Soul goes to heaven before Resurrection? Soul goes to heaven after resurrection?

[MartyF]

Poor translation? I don’t know where you’re getting your source from, but the literal translation is:

and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
John 3:13

You mean "word for word" - not literal. Word for word is not always the best translation type - especially for cookie cutter reading of the bible.

 

[Dan the deacon]

It's a catch 22 poll. The fact is that, for a person that KNOWS the existence of a separate soul is a pagan doctrine and not based on anything in the Bible, it is impossible to select either answer without lying. Maybe you should have included a 3rd answer, "Man does not have a soul. Man IS a soul."

As I understand your post, you are right in saying that our resurrection will be like that of Christ, except for the time.

The truth is that no one except Christ has EVER gone to Heaven, according to scripture.

According to the SDA group.

 

[parousia70]

parousia70's Post #44, quoted in it's entirety

QFT?
Excellent.

 

[claninja]

You mean "word for word" - not literal

No, I mean literal.

How come no other versions interprets John 3:13 the way that the NLT does?


New International Version
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

New Living Translation
No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.

English Standard Version
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Berean Study Bible
No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.

Berean Literal Bible
And no one has gone up into heaven except the One having come down out of heaven, the Son of Man.

New American Standard Bible
"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Christian Standard Bible
No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.

Contemporary English Version
No one has gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from there.

Good News Translation
And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.

International Standard Version
"No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

NET Bible
No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.

New Heart English Bible
And no one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And no man has gone up to Heaven except he who went down from Heaven: The Son of Man - he who is in Heaven.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
No one has gone to heaven except the Son of Man, who came from heaven.

New American Standard 1977
“And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And no one has ascended up to the heaven but he that came down from the heaven, even the Son of man, who is in the heaven.

King James 2000 Bible
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.

American King James Version
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

American Standard Version
And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

Darby Bible Translation
And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

English Revised Version
And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.

Webster's Bible Translation
And no man hath ascended to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.

Weymouth New Testament
There is no one who has gone up to Heaven, but there is One who has come down from Heaven, namely the Son of Man whose home is in Heaven.

World English Bible
No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.

Young's Literal Translation
and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Word for word is not always the best translation type

Is this your opinion, or is this a scholarly fact of biblical interpretation?

It is my opinion that scripture translation should be as close to the original, not a paraphrased interpretation that for some reason only the NLT provides.[/QUOTE]

 

[MartyF]

literal

LOL,

You say you meant literal, but then give a "word for word" translation. Do you know what the difference is?

NLT is not a paraphrase, it is a translation.

The cookie cutter approach of reading the Bible along with a "word for word" translation allows people to promote an incorrect view of what is being said.

Obviously, Jesus was not saying that no-one has gone to heaven before. After all, there's that incidence in Genesis, 2 Kings and so on. However, someone cut this passage out with a razor blade in order to prove something which isn't true.

Languages are not one-to-one functions. "Word-for-word" has some advantages, but also has tremendous disadvantages - especially by those that quote passages out of context.

There are over 90 Bible scholars involved in the NLT. You're welcome to your opinion.

Marty

 

[claninja]

LOL,

You say you meant literal, but then give a "word for word" translation. Do you know what the difference is?

Word-for-word is a synonym of literal with regards to translation. So I’m not sure what you are talking about Marty.

lit·er·al
ˈlidərəl,ˈlitrəl/
adjective

1. 1.
   taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.
   "dreadful in its literal sense, full of dread"
2. 2.
   (of a translation) representing the exact words of the original text.
   synonyms: word-for-word, verbatim, letter-for-letter; More
   
   

   NLT is not a paraphrase, it is a translation.

   
   The NLT paraphrases John 3:13, as it is a rewording of the passage. It is not word for word.
   
   

   The cookie cutter approach of reading the Bible along with a "word for word" translation allows people to promote an incorrect view of what is being said.

   I would argue word for word or literal helps to prevent introducing meaning that is not there. For example John 3:13 of the NLT.
   
   

   Obviously, Jesus was not saying that no-one has gone to heaven before. After all, there's that incidence in Genesis, 2 Kings and so on. However, someone cut this passage out with a razor blade in order to prove something which isn't true.

   
   Which verses specifically are being ‘cut out’ of the Bible? Here is what I posted in response to the mention of OT saints immediately to heaven before Jesus 1st coming. copied from another post: John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Jesus literally states no one has ever gone into heaven except himself, who came from heaven. As scripture does not contradict itself, we should probably reconcile the rest of scripture to words of Christ, who is the fullness of God.
3. 
   Your argument is that Elijah and Moses must have went to heaven because they appear in the transfiguration.
   
   1.) The transfiguration was a vision: Matthew 17:9: And as they are coming down from the mount, Jesus charged them, saying, ‘Say to no one THE VISION, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise
   2.) Even if it wasn’t just a vision, and Moses and Elijah were really there, scripture does not say they came from heaven. As such we could easily argue that they came from sheol to see the messiah.
   Elijah was taken to ‘heaven’ (שָׁמַ֫יִם). The Hebrew word for heaven can mean sky. Hence, it makes sense why the servants want to search for Elijah after he was taken away.
   
   2 kings 2:16 And they said to him, “Behold now, there are with your servants fifty strong men. Please let them go and seek your master. It may be that the Spirit of the Lord has caught him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley.” And he said, “You shall not send
   
   Additionally, clearly after Elijah had been taken to ‘heaven’, he wrote a letter. This lends to more evidence that Elijah was not, in fact, in heaven, but was likely taken away like Philip in acts 8:39
   
   2 Chronicles 21:12 And a letter came to him from ELIJAH the prophet, saying, “Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father, ‘Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, or in the ways of Asa king of Judah
   
   Hebrews 11, clearly states that ALL THESE (Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Enoch…….) did not receive what was promised:
   
   Hebrews 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised
   
   And a part from the body of Christ, they would not be made perfect. Unless you believe they were in heaven before they were made perfect?
   
   Hebrews 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
   
   Paul clearly addresses the concerns of those who have lost believing loved ones. The Thessalonians were worried that those who have died will miss the resurrection at the coming of Christ. If their souls were in heaven already, why would they be worried?
   
   1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope
   
   
   
   

   There are over 90 Bible scholars involved in the NLT. You're welcome to your opinion.

   
   There are hundreds of scholars that worked on many translations of the Bible. And yet none of the others translate John 3:13 like the NLT does, how come?

 

[ac28]

It’s possible and you can answer without lying, it just depends on how you define soul. If you state man is soul, does the man go to heaven before or after the resurrection?

There is no separate soul. The only way anyone will go to heaven is by one of the resurrections. No resurrections have occurred yet. The first will be the out-resurrection (out from the others that are saved) which is the prize of the high calling of today's Gentile church.

Although I have no rock-hard evidence, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to show that only those saints that see, believe and claim the truth of the new church found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. In Paul's prayer in Ephesians 1:16-23 , Paul prays that God will give you the understanding to SEE the hope of your calling.

I don't believe that God will open one's eyes to the truth found in Eph, Col, etc., unless one totally gives up, or attempts to give up all of the 100% Jewish doctrine from the Acts period. Why should He take someone to heaven who believes he'll be in the New Jerusalem? Why resurrect someone at the Appearing that believes he'll be in the rapture. Why would Paul pray that people SEE the hope of their calling to heaven if that calling were automatic. Then there's 2Tim 2:15, a command that people must rightly divide (correctly cut) God's Word if they want to be approved unto God. This division between what belongs to Israel and what belongs to we Gentiles is the only cut we need to satisfy that command. That cut is between the end of Acts and the start of Ephesians, Paul's 1st book written after Acts.

Nothing that was given to Israel, except Christ and salvation, was ever given to the Gentiles. If none of these things were given to the Gentiles, at the same time they were given to Israel, what make you think the Gentiles have any right to claim them now?

 

[ac28]

Man is body, spirit and soul.

That's what the pagans and the ignorant denominational preachers say. The Bible says nothing of the kind. According to the Bible,
Gen 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

How do you interpret that verse?

 

[parousia70]

Nothing that was given to Israel, except Christ and salvation, was ever given to the Gentiles. If none of these things were given to the Gentiles, at the same time they were given to Israel, what make you think the Gentiles have any right to claim them now?

Incorrect.
Gentiles were given, through Christ, FULL CITIZENSHIP in the commonwealth of Israel:

"Ye were...aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise...[but Christ] hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens." (Eph 2:12,19)

Gentile converts to christianity go from being "foreigners of the commonwealth of Israel" to "fellow citizens."

I realize just how devastating this Biblical fact is to your "Two peoples of God" Doctrine, but all you need to do is bring your view in line with scripture and you'll be fine.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Prior to Jesus, no one had ever gone into heaven:
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Jesus, upon death, gave up his spirit to God:
Luke 23:46 Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit

Even though Jesus gave up his spirit to God, it does not mean he ascended to heaven right after his death:
John 20:17 Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”

If Jesus did not ascend to the Father until AFTER his resurrection, why would we ascend to the Father BEFORE the resurrection?

This is my understanding that may help some:

There are 3 Heavens:
2 Corinthians 12:1-4
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven
1. first heaven - PARADISE, or abraham's bosom
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise
Luke 16:22
was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom
2. second heaven - God's current home
acts 7:55....the vision Stephen saw before he died
gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
3. NEW JERUSALEM
Revelation 21:1-2

and 2 hells:
1. first hell(first death) - Sheol or HADES
Luke 16:19-31.....rich man and lazurus
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away...they will not also come to this place of torment.’

2. 2nd hell - lake of fire
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell(hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[parousia70]

2. second heaven - God's current home
acts 7:55....the vision Stephen saw before he died
gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
3. NEW JERUSALEM
Revelation 21:1-2

So when the writer of Hebrews told His flocks they had already come to the New, Heavenly Jerusalem, the City of the Living God, in an innumerable company of Angels.... you are Saying God wasn't really dwelling there? (Hebrews 12:22)

 

[Bilo]

Prior to Jesus, no one had ever gone into heaven:
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Jesus, upon death, gave up his spirit to God:
Luke 23:46 Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit

Even though Jesus gave up his spirit to God, it does not mean he ascended to heaven right after his death:
John 20:17 Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”

If Jesus did not ascend to the Father until AFTER his resurrection, why would we ascend to the Father BEFORE the resurrection?

What a great question.

The answer is all souls went to Sheol prior to the resurrection. Sheol was divided into two parts. One, commonly referred to as Abraham's bosom, or paradise, and the other Hades (see Luke 16:22-23).
It was the souls in paradise that were freed and taken to Heaven by Jesus after the crucifixion (see Eph. 4:7-10). The gates of Hades could not hold those Jesus freed, but the souls that are condemned waiting judgement at the White Throne are still there.

 

[parousia70]

It was the souls in paradise that were freed and taken to Heaven by Jesus after the crucifixion (see Eph. 4:7-10).

This is an all too common misreading of Ephesians 4:7-10

The "captivity" that a triumphant King would "lead captive" was his bound enemies. The victorious king would lead a parade through town, marching his bound prisoners in a public display to shame them and gloat over them (Col 1:15 uses this concept too). That is why bible expositors discussing Eph 4:8 often point to the broken dominion of the enemies Satan (1 Jn 3:8; Col 1:15), sin (Rom 6:14), and death (Rom 6:9 ) -- these were the "captivity" that Christ led away as his captives. So the "captivity" one leads captive are one's enemies who have been triumphed over. This notion is also the sense of Psalm 68:17-18 concerning the exodus, Sinai and the defeat of the pagans in the promised land.

Additionally, in the spectacle of the public parade the King receives gifts in homage (Ps 68:18,29,31) and he generously distributes the spoils of war to his own citizens (Ps 68:19). With Christ, he distributes the spoils of his war unto the Church in the form of the charismata given unto mankind, making them Chosen apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers with him (Eph 4:8,11)

Resurrection is the ONLY vehicle by which the dead are RAISED from Hades into the Heights of Heaven.

 

[Hillsage]

What a great question.

The answer is all souls went to Sheol prior to the resurrection. Sheol was divided into two parts. One, commonly referred to as Abraham's bosom, or paradise, and the other Hades (see Luke 16:22-23). It was the souls in paradise that were freed

It was "spirits" which "formerly DID NOT OBEY in the days of Noah" which Jesus preached to....not "souls". WE are triune beings. Spirit/Soul/Body. Our spirit is made in the image of God, which is spirit. "God IS spirit" John 4:24.

1PE 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,

and taken to Heaven by Jesus after the crucifixion (see Eph. 4:7-10). The gates of Hades could not hold those Jesus freed, but the souls that are condemned waiting judgement at the White Throne are still there.

Eph 4 says nothing about who or what went to heaven. I'd say all spirits he preached to went to heaven. And the "gifts he gave unto men in Eph 4:8 was for men (spirit/soul/body). and according to verse 11 they were ministry' gifts of Apostles and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;' so they could minister to other human beings.

 

[ac28]

What a great question.

The answer is all souls went to Sheol prior to the resurrection. Sheol was divided into two parts. One, commonly referred to as Abraham's bosom, or paradise, and the other Hades (see Luke 16:22-23).
It was the souls in paradise that were freed and taken to Heaven by Jesus after the crucifixion (see Eph. 4:7-10). The gates of Hades could not hold those Jesus freed, but the souls that are condemned waiting judgement at the White Throne are still there.

Lazarus and the Rich Man was nearly identical to what the Pharisees believed about Hell, from their traditions - see Josephus' "Discourse on Hades". Christ was satirically insulting the Pharisees by showing then how stupid they were for believing such garbage. And, of course, it was a parable, in a line of other parables Christ told, which is defined as a ficticious story.

There is no mention of any sin or wrong doing in the passage. The only explanation given for the positions both were in is in vs 25
" But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

As a method of suppressing the complaints of the poor, the Pharisees told the poor and invalid that, when they died, everything would do a 180 degree swing and they would then get all the blessings and good things. Christ's genius turned the tables on the Pharisees by saying if the poor that had all bad things during their life and, after death, got all the good things, the opposite must also be true. Those who had all good things during their life, would get nothing but bad things after they die.

If any part of this were true, it would be repeated several times in the OT. But, no, not a word. It's obviously a fictitious story, like ALL parables are. That nonsense about it being a true story because names were used is just that - nonsense.

I've always thought that there are people out there that relish the idea that those who are less pious than they are deserve to spend eternity being tortured by out loving god, even though Christ died for the sins of every one who has ever lived, including unbelievers. Some idiots believe that, if a person doesn't believe in hell, they are not saved.

 

[ac28]

For Traveling Teacher

The 3rd Heaven will be the 3rd Heaven in time. It will be the New Heaven. The 2nd Heaven exists today. The 1st Heaven, in Gen 1:1, existed until Satan's fall.

The comma in Lk 23:43, is in the wrong place, It must be after Today and not before. This is an idiom that occurs 42 times in Deuteronomy, all of which have the comma in the right place. I used that idiom many times, especially with kids, "I'm telling you right now, COMMA........! or, I'm telling you today, COMMA......!

The New Jerusalem absolutely is NOT Heaven. It comes down out of Heaven and attaches to the New Earth. There is no scripture that says it will ever move from that spot. It will be a permanent part of the New Earth.

 

[redleghunter]

Some background:

Soul, the Hebrews and the Inner man

A. Noun. nepesh (5315), “soul; self; life; person; heart.” This is a very common term in both ancient and modern Semitic languages. It occurs over 780 times in the Old Testament and is evenly distributed in all periods of the text with a particularly high frequency in poetic passages. The basic meaning is apparently related to the rare verbal form, napash. The noun refers to the essence of life, the act of breathing, taking breath. However, from that concrete concept, a number of more abstract meanings were developed. In its primary sense the noun appears in its first occurrence in Gen. 1:20: “the moving creature that hath life,” and in its second occurrence in Gen. 2:7: “living soul.” However, in over 400 later occurrences it is translated “soul.”

While this serves to make sense in most passages, it is an unfortunate mistranslation of the term. The real difficulty of the term is seen in the inability of almost all English translations to find a consistent equivalent or even a small group of high-frequency equivalents for the term. The KJV alone uses over 28 different English terms for this one Hebrew word. The problem with the English term “soul” is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew system of thought does not include the combination or opposition of the terms “body” and “soul,” which are really Greek and Latin in origin. The Hebrew contrasts two other concepts which are not found in the Greek and Latin tradition: “the inner self” and “the outer appearance” or, as viewed in a different context, “what one is to oneself” as opposed to “what one appears to be to one’s observers.” The inner person is nepesh, while the outer person, or reputation, is shem, most commonly translated “name.” In narrative or historical passages of the Old Testament, nepesh can be translated as “life” or “self,” as in Lev. 17:11: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for [yourselves].…” Needless to say, the reading “soul” is meaningless in such a text. (Vines Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, location 12557 digital copy, W.E Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White Jr.) (Also found at: Google Books)​

As clearly delineated above from Vines, the Hebrews did have a concept of and ‘outer appearance/outer person’ (shem) and an ‘inner self’ (nepesh). This will prove to be important in the upcoming segment to refute the notion that the NT writers were either skewed with the influence of Greek philosophy and/or the Koine Greek itself was unsuitable to transliterate this Hebrew concept. The apostles were Hebrews and rooted in the understanding of the Old Testament (OT) word meanings and concepts. The inner self vs. outer person was used often by the apostle Paul in his epistles (more later). Therefore, we can at the very minimum look to the Hebrews of the OT and early church having a dichotomist view of the nature of mankind. A material outer person and immaterial inner person or self.


What is the dichotomist view?


The dichotomist affirms that the Bible teaches that man's constituent elements are the material body and the immaterial soul (or spirit) - two ontologically distinct entities - which are in a mysterious, vital union and interact in what Berkhof calls the "union of life" (Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, Mich: Eerdmans, 1932, p. 195). In other words, he is neither pure matter alone nor pure spirit alone but a wonderful duality-in-unity and unity-in-duality. The scriptural support for this view includes the following verses:

Genesis 2:7: the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath [neshamah] of life, and man became a living being.

Ecclesiastes 12:7: The dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. (This seems to be a commentary on Genesis 2:7.)

Matthew 10:28: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Here our Lord makes it plain that a person has an entity that men may kill. He calls it the body (soma). But he has another entity that men cannot kill. He calls it the soul (psyche). By his use of the kai kai, construction in the second half of the verse, which grammatically means "both and," Jesus clearly teaches that man's constituent parts are two, namely, "body" and "soul." This is the reason he could say to the dying thief, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43; emphasis added).

2 Corinthians 5:1-10: Now we know that if the earthly tent [the body] we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God [that is, the resurrection body] we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we [that is, our souls] will not be found naked as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord we would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

Philippians 1:21-24: For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
(Source The Dichotomist view)

 

[redleghunter]

More:

What is the teaching from the New Testament?

As we can see from the cited Scriptures from the previous post, both Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul knew and taught the Hebrew concept of the outer material person and immaterial inner self. If the above is not convincing and one wants to look for ‘key words’ used we only need to examine the epistles of the apostle Paul who was “circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee…(Philippians 3:5):


Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:16-17)


Note, what is very important is Paul’s use of the ‘outer’ and ‘inner’ man above leads into 2 Corinthians 5:1-10:


For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the bodywe are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:1-10)

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions,having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for thatis very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again. ( Philippians 1:21-26)

The above was necessary to note as Paul was writing the epistle there were no verses or chapter numbers. The conversation flowed and we must take 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 in light of 2 Corinthians 4:16-17). Back to passages on the ‘inner man.’


For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. (Ephesians 3:14-19)

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:21-25)

In the passages above Paul is clearly demonstrating his knowledge of the Hebrew understanding of “outer man” and “inner man.” He is communicating this to both a Jewish and Gentile audience. To dispel the notion that Paul is leaning on Greek philosophy, the Greeks rejected the notion of a bodily resurrection of the dead. It was an alien concept to them and why some scoffed at Paul in Acts 17. However, how did we get to a basic Hebrew concept of inner self and outer self and the teachings of the apostle Paul cited above? Progressive revelation:

Progressive revelation may be defined as the process of God's own disclosure of Himself and His plan given to man throughout history by means of nature (Rom. 1:18-21; Ps. 19), providential dealings (Rom. 8:28), preservation of the universe (Col. 1:17), miracles (John 2:11), direct communication (Acts 22:17-21), Christ Himself (John 1:14) and through the Bible (1 John 5:39).

https://www.theopedia.com/progressive-revelation​

 

[redleghunter]

2 corinthians 5 is about the resurrection, of which the spirit is the guarantee:

He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Corinthians 5:5&version=ESV

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 1:13-14&version=ESV

Indeed the Hope is always the resurrection. However, Paul mentions not being in these bodies and present with the Lord AFTER he discusses our ultimate state.

 

[redleghunter]

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John's Gospel supposedly was written late, about 50 years after the death of Christ and 25 years after 2Cor 5:8 was written, the absent, present verse that everybody misinterprets. There has been NOTHING since then to indicate that this has changed. No one except Christ has ever ascended to Heaven, just like the Bible says. Everybody that has ever died is still dead and is still in hades, the grave. Those saints that are dead, waiting for a resurrection, are said to be asleep, a figure of speech. To them, however, it will be like sleep, in that no time has seemed to have passed.

When the Bible is silent, we also should be silent.

Where is Jesus Christ now?
Where did Paul say we would be when we are not present with these mortal bodies?

Answer the questions and we have well the answer.