Does God punish Christians for sin?

[Chinchilla]

Finally found what I wanted to quote

Hebrews 12:6-11 King James Version (KJV)
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

 

[Cement]

As has been previously posted, He does it through the natural consequences that arise out of sinful behaviour. The first thing that happens when believer sins, he loses fellowship with God. This means that he is out of touch with what the Spirit needs to say to him to continue to guide his thinking and actions. It is only when the person confesses his sin to God that the fellowship and communication is restored.

What about some sin that we do not know about. How can we tell when we have lost our fellowship with God? Is that not the same as having our faith lowered temporarily? Also does the Spirit speak ever speak audibly to a person or is it just through thoughts and memories.

 

[Ancient of Days]

"Does God punish Christians for sinning"?

He doesn't have to, the consequences are already built into those actions. If you choose to sin its a natural progression that consequences will follow...

 

[Traveling teacher]

It is a fine line between
1. the chastisement of the Lord......Hebrews 12:6-11
and
2. punishment of the Lord

David was a man after Gods own heart
but he was severely punished for his sins
or chastised........
hebrews 12:5
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

But anyone who continues in sin and calls themselves a christian is in danger of being cut off.....
1 john 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

 

[Cement]

It is a fine line between
1. the chastisement of the Lord......Hebrews 12:6-11
and
2. punishment of the Lord

David was a man after Gods own heart
but he was severely punished for his sins
or chastised........
hebrews 12:5
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

But anyone who continues in sin and calls themselves a christian is in danger of being cut off.....
1 john 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Wasnt David the same man who killed his friend and took his wife for himself yet God showed him upmost mercy? God didnt kill David he only killed his son for that. In fact God loved David so much so that he didnt punish his son Solomon during his lifetime because of him.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Wasnt David the same man who killed his friend and took his wife for himself yet God showed him upmost mercy? God didnt kill David he only killed his son for that. In fact God loved David so much so that he didnt punish his son Solomon during his lifetime because of him.

Are you talking about punishment on this earth....
or in eternal life vs. eternal hell......

davids punishment/chastisement
2 samuel 12:10
the sword will never depart from your house

2 samuel 12
11 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

God sent davids own son to rape davids wives as punishment.....

Like I said there is very little difference between chastisement and punishment.......
I cant think of anything worse on this earth than what happened to david because of his sin.......

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What about some sin that we do not know about. How can we tell when we have lost our fellowship with God? Is that not the same as having our faith lowered temporarily? Also does the Spirit speak ever speak audibly to a person or is it just through thoughts and memories.

We are not held accountable for things we are not aware of. The Holy Spirit is faithful and He tells us when we get off the beaten path. That is how conviction works. We don't know how conviction comes to us, but it does and when it does, we know. If we study the Bible carefully and have a good idea of God's basic moral code, then we do know when we have broken God's law and have a need to confess our sin to obtain cleansing.

But use your common sense. If the Holy Spirit is living in your spirit, why would He need to speak in an audible voice? Because He is a Spirit, He speaks Spirit to spirit, and then your mind interprets what your spirit receives from the Holy Spirit. But because we are not to believe every spirit, because a demonic lying spirit can also speak to our spirit, we need to test what we are receiving with the written Bible to make sure that what is being received is consistent with it.

The Holy Spirit is not limited in how He can speak to us, and believers have had the experience of having an audible voice speak, especially in an emergency situation where instant action is required. I seem to remember a testimony (I can't remember where I read it, but it is an example of the audible voice), where a climber was walking along a mountain ledge in the fog, and suddenly a voice from nowhere said, "Stop!" He stopped immediately and when the fog cleared, he saw that the path had crumbled and if he had continued he would have fallen hundreds of metres down the mountain.

At times we can get an insistent sense that there is something wrong with the direction we are going, and this is enough for us to rethink. Then we realise that if we had made the decision we were going to make, it would have ended up in disaster. There are others who had a premonition not to take a certain flight on an airplane, and found out that the plane had crashed with no survivors.

No one is missing out on God's best for them if they never hear an audible voice.

 

[Cement]

Are you talking about punishment on this earth....
or in eternal life vs. eternal hell......

davids punishment/chastisement
2 samuel 12:10
the sword will never depart from your house

2 samuel 12
11 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

God sent davids own son to rape davids wives as punishment.....

Like I said there is very little difference between chastisement and punishment.......
I cant think of anything worse on this earth than what happened to david because of his sin.......

I assume this is what David feared when talking to Nathan in 2 Samuel 12:13. Did David fear a spiritual death as in he would become cut off from God? Nathan said his sin would be taken away this makes sense since God still punished David with Absaloms rebellion. David was in fact punished on the earth but spared eternally.

 

[Cement]

We are not held accountable for things we are not aware of. The Holy Spirit is faithful and He tells us when we get off the beaten path. That is how conviction works. We don't know how conviction comes to us, but it does and when it does, we know. If we study the Bible carefully and have a good idea of God's basic moral code, then we do know when we have broken God's law and have a need to confess our sin to obtain cleansing.

But use your common sense. If the Holy Spirit is living in your spirit, why would He need to speak in an audible voice? Because He is a Spirit, He speaks Spirit to spirit, and then your mind interprets what your spirit receives from the Holy Spirit. But because we are not to believe every spirit, because a demonic lying spirit can also speak to our spirit, we need to test what we are receiving with the written Bible to make sure that what is being received is consistent with it.

The Holy Spirit is not limited in how He can speak to us, and believers have had the experience of having an audible voice speak, especially in an emergency situation where instant action is required. I seem to remember a testimony (I can't remember where I read it, but it is an example of the audible voice), where a climber was walking along a mountain ledge in the fog, and suddenly a voice from nowhere said, "Stop!" He stopped immediately and when the fog cleared, he saw that the path had crumbled and if he had continued he would have fallen hundreds of metres down the mountain.

At times we can get an insistent sense that there is something wrong with the direction we are going, and this is enough for us to rethink. Then we realise that if we had made the decision we were going to make, it would have ended up in disaster. There are others who had a premonition not to take a certain flight on an airplane, and found out that the plane had crashed with no survivors.

No one is missing out on God's best for them if they never hear an audible voice.

I asked this question to you because the Holy Spirit has spoken to me with an audible voice. I could hear it in my ear. I didnt understand what it meant at that time I just thought it was something weird but years later he made me remember what he told me and it all made sense. I believe he did it because I was a new Christian with little faith at the time and it was a very long time ago and since being a grown Christian I know more fully when God asks me something he speaks within my soul.

 

[NBB]

In regards to the title of this thread, God will not punish otherwise faithful Christians, but He will discipline us as He sees fit.

"For whom the Lord loves He corrects,
Just as a father the son in whom he delights." Proverbs 3:12 NKJV

Yes i see a lot of christians say this and i agree, God does not punish us. But he does disciplines us. I don't think our actions (there are consequences but) can make God react and just punish us just like that. Jesus is our advocate before the father.

 

[NBB]

What about some sin that we do not know about. How can we tell when we have lost our fellowship with God? Is that not the same as having our faith lowered temporarily? Also does the Spirit speak ever speak audibly to a person or is it just through thoughts and memories.

What i have experienced: God communicate to us spiritually you need to be born again to be able to receive this i guess, he just let you 'feel' or perceive an idea, a little touch from him that you internally understand. In my case there is usually no words involved just something like 'revealed' inside of me that let you know what God is saying. It can be hard to describe. I'm not saying you can't hear him but i never experienced that, seem to be rare among christians too.

 

[Cement]

What i have experienced: God communicate to us spiritually you need to be born again to be able to receive this i guess, he just let you 'feel' or perceive an idea, a little touch from him that you internally understand. In my case there is usually no words involved just something like 'revealed' inside of me that let you know what God is saying. It can be hard to describe. I'm not saying you can't hear him but i never experienced that, seem to be rare among christians too.

In my case its usually a play on my memory. Usually God would ask me something by a thought in my mind and I would respond in a way he already knew I would. He would then let me remember a time in my life or a certain memory. For example I would often wonder why there are so much hypocritical people around me. God would then answer me by reminding me of a time when I was hypocritical and that i should not judge others ect.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What i have experienced: God communicate to us spiritually you need to be born again to be able to receive this i guess, he just let you 'feel' or perceive an idea, a little touch from him that you internally understand. In my case there is usually no words involved just something like 'revealed' inside of me that let you know what God is saying. It can be hard to describe. I'm not saying you can't hear him but i never experienced that, seem to be rare among christians too.

The problem here is that nine out of every ten impressions that we get are from the world, flesh or the devil, so we have to be very careful and not accept every impression at face value. What I have learned is that everything needs to be tested against either the express instructions or the principles of written Scripture. We need to know the differences in the way holy people expressed their faith between the Old and New Testaments so we don't confuse the two. This takes a careful study of the Bible, and as the Scripture says, it is through use and experience that we are able to discern between good and evil. It is the same with dealing with impressions. Through a thorough knowledge of the Bible and the principles about how God communicates with people, we learn to distinguish impressions that come from the Holy Spirit as distinct from some other spirit.

I maintain the written Bible as the solid foundation of how God has communicated to mankind, because of the references where God has expressly instructed holy men to keep a written record of what He has said to them. The written Law was to be kept in a space on the side of the Ark of the Covenant and read by the priests to the people at least once a year. Because God Himself gave the instruction to write things down makes the Bible the principal authority for Christian life and practice, and impressions need to be tested against it.

Jesus used the written Scriptures to support His authority for many of the statements He made. This is because He made the written Scriptures His foundation and never departed from the principles contained in them. Paul often quoted the Scriptures to back up his teaching, because he saw those Scriptures as his foundation, and if we compare his teaching with the principles of the Law and the Prophets, you will see that he acted and taught in complete harmony with those principles.

I am saying this not to put you off receiving impressions, but for you to be careful and discriminating as to the source of them.

 

[Bartek Swierczek]

.

 

[NBB]

The problem here is that nine out of every ten impressions that we get are from the world, flesh or the devil, so we have to be very careful and not accept every impression at face value. What I have learned is that everything needs to be tested against either the express instructions or the principles of written Scripture. We need to know the differences in the way holy people expressed their faith between the Old and New Testaments so we don't confuse the two. This takes a careful study of the Bible, and as the Scripture says, it is through use and experience that we are able to discern between good and evil. It is the same with dealing with impressions. Through a thorough knowledge of the Bible and the principles about how God communicates with people, we learn to distinguish impressions that come from the Holy Spirit as distinct from some other spirit.

I maintain the written Bible as the solid foundation of how God has communicated to mankind, because of the references where God has expressly instructed holy men to keep a written record of what He has said to them. The written Law was to be kept in a space on the side of the Ark of the Covenant and read by the priests to the people at least once a year. Because God Himself gave the instruction to write things down makes the Bible the principal authority for Christian life and practice, and impressions need to be tested against it.

Jesus used the written Scriptures to support His authority for many of the statements He made. This is because He made the written Scriptures His foundation and never departed from the principles contained in them. Paul often quoted the Scriptures to back up his teaching, because he saw those Scriptures as his foundation, and if we compare his teaching with the principles of the Law and the Prophets, you will see that he acted and taught in complete harmony with those principles.

I am saying this not to put you off receiving impressions, but for you to be careful and discriminating as to the source of them.

Thanks for your post.
Yes definetely, i try to be very strict in what i perceive to be from God, i don't like to be cheated or to act on something that is from my flesh or own thought.
If i cannot 'detect' that it is from God or if i have doubts then i leave it alone.

 

[V37]

I think that divine punishment can be self-inflicted (God leaves us alone) or God-inflicted (he intervenes to curse even as he can intervene to bless). Although there is no ‘ultimate’ condemnation (katakrima) for Christians, in our mortal life at times we righty deserve condemnation/rebuke, even need it. Punishment can be educational (Heb.12) but can be protective (the sinner is removed from the mortal). IMO no Christian will be eternally excluded after death, but any Christian can be eternally excluded before death, ie living non-family life. To clarify, both ‘eternal life’ and ‘eternal hell’ or options before and after death, the ‘eternal’ bit (aiōnios) carrying the basic idea of divine spirituality rather than duration (Jhn.17:3). I accept that Heb.6/10 bespeak genuine Christians who can be cut off from (dead to) Christ through deliberate sin attitude, but repentance back into eternal life can remain an option—prodigals may return if they will humble themselves for the journey. The essential nature of the punishment in the mortal is the relational shadow between us & God. In short the destination is fixed, but the journey is fluid.

PS: “adoptive sons” would be better as “adoptive children”.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

PS: In some if not all the references, "sons" is original, is better, is masculine noun, and sons are treated different than daughters,
so "sons" is correct.

 

[justbyfaith]

Amos 3:2, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Hebrews 12:6, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Galatians 6:7-8, Be not deceived, God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption: but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

 

[V37]

PS: In some if not all the references, "sons" is original, is better, is masculine noun, and sons are treated different than daughters,
so "sons" is correct.

OK, just read Don Carson's The Inclusive Language Debate, where Poythress/Grudem are scotched on that one. I merely added it as a PS, not to detract the thread. Greek works by a singular huios meaning masculine, son, while huioi (plural) is not per se gender specific, and biblically women could be inheritors. But as said, a gentle PS for whoever has ears to hear.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God does punish those who..... twist His Word (no debate needed).

But anyway I was not referring to inheritance, but discipline/ chastisement in TORAH from Yahweh and Yahshua et al,
which is different, on purpose, for sons vs daughters,
perfectly so in Yahweh's Plan and Purpose and Word, which is not using inclusive language that the enemy is tempting many with.