Sarah Sanders and Family Denied Service at Virginia Restaurant

[iluvatar5150]

Here's the thing: even with President "Literally Hitler" Trump, these attitudes you discuss aren't mainstream in conservatism. If you're looking for what mainstream conservatism is, I would point to congressmen like Ted Cruz, comedians like Steven Crowder, or political commentators like Ben Shapiro.

You're applying a double standard. Hard-line anti-immigration policies, harsh policing policies, big cuts to the social net, acquiescence to bigots (under the banner of state's or individual rights), and a general attitude of "I got mine" are central to conservative ideology. On top of that, Trump's high approval ratings withing the Republican party suggest that he's a lot more mainstream than you seem to think. I'll admit that I'm not super familiar with Ben Shapiro, but given the titles of his first two books, if he's what passes for mainstream, that doesn't make conservatives look too good. And given their popularity, it's to hard argue that other, more poisonous figures like Hannity and Coulter aren't representative of the mainstream.

OTOH, "literally Hitler" and the supporting of cop killings and firebombing of businesses are decidedly not mainstream among the left.

 

[Dave-W]

We Have all seen the signs:

No shirt, No shoes, No service.​

50 years ago that was to keep hippies out of businesses where "normal" people went. Eventually they found health reasons to keep it in place.

50 years before that there were signs saying "No Irish." Businesses have always sought to exclude whatever group the owners deemed unsuitable.

 

[jazzflower92]

You're applying a double standard. Hard-line anti-immigration policies, harsh policing policies, big cuts to the social net, acquiescence to bigots (under the banner of state's or individual rights), and a general attitude of "I got mine" are central to conservative ideology. On top of that, Trump's high approval ratings withing the Republican party suggest that he's a lot more mainstream than you seem to think. I'll admit that I'm not super familiar with Ben Shapiro, but given the titles of his first two books, if he's what passes for mainstream, that doesn't make conservatives look too good. And given their popularity, it's to hard argue that other, more poisonous figures like Hannity and Coulter aren't representative of the mainstream.

OTOH, "literally Hitler" and the supporting of cop killings and firebombing of businesses are decidedly not mainstream among the left.

I think this mentality of punish the whole family seems to be a thing of the left as well. This wasn't Sarah Sanders on her own, but with her family as well. And the left would to more to adhere to the premise of not punishing everyone in a family just like Trump is doing.

 

[ubicaritas]

Talk about twisting Scripture. Because we're called to co-habitate with non-believers in peace, you believe that we must also participate in the immoral events that others try to drag us down into? Or that it gives you or someone else the right to force the participation of others?

Baking a cake is immoral? I guess I don't buy into an overly symbolic worldview, for good reason. As I've said elsewhere, that's a primrose path to the dark side of humanity, ending in places such as Auschwitz.

Sometimes an act of kindness is just that, without political overtones. Don't confuse acceptance with affirmation.

 

[jazzflower92]

Baking a cake is immoral? I guess I don't buy into an overly symbolic worldview, for good reason. As I've said elsewhere, that's a primrose path to the dark side of humanity, ending in places such as Auschwitz.

Sometimes an act of kindness is just that, without political overtones. Don't confuse acceptance with affirmation.

I would say making a wedding cake a more personal thing.

 

[TuxAme]

You're applying a double standard. Hard-line anti-immigration policies, harsh policing policies, big cuts to the social net, acquiescence to bigots (under the banner of state's or individual rights), and a general attitude of "I got mine" are central to conservative ideology. On top of that, Trump's high approval ratings withing the Republican party suggest that he's a lot more mainstream than you seem to think. I'll admit that I'm not super familiar with Ben Shapiro, but given the titles of his first two books, if he's what passes for mainstream, that doesn't make conservatives look too good. And given their popularity, it's to hard argue that other, more poisonous figures like Hannity and Coulter aren't representative of the mainstream.

OTOH, "literally Hitler" and the supporting of cop killings and firebombing of businesses are decidedly not mainstream among the left.

Did I say cop killings? No, I was talking about any officer-involved shootings- particularly those that involve minorities- and how they lend themselves to protesters torching businesses that had nothing to do with what happened with little-to-no media (or personal) condemnation. Why would the people I was discussing riot over the slaying of an officer?

If you don't want to own that behavior, you don't have to- what I'm saying is that (if facebook posts, or the reaction of CNN, MSNBC- anyone but the one right-leaning media outlet- are any indication) the left seems to have a big problem- yes, bigger than the American right- with violence and intimidation, and it usually goes uncondemned, if not praised. Yet, you're trying to put the ball in our court.

And you seem to be using a lot of dysphemisms to make your point.

 

[ubicaritas]

The Supreme Court struck down those rules at the conservatives behest.

So is it only OK to deny service for religious reasons now?

Or, will any kind of hatred do?

Actually, the Masterpiece ruling has been used to uphold the rights of gays to services, in one case in Arizona. It's not just a sop to conservatives, but was a narrow ruling that applied only to Mr. Philips. It did not challenge the substance of Colorado's law.

 

[variant]

Actually, the Masterpiece ruling has been used to uphold the rights of gays to services, in one case in Arizona. It's not just a sop to conservatives, but was a narrow ruling that applied only to Mr. Philips. It did not challenge the substance of Colorado's law.

OK then. Have our conservative friends decided whether they would like the broad right to deny services for religious reasons?

 

[TuxAme]

Baking a cake is immoral? I guess I don't buy into an overly symbolic worldview, for good reason. As I've said elsewhere, that's a primrose path to the dark side of humanity, ending in places such as Auschwitz.

Sometimes an act of kindness is just that, without political overtones. Don't confuse acceptance with affirmation.

I wouldn't exactly say that the culinary arts are immoral. You know that's not what I meant. What's immoral are the events in question, and your insistence that, in order to "be nice", people must be forced by the government to participate in the events they find morally troubling.

And you just committed a pretty big fallacy. I think there's a name for it, and I'll give you a hint in the form of a fill-in-the-blank. Two words, thirteen letters.
S__pp__y S_op_

P.S. I consider it ironic that you believe giving people the right to choose what services to perform for whom lends itself to Nazism, but giving the government the power to punish those who don't acquiesce to its whims is perfectly reasonable and won't lead to any trouble at all.

 

[ubicaritas]

I wouldn't exactly say that the culinary arts are immoral. You know that's not what I meant. What's immoral are the events in question, and your insistence that, in order to "be nice", people must be forced by the government to participate in the events they find morally troubling.

And you just committed a pretty big fallacy. I think there's a name for it, and I'll give you a hint in the form of a fill-in-the-blank. Two words, thirteen letters.
S__pp__y S_op_

It's not a slippery slope because symbolically mediated worldviews, metaphysics, are part and parcel of totalizing narratives. Nazism was fundamentally a metaphysical project, as was the medieval church with its integralist philosophy which justified torture and all sorts of abuses of humanity.

Metaphysics should be a purely private thing and not part of public discourse any longer. In public it is a dangerous discourse. We need to focus on personalism as the basis of our ethics.

 

[variant]

Her tweet regarding the incident included this jem:

"I always do my best to treat people, including those I disagree with, respectfully and will continue to do so"

 

[TuxAme]

It's not a slippery slope because symbolically mediated worldviews, metaphysics, are part and parcel of totalizing narratives.

Denying that a slippery slope exists won't keep you from falling.

Giving people the option to not bake cakes for SSMs will lead to Auschwitz is just as much a slippery slope as the normalization of homosexuality will lead to the downfall of modern civilization. There's no getting around it. They're both ridiculous.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I think this mentality of punish the whole family seems to be a thing of the left as well.

Where does the article say that her family would not have been welcome without her?

Did I say cop killings? No, I was talking about any officer-involved shootings- particularly those that involve minorities- and how they lend themselves to protesters torching businesses that had nothing to do with what happened with little-to-no media (or personal) condemnation. Why would the people I was discussing riot over the slaying of an officer?

My mistake - I misread your post to claim that mainstream libs thought it was okay to retaliate against cops.

If I understand things correctly, you are claiming that mainstream libs support violent riots in response to police shootings. I would argue that that is also not mainstream.

If you don't want to own that behavior, you don't have to- what I'm saying is that (if facebook posts, or the reaction of CNN, MSNBC- anyone but the one right-leaning media outlet- are any indication) the left seems to have a big problem- yes, bigger than the American right- with violence and intimidation, and it usually goes uncondemned, if not praised. Yet, you're trying to put the ball in our court.

IME, violence and intimidation on the right tends to come from more institutionalized sources. By mainstream conservative ideology, it's ok to harass minorities via programs like stop-n-frisk. If blacks get disproportionately abused by police.. meh - they should just stop committing crime, right? And when they protest in about the most benign way possible, half the country loses their mind and the leader of the free world publicly says that maybe they don't deserve to live here.

Sorry, but that is a LOT more dangerous than some kids setting a car on fire, and it's a LOT more popular.

And you seem to be using a lot of dysphemisms to make your point.

That's because I realized a long time ago that it's easy to whitewash bad ideas, double standards, intellectual dishonesty by wrapping them in a veneer of politeness. If somebody wants to debate the merits of a particular policy, fine. I can be as polite as anybody. But if someone wants to play games, dismiss reality, or otherwise present a fuax-balanced view of two things that aren't balanced, I'll call it out.

 

[ubicaritas]

Denying that a slippery slope exists won't keep you from falling.

Giving people the option to not bake cakes for SSMs will lead to Auschwitz is just as much a slippery slope as the normalization of homosexuality will lead to the downfall of modern civilization. There's no getting around it. They're both ridiculous.

You're getting way too specific in your criticism of my argument. I'm just saying there's a generalized hazard in asking us to view things like a cake as some kind of potent symbol of the sacred. That very perspective, the primacy of metaphysics, is intellectually and even ethically bankrupt in the modern world.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Denying service. How old-fashioned.

Sarah Sanders 'gets kicked out of a Virginia restaurant' | Daily Mail Online

I guess if people can kick out gay people. For sinning. They can kick out someone . That sins/ lies for the president. With that being said. I would have not kicked her out. But I wouldn't kick a gay person, that's married or getting married out. Or I caught kissing.

 

[TuxAme]

My mistake - I misread your post to claim that mainstream libs thought it was okay to retaliate against cops.

If I understand things correctly, you are claiming that mainstream libs support violent riots in response to police shootings. I would argue that that is also not mainstream.




IME, violence and intimidation on the right tends to come from more institutionalized sources. By mainstream conservative ideology, it's ok to harass minorities via programs like stop-n-frisk. If blacks get disproportionately abused by police.. meh - they should just stop committing crime, right? And when they protest in about the most benign way possible, half the country loses their mind and the leader of the free world publicly says that maybe they don't deserve to live here.

Sorry, but that is a LOT more dangerous than some kids setting a car on fire, and it's a LOT more popular.



That's because I realized a long time ago that it's easy to whitewash bad ideas, double standards, intellectual dishonesty by wrapping them in a veneer of politeness. If somebody wants to debate the merits of a particular policy, fine. I can be as polite as anybody. But if someone wants to play games, dismiss reality, or otherwise present a fuax-balanced view of two things that aren't balanced, I'll call it out.

Since conseratives tend to be the ones citing the Constitution and its importance all the time, support for Stop and Frisk shouldn't be mainstream. It's a violation of personal rights and could easily be exploited by the "bad cops" the left insists make up more than most of the police force.

You're using dysphemisms to describe conservatives, and euphemisms to describe your own side. Did you notice? That should tip you off that something might not be adding up.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Interesting how the LGBT expect service everywhere and are fully supported by the Libs yet this behaviour against Cons is ok with them.... hypocrites.

Yes, because 1 liberal. If the owner is even liberal . Turns this person down. That means every liberal is guilty.

 

[HereIStand]

I guess if people can kick out gay people. For sinning. They can kick out someone . That sins/ lies for the president. With that being said. I would have not kicked her out. But I wouldn't kick a gay person, that's married or getting married out. Or I caught kissing.

I haven't heard of anyone kicking out a gay person from restaurant. People not wanting to bake a cake for a gay wedding is different from asking someone to leave a restaurant based on her political affiliation.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Since conseratives tend to be the ones citing the Constitution and its importance all the time, support for Stop and Frisk shouldn't be mainstream. It's a violation of personal rights and could easily be exploited by the "bad cops" the left insists make up more than most of the police force.

You’re right-it shouldn’t be mainstream, and yet it is. That’s part of why so many of us on the left (i’m not really on the left, but that’s another discussion) are so cynical and skeptical about many of the values supposedly espoused by the right. It seems that many mainstream conservative values are only held so long as they benefit folks within the conservative clique.

You're using dysphemisms to describe conservatives, and euphemisms to describe your own side. Did you notice? That should tip you off that something might not be adding up.

I’m not sure of what you’re getting at, but I arrived at these pejoratives after watching the conservative movement for a couple decades.

 

[Liza B.]

Not everybody on the left is into tribalism. Some of us are left-libertarian and can separate out the personal and political. Not every bit of human life must be a political statement.

They would not feed this woman nor her family because of her political views. She didn't ask The Red Hen to cater a Trump event. Just to feed her and her family, and the owner refused. For the record, were it me as a born-again Christian, I would never refuse a gay couple dinner if I owned a restaurant. Or Democrats.

But that's where we are now, and most of you are defending this. Let's see where this goes, then.