Convicted Catholic Archbishop sentenced

[Zoii]

St paul was instrumental in getting christians killed for their belief.
Our Lord forgave him. Gave him another chance.

It is not ours to judge him as a priest.
Does it make him unfit to be a cloistered religious - clearly not

Defrocked or not, I doubt if he will be trusted to supervise anyone at the diocese again. So unable to repeat the same mistakes.
Not least the church insurers will have something to say about that!

All should recognise that most of these cases refer to long ago history.
To have even the most minor role in the catholic church now involves training on such matters, That was not a part of anyones training in any organisation 20 or more years ago.

So what exactly are the indicators for defrocking a priest?

 

[Dave G.]

If this guy were not clergy but instead a lay person he would not even be any longer considered for any form of service and may be ex communicated..

We are talking about sexual assault of children within a religious body, exactly where the children should feel safest. It's not just any secular organization. We aren't talking about anything holy here, in fact it's demonic and you don't dance with devils. And this guy basically condoned it. If anything he will be held more accountable than those below him in the holy spiritual realm ( I'll let those interested find the scripture on this). This is horrible, we talk about a pathetic bunch of adult men, even consider their effectiveness to continue when they never were capable to begin with. And hanging in the balance is marred kids for life. This is unfathomable to me that a bunch of people in the name of a religious system could be so devout and yet so deceived at the very same time.

 

[creslaw]

As far as I am aware. Certainly, as it relates to Father Fletcher and the rape of a ten year old boy. The The allegations concerning Fathers McAlinden and Denham did not culminate in charges.

My query is related solely to Wilson. You have stated that Wilson knowingly aided and abetted Fletcher in sexually abusing children ... is that a judicial finding or just someone's opinion?

 

[Mountainmike]

So what exactly are the indicators for defrocking a priest?

There are none.

Which is why there is the assumption that the church has not acted.
But benedict certainly defrocked hundreds for involvement in child crimes.

I cannot speak for whether any of those cases were cases of mismanagement/ cover up, rather than the abuse itself.
One of the thigns to recognise is the nature of serial abusers. Who are known to be domineering sociopaths, who no doubt try to lie and blackmail "take you down with me" and suck others into their web of deceit
The training of the average cleric was no match for them, who end in so deep they cannot get out. I am sure it is better now.

It is all to easy for armchair critics with the benefit of 20 20 hindsight to make it sound obvious,which it will not have been at the time.
As witness this thread.

 

[Zoii]

My query is related solely to Wilson. You have stated that Wilson knowingly aided and abetted Fletcher in sexually abusing children ... is that a judicial finding or just someone's opinion?

He was aware of Fletchers criminal activity. he did nothing to stop it. The father was transferred to another parish with Wilsons knowledge where that activity continued.

Aiding and abetting is a term from a victim and I take your point to stick to court-terms only. The victims use of the terms was in reference to the fact that by Wilsons concealment of the ongoing crimes, he participated in collusion. That said I take your point and shall edit .

 

[Paidiske]

Another important issue.
This case makes that archbishop a very bad manager, wholly unfit to run a diocese, he is clearly someone that has an ostrich mentality, and could not take hard decisions.
I am sure he regrets all those decisions now.

But Does it actually make him a bad priest?

All of us in parish ministry have an oversight role. If he couldn't respond appropriately as a bishop, could we trust he could respond appropriately to a lay volunteer in a parish? I can guarantee there would be plenty of situations - not necessarily this grave - where he would need to be able to deal with conflict, discipline and so forth, and this suggests that his capacity to do that appropriately was not fully developed.

Yes, I think it does make him a bad priest, actually.

 

[creslaw]

He was aware of Fletchers criminal activity. he did nothing to stop it. The father was transferred to another parish with Fletchers knowledge where that activity continued.

Aiding and abetting is a term from a victim and I take your point to stick to court-terms only. The victims use of the terms was in reference to the fact that by Wilsons concealment of the ongoing crimes, he participated in collusion. That said I take your point and shall edit .

I suggest it is also unsafe to claim that Wilson had any knowledge of Fletcher's continued abuse.

Wilson did not report the complaints he heard in the 1970's, and says that he subsequently forgot about them.

It is easy in the very heightened awareness today of the psychological damage caused by sexual abuse, to find Wilson's forgetting these incidents as unbelievable. Certainly that was the finding of the judge.

As a young man of Wilson's age in the early 70's, I am not sure if I had been a jury member in this case (there was no jury) whether I would have been able to conclude that without reasonable doubt.

 

[Mountainmike]

Which makes it even sadder, it happens in ALL organisations and churches that deal with children, on a scale commensurate only with the size of the organisation: the anglican church facing similar problems now.
And all secular organistations that deal with children such as orphanages, scouts and so on have had the same problem. Only today an ex premier football coach has been imprisoned for serial child abuse.
Many sports teams have had similar problems.


Clearly this archbishopwas untrained ( which would not happen now) and unfit to deal with the problems his supervision role presented.
That will be fixed, because I doubt he will ever be allowed near a position of supervisory authority again.
As outsiders we will never know how "obvious" it was. We only have the 20-20 hindsight view of that.

But as for his capability as a priest (not manager) - the trial did not investigate that , nor would it be competent to do so.
So what the church does with him: who knows? We can only be thankful we have not got to take that decision.
Which I hope they will do on the evidenc of whether he is a bad priest.
Indeed - to follow your thought here, that it makes him unfit as a pastor - all those churches without formal holy orders, have an even greater problem.
They know less about the background, of those who teach in their name.
And as for excommunication many who throw that stone seem to be unaware of the meaning - why with hold the sacrament?

Vengeance is mine said the Lord - Judge not lest ye be judged.

If this guy were not clergy but instead a lay person he would not even be any longer considered for any form of service and may be ex communicated..

We are talking about sexual assault of children within a religious body, exactly where the children should feel safest. It's not just any secular organization. We aren't talking about anything holy here, in fact it's demonic and you don't dance with devils. And this guy basically condoned it. If anything he will be held more accountable than those below him in the holy spiritual realm ( I'll let those interested find the scripture on this). This is horrible, we talk about a pathetic bunch of adult men, even consider their effectiveness to continue when they never were capable to begin with. And hanging in the balance is marred kids for life. This is unfathomable to me that a bunch -of people in the name of a religious system could be so devout and yet so deceived at the very same time.

 

[Zoii]

I suggest it is also unsafe to claim that Wilson had any knowledge of Fletcher's continued abuse.

Wilson did not report the complaints he heard in the 1970's, and says that he subsequently forgot about them.

It is easy in the very heightened awareness today of the psychological damage caused by sexual abuse, to find Wilson's forgetting these incidents as unbelievable. Certainly that was the finding of the judge.

As a young man of Wilson's age in the early 70's, I am not sure if I had been a jury member in this case (there was no jury) whether I would have been able to conclude that without reasonable doubt.

truly you seriously believe that

 

[Zoii]

Which makes it even sadder, it happens in ALL organisations and churches that deal with children, on a scale commensurate only with the size of the organisation: the anglican church facing similar problems now.
And all secular organistations that deal with children such as orphanages, scouts and so on have had the same problem. Only today an ex premier football coach has been imprisoned for serial child abuse.
Many sports teams have had similar problems.


Clearly this archbishopwas untrained ( which would not happen now) and unfit to deal with the problems his supervision role presented.
That will be fixed, because I doubt he will ever be allowed near a position of supervisory authority again.
As outsiders we will never know how "obvious" it was. We only have the 20-20 hindsight view of that.

But as for his capability as a priest (not manager) - the trial did not investigate that , nor would it be competent to do so.
So what the church does with him: who knows? We can only be thankful we have not got to take that decision.
Which I hope they will do on the evidenc of whether he is a bad priest.
Indeed - to follow your thought here, that it makes him unfit as a pastor - all those churches without formal holy orders, have an even greater problem.
They know less about the background, of those who teach in their name.
And as for excommunication many who throw that stone seem to be unaware of the meaning - why with hold the sacrament?

Vengeance is mine said the Lord - Judge not lest ye be judged.

I agree with most of your sentiment except for the comment from the judge -
Mr Stone said "there is no remorse or contrition showed by the offender".

If the judge's assessment is accurate, then after all that has happened, thats very disturbing.

 

[creslaw]

truly you seriously believe that

I suggest you read my post more carefully.

 

[creslaw]

I agree with most of your sentiment except for the comment from the judge -
Mr Stone said "there is no remorse or contrition showed by the offender".

If the judge's assessment is accurate, then after all that has happened, thats very disturbing.

We need to put that in context. Wilson was certainly sorry for the damage caused to the victims of sexul abuse and had taken steps in his diocese to address the situation.

 

[Zoii]

We need to put that in context. Wilson was certainly sorry for the damage caused to the victims of sexul abuse and had taken steps in his diocese to address the situation.

how do you explain the judges remarks?

 

[Mountainmike]

I woudnt personally let him run a tea stall for the parish ever again!

But I am guessing there is a chaplain or religious role somewhere that uses only his religious skills, not his management ones.


The words that you use are those of a younger generation -with training on "conflict resolution" "discipline" and so on- all organisations do that as part of management training NOW. Three decades ago, it was "learning on the job".
Indeed the catholic church (as no doubt does yours) does specific training on child issues for any lay role.

In generations past, I am sure they were just chosen on whether they were seen as "godly men".
I doubt if management flair ever had much to do with it.No training at all on an issue that was assumed to be non existent or small. The church is partly to blame for lack of training, but management training was not the norm.

Being a man manager is a horrible job. Staff have too many "issues and concerns" - and frankly too many made up stories of "he said this" and "she did that"
The worst size is about 50. When you are asked to run an organisation of that size, is when it gets out of hand.Too mnay cliques , too much infighting.
Ive run a few companies, and I hated it! So beware promotions paidiske!

Worse than that is working either for or with a sociopath. Done that as well (in my case a partner entrepreneur). These people are very persuasive - use all the psychological tricks in the book, always pushing others to cross into grey areas. Unless you havebeen there it is hard to explain. You cannot take the cold clinical black and white judgements that many think are possible from outside. Wait till you meet one!

Child abusers are generally reckoned to be such domineering sociopaths. I have never met one to my knowledge, nor have most people they are rare. Though you would not htink so from the press.

All of us in parish ministry have an oversight role. If he couldn't respond appropriately as a bishop, could we trust he could respond appropriately to a lay volunteer in a parish? I can guarantee there would be plenty of situations - not necessarily this grave - where he would need to be able to deal with conflict, discipline and so forth, and this suggests that his capacity to do that appropriately was not fully developed.

Yes, I think it does make him a bad priest, actually.

 

[creslaw]

how do you explain the judges remarks?

The judge found Wilson's explanation unbelievable, and therefore found him guilty of a specific offence - sentencing takes into account whether a person expresses guilt and remorse for that specific offence.

 

[Mountainmike]

I agree with most of your sentiment except for the comment from the judge -
Mr Stone said "there is no remorse or contrition showed by the offender".

If the judge's assessment is accurate, then after all that has happened, thats very disturbing.

I agree it is worrying.

But then absolution - forgiveness - in the catholic context, needs true contrition as well.


But I can also imagine the guy is simply punch drunk, after years of all the investigation, vilifiation from the public, and no doubt vilification by many peers, disowned by family and friends.
I can imagine he is just an empty shell, going through motions. Probably has not slept in weeks. Probably near suicidal. And if he could go back and change a single decision he would. But he cant, and the thought will haunt him till the day he dies.

I doubt if many judging his "remorse" including those here will take any of that into account.

The public just want revenge against an organisation they hate.

Hard to know what the judges view of "true remorse" is or whether it is possible to show it in that zombie state. Probably professional actors and criminals who know how to play the system get on better in that judges court.

For the judge it was just one more days work, after a good nights sleep, in his 20-20 hindsight wonderland in which people are supposed to "show his kind of remorse". For the bishop he has yet to wake up from the sleepless nightmare that has lasted years.... when all he ever wanted was to follow Christ.

 

[Blade]

Hmm I don't keep up with ANY of this. Wonder how long SOME have been praying for him. You love him as Christ loves you died for you.. gave His live for the world. I personally dont see this man as my enemy and we are to love our enemy as Christ again that same love He loves us.

Yes in this world some sins are treated worse then others. But dont be deceived. God HATES all sin. NO SIN will ever enter heaven. That tiny little lie or going 67 when we should go 65 or that STOP sign? How we ROLL through it. Obey ALL mans laws. My point is.. lets remember our SIN we do each day is not GOOD SINS vs OMGOSH really awful evil wicked sins in regards to childern. Its that BLOOD from a GOD that is the ONLY reason we get in to Heaven.

We all fall... now.. do we REMEMBER what Christ did for us or not. So we hold them accountable for never once sinning against us. David by the sweet sweet holy Spirit said.. against thee and only thee do I sin and do this evil in your sight. Some need to get the reward for the fruits they have done in this world. If they do not repent. But love them. Pray for them... we all fall..some get stuck.. cant seem to get out.. so HELP..pray for them. Your sin lol is not OK! And theres is not. Not saying you have to agree or like what ever.. remember CHRIST IN YOU...give as Peter and John did.. give away what is IN YOU..

in the end.. your free choice

 

[Paidiske]

I woudnt personally let him run a tea stall for the parish ever again!

But I am guessing there is a chaplain or religious role somewhere that uses only his religious skills, not his management ones.

Even in chaplaincy roles there is a degree of.... being savvy about organisational dynamics, for want of a better way of putting it, that is necessary to function in the role. And yes, things like reporting responsibilities come into play in these roles too.

To my mind the only roles I'd consider him for now are ones which don't involve care for people. It's not about the gravity of the sin, it's about demonstrated inability to function in the role.

 

[JIMINZ]

He was actually found guilty well over a month ago. Today was his sentencing. There has been no disciplinary action on behalf of the Catholic Church to date. Perhaps, as you say, they were awaiting finalisation of the criminal proceedings.

It all seems so obvious though. Why Oh Why weren't these paedophile priests defrocked when it was known they were criminals.

.
The question I have always has is, when this type of cover up is found out, was the cover up done initially because the one in authority was also guilty, and it would be like the Pot calling the Kettle Black, or is there some sort of unspoken protection for one another?
Sort of like when you get into a position of Authority protect those under you.

I don't believe we have even see the tip of the ice burg concerning Pedophilia, and Homosexuality in the Church.....Probably never will.

1) Should have gotten a harsher sentence
2) Should not only lose his position, he should be Defrocked.

 

[JIMINZ]

St paul was instrumental in getting christians killed for their belief.
Our Lord forgave him. Gave him another chance.

It is not ours to judge him as a priest.
Does it make him unfit to be a cloistered religious - clearly not

Defrocked or not, I doubt if he will be trusted to supervise anyone at the diocese again. So unable to repeat the same mistakes.
Not least the church insurers will have something to say about that!

All should recognise that most of these cases refer to long ago history.
To have even the most minor role in the catholic church now involves training on such matters, That was not a part of anyones training in any organisation 20 or more years ago.

.
It's not a question of training, it's a matter of a man being Ordained as a Priest of the Church knows what Sin is, he knows when sin is confessed and why.

A Priest committing such sins should turn himself in and leave the Church on his own, but no they don't and when they go to confession, the one hearing their confession does nothing to stop it, the guilty Priest is shipped off to another Parish as though that is the cure for his sin.