Muslims: what is the logic behind these verses in the Qur'an?

Barney2.0

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Again, this is irrelevant because the question is can the Qur'an be understood without ahadith and tafsir? Now if you want to change the subject to intercessory prayer, hadith and tafsir won't help you either because Sunnis and Shi'is have different ones. And aside from Ali, they don't much care for the Rashidun. Besides the Companions of the Prophet were still alive. Why would they have saint shrines?
True they have different ones, however it gives each sect a sense of understanding of the Quran, without Hadith and Tafsir, Islam can’t be practiced. Thats why I was saying you need Tafsir and Hadith to understand the Quran to practice Islam. Which was my point the whole time which you seem to have missed.
 
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smaneck

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Nope, your the only one who was lying here since you never read the text until I actually posted it,

Actually, I did. But I knew there was no such verse beforehand because I know the Bible.

I didn’t put up the verse itself because it needs the proper explaining:

In other words it doesn't say that unless you say it says what it doesn't say.

In my book Not Under Bondage: Biblical Divorce for Abuse

Your book? You wrote this?
So you think it is okay for a Christian to divorce their spouse so long as she or he can say, "Well he/she pushed me away"
LOL
 
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smaneck

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True they have different ones, however it gives each sect a sense of understanding of the Quran, without Hadith and Tafsir, Islam can’t be practiced. Thats why I was saying you need Tafsir and Hadith to understand the Quran to practice Islam. Which was my point the whole time which you seem to have missed.

Except you didn't say "to practice" Islam you said you can't understand the Qur'an without tafsir and ahadith, period. You always like to change the goal posts once your arguments are refuted.
 
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Barney2.0

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Except you didn't say "to practice" Islam you said you can't understand the Qur'an without tafsir and ahadith, period. You always like to change the goal posts once your arguments are refuted.
Yes and meanings of the Quran can’t be understood without Hadith and Tafsir, for example no compulsion in religion can be interpreted in many different ways without Tafsir or Hadith it would be impossible to truly understand it. So far you haven’t refuted anything.
 
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Barney2.0

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Actually, I did. But I knew there was no such verse beforehand because I know the Bible.



In other words it doesn't say that unless you say it says what it doesn't say.



Your book? You wrote this?
So you think it is okay for a Christian to divorce their spouse so long as she or he can say, "Well he/she pushed me away"
LOL
It’s not my writing I posted a link to an article. So far I lost the point of this discussion, based on our previous posts you seem to have no knowledge what’s so ever on the Bible. The Bible allows a person to divorce their spouse if they’re unbelievers. If a spouse beats their husband or wife it would make them hypocrites and unbelievers thus allowing divorce. Don’t bother replying to my posts anymore since this is growing to be ridiculous.
 
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smaneck

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Yes and meanings of the Quran can’t be understood without Hadith and Tafsir, for example no compulsion in religion can be interpreted in many different ways without Tafsir or Hadith it would be impossible to truly understand it. So far you haven’t refuted anything.

Sure it can. There are plenty of other verses which can expound on this.
 
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smaneck

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It’s not my writing I posted a link to an article.

Then why'd you put it up a second time with no quotations?

The Bible allows a person to divorce their spouse if they’re unbelievers.

Not the NT. Paul explicitly says they should *not* divorce an unbelieving spouse if the spouse wishes to keep the union together.

Don’t bother replying to my posts anymore since this is growing to be ridiculous.

As soon as you stop attacking Islam.
 
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Barney2.0

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Sure it can. There are plenty of other verses which can expound on this.
Accessing to Tafsir Ibn Kathir no compulsion in religion was only for a certain time before it was abrogated, without this Tafsir we wouldn’t understand the context of no compulsion in religion.
 
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Barney2.0

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Then why'd you put it up a second time with no quotations?



Not the NT. Paul explicitly says they should *not* divorce an unbelieving spouse if the spouse wishes to keep the union together.



As soon as you stop attacking Islam.
Because I already put it up multiple times and you refused you could have easily gone back and saw the link. P,ease quote the verse. I’m not attacking Islam, I’m telling the truth about it.
 
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smaneck

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Accessing to Tafsir Ibn Kathir no compulsion in religion was only for a certain time before it was abrogated, without this Tafsir we wouldn’t understand the context of no compulsion in religion.

Or maybe the tafsir is just plain wrong. Ibn Kathir was a student of Ibn Taymiyya, one of the most right-wing theologians who ever lived and a darling to the Wahhabis and other Neo-Kharijites. He is also the darling of Islamophobes seeking to discredit Islam.
But thank you for illustrating the problems with tafsirs. They can be used to negate major principles of the Qur'an.
 
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smaneck

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P,ease quote the verse.

It is in the same I Corinthians 7 which your author is trying to make say the opposite:

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

I’m not attacking Islam, I’m telling the truth about it.

Yeah, just like you were saying the truth about the Bible.:ebil:
 
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Barney2.0

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Or maybe the tafsir is just plain wrong. Ibn Kathir was a student of Ibn Taymiyya, one of the most right-wing theologians who ever lived and a darling to the Wahhabis and other Neo-Kharijites. He is also the darling of Islamophobes seeking to discredit Islam.
But thank you for illustrating the problems with tafsirs. They can be used to negate major principles of the Qur'an.
Wahhabis don’t exist, it’s a name used by Shias and Sufis to discredit the more conservative group of Muslims called Salafis. Ibn Taymiyyah is respected by many Sunnis as a great scholar of Islam. Islamophobia is also a myth, much like how Jews still pull on the Anti Semitic card every time someone points out something wrong about Judaism.
 
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Barney2.0

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It is in the same I Corinthians 7 which your author is trying to make say the opposite:

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?



Yeah, just like you were saying the truth about the Bible.:ebil:
Greek text the word “depart” (chorizo) means “to place space between, to separate” and it was one of the standard terms for legal divorce in the first century. When applying 1 Corinthians 7:15, the key question is not “Who walked out?” but “Who caused the separation?” Would it be sensible to say that David was the sinful rebellious one when he left Saul’s court? No, he left because of Saul's abuse. David left, but Saul was the cause of his leaving. If we translate the word chorizo as “separate” we see this more clearly: if the unbeliever separates, let him separate. The unbeliever is doing the separating; the believer is commanded to let it be done. This tells the believing spouse (and the church) to allow the marriage to be over, because the unbeliever has destroyed the covenant. It permits the victim of abuse to take out a legal divorce. Let there be chorizo = let there be separation = let there be legal divorce, because the word chorizo means both separation and divorce.
 
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Robban

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Wahhabis don’t exist, it’s a name used by Shias and Sufis to discredit the more conservative group of Muslims called Salafis. Ibn Taymiyyah is respected by many Sunnis as a great scholar of Islam. Islamophobia is also a myth, much like how Jews still pull on the Anti Semitic card every time someone points out something wrong about Judaism.

And Christians pull the "anti Christ" card.
 
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Barney2.0

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And Christians pull the "anti Christ" card.
I don’t do that, the anti Christ is only one person, a group of people can’t be the anti christ. However I’ve been called anti Semite (even though I am a Semite) simply for criticizing Judaism. There are people who hate Jews don’t get me wrong, but you just can’t use the term Anti Semite. As Jews aren’t the only Semites.
 
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Robban

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I don’t do that, the anti Christ is only one person, a group of people can’t be the anti christ. However I’ve been called anti Semite (even though I am a Semite) simply for criticizing Judaism. There are people who hate Jews don’t get me wrong, but you just can’t use the term Anti Semite. As Jews aren’t the only Semites.

I do not use antisemite either.

Either one hates someone/group, or does not.
Haman was one such person,
it goes back even further to the Amalakites,
though now extict their spirit is still alive and kicking.

you have heard, "Those who are not for me are against me."
or,
as Bush jr trumpeted out,

"Those who are not for us are against us."

It even went so far that French fries were no longer called French fries in the US,
but they may have gotten over such silliness by now.
 
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Barney2.0

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I do not use antisemite either.

Either one hates someone/group, or does not.
Haman was one such person,
it goes back even further to the Amalakites,
though now extict their spirit is still alive and kicking.

you have heard, "Those who are not for me are against me."
or,
as Bush jr trumpeted out,

"Those who are not for us are against us."

It even went so far that French fries were no longer called French fries in the US,
but they may have gotten over such silliness by now.
If I hate Jews I’m an anti Jewish person not an Anti Semite. If I hate Muslims I’m anti Muslim not an Islamphobe. Since to be a phobia something has to be scientifically tested to prove it’s a phobia.
 
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Robban

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If I hate Jews I’m an anti Jewish person not an Anti Semite. If I hate Muslims I’m anti Muslim not an Islamphobe. Since to be a phobia something has to be scientifically tested to prove it’s a phobia.

What was I saying?

Next question,
Do you walk around with a plank inside your suit, at the back?

I ask because you come across very unflexible,
 
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smaneck

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Wahhabis don’t exist, it’s a name used by Shias and Sufis to discredit the more conservative group of Muslims called Salafis. Ibn Taymiyyah is respected by many Sunnis as a great scholar of Islam. Islamophobia is also a myth, much like how Jews still pull on the Anti Semitic card every time someone points out something wrong about Judaism.

He is respected by the Neo-Kharijites who differ traditional Sunnis in the following ways:

  1. They believe the gate of ijtihad (interpretation) remains open unlike most Sunnis who believe it was closed in the 9th century.
  2. The believe in something called *takfir wa hijr.* This means they hold it impermissible for a Muslim to live in a country not governed by Islamic law without seeking to overthrow and make it Islamic. Otherwise they should immigrate to a place which is truly Muslim.
  3. They hold that any nominally Muslim government which does not abide by the shariah (Islamic law) is therefore really apostate. Such a government should be overthrown and its leaders killed. For this reason, hitherto, most of the violence of Islamist groups was aimed at other Muslims. This position, I might add, is basically the same one held by the Kharijites in early Islam. The Kharijites were the faction responsible for assassinating the Imam Ali and have been considered dangerous heretics by both Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims alike.
  4. They insist in regarding Christians and Jews as infidels rather than people of the book.
 
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smaneck

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Greek text the word “depart” (chorizo) means “to place space between, to separate” and it was one of the standard terms for legal divorce in the first century. When applying 1 Corinthians 7:15, the key question is not “Who walked out?” but “Who caused the separation?” Would it be sensible to say that David was the sinful rebellious one when he left Saul’s court? No, he left because of Saul's abuse. David left, but Saul was the cause of his leaving. If we translate the word chorizo as “separate” we see this more clearly: if the unbeliever separates, let him separate. The unbeliever is doing the separating; the believer is commanded to let it be done. This tells the believing spouse (and the church) to allow the marriage to be over, because the unbeliever has destroyed the covenant. It permits the victim of abuse to take out a legal divorce. Let there be chorizo = let there be separation = let there be legal divorce, because the word chorizo means both separation and divorce.

And all this time I thought chorizo was a spicy sausage. Yes, I get that you think "well, he pushed me away" is sufficient grounds for divorce in Christianity. But I Corinthians doesn't say that. It says if the non-believer divorces then the Christian is not bound. It says nothing about who causes the separation, so no, that is not the key question. You really should stop plagiarizing this lady's article. The story about Saul and David is entirely irrelevant. They weren't married to each other.
 
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