trap and kill victim C. If B can go backwards to the start of the hallway (but he can't) C will survive and A will let them both go.

When B crosses the line (and he will) who will be responsible for the death of C? A, of course! If A claims "B had the *option* not to cross the line, he could have gone backwards or stopped" or "B freely chose of his own will to go forward because he desired to escape" any jury would reject that. A set it up so B had no choice. Even if B killed himself somehow his body would still cross the line and kill C. If B ran towards the exit wanting freedom he'd still cross the line and C would die. There was only one "true" option for B since C had constrained all possibilities towards that one end and B had no means of overcoming those constraints. A can't appeal to B's motives or that B was the one who 'personally' crossed the line to escape responsibility.
 
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Marvin Knox

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In scripture the term predestine is to 'pre-bound' or 'pre-limit.' (It has no connotations of destiny, despite the English translation.) There is no contradiction between God pre-bounding the limits of man (e.g. we cannot fly or live without sleep) and the Bible. God presetting boundaries (e.g. the sea can only come this far, believers will be made holy, believers will be adopted as sons, unbelievers will go to hell, etc.) is not at the level of mandating that specific personal choices occur. That would be like claiming God's putting boundaries on the sea is equivalent to God needing to push every molecule of water around personally.

However, if you mean God pre-bounds each choice we could make to only one there would be a problem. Not only would that contradict many scriptures, but it also would make God partially responsible (or fully) for sin. (And at the very least, it would mean God could not justly punish anyone for 'sin' since sin would become a meaningless concept. "Hitting the mark" God sets is righteousness, everywhere else is sin. So if God's 'mark' for someone to hit is mandated sin, that sin would become righteous - and that is contrary to God's character.
It looks like we finally agree on something - or I certainly hope you see that we do.
For example, imagine person A kidnaps person B. They put B in a hallway with a moving wall behind him (in such a way that if they stop the wall will just push him forward, not kill him.) B must move down the hallway either by 'personal choice (walk)' or 'force (be pushed) - but he only has the option of forward. He can try to push back on the wall - but it is beyond his physical capabilities to push it backwards or stop it's motion. A explains on intercom that once B crosses a line near the end of the hallway, he will let B go. What he doesn't say is that the same line will trigger a trap and kill victim C. If B can go backwards to the start of the hallway (but he can't) C will survive and A will let them both go.

When B crosses the line (and he will) who will be responsible for the death of C? A, of course! If A claims "B had the *option* not to cross the line, he could have gone backwards or stopped" or "B freely chose of his own will to go forward because he desired to escape" any jury would reject that. A set it up so B had no choice. Even if B killed himself somehow his body would still cross the line and kill C. If B ran towards the exit wanting freedom he'd still cross the line and C would die. There was only one "true" option for B since C had constrained all possibilities towards that one end and B had no means of overcoming those constraints. A can't appeal to B's motives to escape responsibility.
Many would maintain that God's disavowal of any complicity in the fall of mankind is just like "A" in your example.

Of course you will say that Adam had a real choice to eat or not eat unlike the faux choice of "B" in the example.

But, come on now, at least admit that God creating a new born innocent couple and placing them in a garden with the slickest trickster who ever lived; placing a tree there who's fruit would kill them - and letting things take their almost inevitable course is pretty much like "A" did.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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It looks like we finally agree on something - or I certainly hope you see that we do.

Many would maintain that God's disavowal of any complicity in the fall of mankind is just like "A" in your example.

Of course you will say that Adam had a real choice to eat or not eat unlike the faux choice of "B" in the example.

But, come on now, at least admit that God creating a new born innocent couple and placing them in a garden with the slickest trickster who ever lived; placing a tree there who's fruit would kill them - and letting things take their almost inevitable course is pretty much like "A" did.

Eve come to ignore what God said and eat the fruit. God did not constrain her choices (it's not like there was no other food in the garden or Satan forced her)

God knowing they would fall, and planning for that by planning to send a redeemer before he ever created them, is very different from God constraining all their abilities abilities and options so they *only* could choose to disobey.

The fall is more like parent Z saying "you can eat any candy from the cupboard except the jellybeans" to his kids. Than cool Joe down the street comes to visit and says , "really? Your parents are just keeping the good stuff away from you because they don't want you to get parent powers. "

And one of the kids thinks that's pretty persuasive so chooses desire over obedience. The kid could have continued to obey.

Satan isn't more powerful than God. He couldn't make them eat. And God certainly didn't force their faces into it or starve them into it.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Eve come to ignore what God said and eat the fruit. God did not constrain her choices (it's not like there was no other food in the garden or Satan forced her)

God knowing they would fall, and planning for that by planning to send a redeemer before he ever created them, is very different from God constraining all their abilities abilities and options so they *only* could choose to disobey.
Do you think I have ever espoused another view than the one you are endorsing?

Where are you getting the idea that I hold to the view you are speaking against?
Satan isn't more powerful than God. He couldn't make them eat. And God certainly didn't force their faces into it or starve them into it.
Why are you addressing these thoughts to me?

Do you think I believe anything other than what you just said?

If so - where are you getting these ideas about my beliefs?:scratch:
 
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2tim_215

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Do you think I have ever espoused another view than the one you are endorsing?

Where are you getting the idea that I hold to the view you are speaking against?

Why are you addressing these thoughts to me?

Do you think I believe anything other than what you just said?

If so - where are you getting these ideas about my beliefs?:scratch:
I think maybe she was just explaining it to the rest of us novices who were mesmerized by the A,B, C, Z explanation. Thank you both.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Do you think I have ever espoused another view than the one you are endorsing?

Where are you getting the idea that I hold to the view you are speaking against?

Why are you addressing these thoughts to me?

Do you think I believe anything other than what you just said?

If so - where are you getting these ideas about my beliefs?:scratch:

I was replying to you, not claiming you personally hold such beliefs. My reply was addressed to you because you stated, "Many would maintain that God's disavowal of any complicity in the fall of mankind is just like "A" in your example." and that "God creating a new born innocent couple and placing them in a garden with the slickest trickster who ever lived; placing a tree there who's fruit would kill them - and letting things take their almost inevitable course is pretty much like "A" did." So my reply was to clarify that the situations are not equivalents, even if some people accuse God of such.

For example, here is John Calvin's view of the fall:

"When, therefore, they perish in their corruption, they but pay the penalties of that misery in which ADAM FELL BY THE PRDESTINATION OF GOD , and dragged his posterity headlong after him. Is he not, then, unjust who so cruelly deludes his creatures? Of course, I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam’s children have fallen BY GODS WILL. And this is what I said to begin with, that we must always at last return to the sole decision of God’s will, the cause of which is hidden in him." - John Calvin (Institutes)

Here John Calvin is wrong on multiple counts. For the first, God expressed his will clearly to Adam and Eve when He instructed them to not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. If He had instructed them to sin, that is, to not hit the target of His will (righteousness) - then God would have sinned in giving them an instruction to violate righteousness. Second, the fall is never blamed as 'God's will' in scripture, but rather on Eve being deceived (by Satan, not God) and Adam's willful disobedience. Third, God curses everyone involved in the act of disobedience: The man, the woman, and the snake. If it was His will that they disobey, He would have no just cause to punish them for they would have acted rightly. Fourth, God did not 'predestine' Adam to sin whether in the Biblical sense of marking boundaries out before hand or the popular misinterpretation of meticulous determined destiny. God created Adam "good." Adam did not have a fallen sin nature before he ate; there was no reason he could not obey all God's instructions. Fifth, God never wills that we sin. We may stumble and sin, but that is not God's will for us.

"It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit." I Thess 4:3-8

How many believers live up to God's will with such perfect self-control and virtue? That doesn't mean that God's will is 'really' for us to fail or that He predestines us to failure.

Or a more general statement on the will of God:

"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will." Rom 12:2

Was Adam's fall good? No - he was cursed for it, tossed from the garden, and all his descendents have been born with corrupted sin natures do to his actions.

Was Adam's fall pleasing? No. It pleased God to provide a redeemer for Adam's fall, but that is not the same thing as death entering the world being 'pleasing.' We know death in the world is not pleasing as God created a plan before time to overcome it in a way that would also bring many sons to glory.

Was Adam's fall perfect? No - it was the opposite - a corruption of nature and man, not a refinement or completion. Jesus' perfection is contrasted with the imperfect Adam.

So even if some may claim that God predestined Adam's fall, or that God willed Adam's disobedience, or that God will's every sinful thought and action of man or constrains the abilities and choices of man so that there is only one true option for every choice - that doesn't make such claims true nor make them harmonize with scripture.
 
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Eloy Craft

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But, come on now, at least admit that God creating a new born innocent couple and placing them in a garden with the slickest trickster who ever lived; placing a tree there who's fruit would kill them - and letting things take their almost inevitable course is pretty much like "A" did.
But that situation in the Garden is the result of the free will of creatures. Wasn't that just how reality unfolded? Surely God didn't predestine His rejection. How can it be true God wants all to be saved if He caused the circumstances that require salvation?
 
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John tower

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If you were in charge, would you want people to obey and love you because you cast a spell on them so they must or would you rather they chose you to love because they recognize your divine providence? God does have the power to make people love and obey and fear him, but to what end? He would rather have His people chose Him as He chose them. Furthermore:


Joshua 24:15
15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”


Revelation 3:20

20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.


Romans 10:9-10

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.


The bible over and over offers us the ability to chose. Taking one single verse and basing an entire doctrine on it, ignoring all the other passages that oppose it, is one of the most dangerous things we can do as Judaeo-Christians. Let the scripture interpret scripture.
Reread the op : you did not understand it
 
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John tower

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But that situation in the Garden is the result of the free will of creatures. Wasn't that just how reality unfolded? Surely God didn't predestine His rejection. How can it be true God wants all to be saved if He caused the circumstances that require salvation?
Romans 8(20&28): All deliberate : all part of a plan : Isa 55(8&9), Prov 3(5&7)
 
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Kersh

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Reread the op : you did not understand it

Or, is it possible that we understand the OP and disagree with you?

To those of us who believe in free will, determinism looks a lot like "God cast a spell" on people to make them obey. Compatibilitism looks a lot like a mental gymnastics exercise to deny free will but still claim that we are accountable. To me, this seems logically incoherent. But, I know many sincere and intelligent believers who hold compatibility views, so I am not prepared to just dismiss it wholesale.

But, I got to this point by having been taught by those whom I disagree with. They didn't simply say, "this verse proves I'm right, case closed" or "you just didn't understand; read it again." Instead, they clearly articulated their points and why they believed it was supported by the entire testimony of Scripture.

A couple of books that I would recommend from a compatibilist perspective (even though I personally disagree with their conclusions):

God's Greater Glory by Bruce Ware
The Doctrine of God by John Frame.

Both do a good job of explaining biblical determinism from a compatibilist perspective in a way that shows proper respect for divergent views.
 
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