Losing faith in "faith alone"

[mark kennedy]

What is God's grace sufficient for?

In a word righteousness, God's grace saves, sanctifies and empowers for service. The just shall live by faith.

What exactly is it that God wants from us or for us?

Again righteousness, that cannot come from us but only from him. Paul goes on for almost three chapters describing our sin, then in Romans 3, about verse 21 he injects a pivitol ' but now', and what he is talking about is the righteousness that is by grace through faith. What's he want? In the Upper Room Jesus makes clear he wants disciples to have love one for another, to love one another as he has loved us. That's the righteousness that is by faith, life and that more abundantly and it is always by grace through faith.

 

[amariselle]

As to Judas. Yes Ma'am. He was a disciple and a saved one at that. If you remember Jesus sent him out with the other apostles to heal and preach and teach. Mathew chapter 10.

Would Jesus send one NOT SAVED out to teach in the name of God? This is debated and we're off topic. However, I believe, as many theologians do, that Judas was saved at the beginning of Jesus' ministry. He was even in charge of the purse! Jesus must have trusted him.

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. - John 6:64

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? - John 6:70

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. - John 17:12

 

[amariselle]

He didn't do "enough" to save those that don't want him as Lord.

Now you're putting words in my mouth.

 

[GodsGrace101]

As disciples, not for salvation.

Not according to Scripture.

Yes, as disciples, not for salvation.

As I have said repeatedly. We do not agree. So, this will be the last time I respond to you on this topic. (There is not point in "beating a dead horse" to use the analogy you brought up earlier.)

Actually, you never explain what a disciple is.

Let's look at some verses.

Mathew 4:18-20
18Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19And He said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.”

I hope you know that a disciple also MAKES disciples.
So, in order to make disciples, you MUST be a follower of Christ. Jesus meant that His disciples would make even more disciples themselves.


Mathew 28:16-20
16But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Jesus is telling His Apostles that they are to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching them everything Jesus had taught.

John 8:31
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

Jesus said we are to continue in His word if we are to be disciples of His. What is that word? Perhaps all the things He taught the apostles? (as in Mathew 28)

There's even more...

So you see, if you are saved... you ARE a disciple.
If you ARE a disciple....you are saved.

None of the above which Jesus said could be correct if what I just posted were not so.

 

[amariselle]

Actually, you never explain what a disciple is.

Let's look at some verses.

Mathew 4:18-20
18Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19And He said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.”

I hope you know that a disciple also MAKES disciples.
So, in order to make disciples, you MUST be a follower of Christ. Jesus meant that His disciples would make even more disciples themselves.


Mathew 28:16-20
16But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Jesus is telling His Apostles that they are to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching them everything Jesus had taught.

John 8:31
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

Jesus said we are to continue in His word if we are to be disciples of His. What is that word? Perhaps all the things He taught the apostles? (as in Mathew 28)

There's even more...

So you see, if you are saved... you ARE a disciple.
If you ARE a disciple....you are saved.

None of the above which Jesus said could be correct if what I just posted were not so.

I actually did explain, ad nauseam. You and everyone else can go back and read my posts on this thread, and others if you so choose. I have other things to do beside repeat myself endlessly. God bless.

 

[GodsGrace101]

No. That doesn't make any sense. We might as well all give up in trying to follow God if such were the case. God does not pick and choose some to be saved and other not to be saved. A general reading of the Bible refutes this kind of thinking. God is grieved by those who sin. Well, if God is the one who determines who is saved or not saved, then God should not be grieved by those who sin. He could change it so that He would not be upset. Also, God could not change His mind, either. But we see God change His mind about the Ninevites. Judgment and wrath was coming for them. But they were able to avert God's wrath or judgment because they repented. Not because God changed them so as to make them repent. That would not make any sense because God was going to bring wrath upon them. So yes. It is up to us to determine if we are going to repent or not. God even says in His Word that He commands all men to repent. Again, this kind of statement makes no sense if God chooses some to be saved and others to not be saved. It is just silly to say so otherwise.

It's even worse than that...
If God predestined everything that happens, as some believe, then He also predestined us to sin.
He also predestined women to be raped.
He also predestined some to get murdered.
He also predestined babies to die.
If God predestined everything due to his sovereignty, He would be the kind of God I would not care to worship.

 

[amariselle]

A,
@Jason0047 is asking you about ...
DISCIPLESHIP
SALVATION

You keep saying they're different.
You're answering something that I can't make a connection with as to the above. I just might be missing it...

What is discipleship?
Did you answer my question yet?

If I'm saved...am I a disciple?
If I'm a disciple....am I saved?

Actually, I did answer you:

Whether you are a disciple and to what extent is dependent upon your choice to learn from God, grow in His grace and follow after Him. This is your "reasonable service" and something all Christians should desire to do. (He who's been forgiven much, loves much).

Judas was a disciple. Did he believe? Was he saved?

You don't like my answers, and that's fine. We need to move on now.

 

[amariselle]

I think it's great that you put much effort into your posts to me!

Sarcasm?

You have a misunderstanding what the work of "flesh" is. If you serve God, you are not doing work of the "flesh", you are doing work of the SPIRIT.

If you are focused on your own "fleshly" obedience and good works, that is the "flesh." And the "flesh" wars against the "Spirit."

One part of obedience is to believe what God promises you. If Abram would believe that promise and start living an ungodly life, do you think it would have been fulfilled? No, it was fulfilled because Abraham was obedient.

So, you think Abraham was always obedient? What about when he allowed his wife Sarah, through whom God had promised his descendants would come, to not once, but twice, be taken into another man's harem? Did God forsake him for doing such a faithless and sinful thing?

Or what about all the other OT "saints"? Moses who was a murderer, David who was a murderer and an adulterer. Or Saul (Paul) a murderer of Christians. Honestly, when we read Scripture we should see that it is always because of God's faithfulness and never ours that we are saved. He has indeed shown His unfailing grace and mercy toward us, most wonderfully and incomparably in His Son.

"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." (Gal 3:18)

Do you see, the promise was not by keeping the Mosaic Law, it was about faith. And I have allready said what faith means.

Exactly, by faith because God promised, and no matter how many times man fails, and is faithless, God is faithful to His promises and never fails.

We can take credit for NONE of it.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Incorrect. ...

ACTS.21: = 17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord.

And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols,, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

Arrested in the Temple
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them.

ACTS.10: = 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

Rise Peter, kill and eat...

What does this mean?
What do all these verses mean?
Was it not decided that a Christian is circumcised of the heart?
It sounds like you're saying to keep the law...

1 Corinthians 7:18-20
18Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.

Romans 2:26
New American Standard Bible
So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

Colossians 2:16
16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—

 

[discipler7]

How could you say this when JESUS HIMSELF said we will be judged by our works?
Please exegete
John 5:28-29

= 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

MATTHEW.27:51-53 = 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

1PETER.1: =
A Heavenly Inheritance
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God though faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1PETER.3: & 4: = 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, ...

4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

The Word of God at 1PETER says that it was not the good deeds/works of the Old Testament Jews that caused them to be resurrected from the graves. It was their faith in the gospel of Christ that caused them to be resurrected.

 

[GodsGrace101]

By your statement that sanctification or good deeds/practices/works is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to enter heaven, the robber hanging on the Cross at LUKE.23:43 would not be able to enter heaven or Paradise.

It is faith/belief/trust in Jesus Christ that is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to enter heaven. Good deeds/works or sanctification are just the sign of the saved(= true Christians/prophets, sheep and wheat). Evil deeds or sins are the sign of the unsaved(= false Christians/prophets, goats, tares and unbelievers like atheists and Muslims).
....... It is not good deeds/works that saves. It is faith in Christ/God that saves. It is faith that produces good works/deeds.

Which comes first, faith or good works.?

What happens after the resurrection or rapture of believers.? Will sanctification or cleansing be ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to enter heaven.?

When will believers enter heaven.?

Are you sure you will die, be resurrected or raptured and enter heaven.? If you are sure, is your sureness from your faith or from your good works/sanctification or from both.?

You should stop talking about the thief on the cross.
No one here is hanging on a cross.

If good deeds don't save, why does Jesus keep talking about them??

And here are your answers: (but also answer the one above)
Faith comes first.

Yes. Because if we're not being sanctified, it means we lost our salvation by losing our faith.

Upon death, if they're saved. If they endured to the end.

My sureness is from my faith in Jesus to save me and my willingness to obey Him to the best of my ability.

 

[Phil 1:21]

You should stop talking about the thief on the cross.

So stop citing scriptural examples that contradict your assertions?

 

[GodsGrace101]

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. - John 6:64

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? - John 6:70

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. - John 17:12

John 6:64 is referring to all the disciples that were following Jesus, and not just the apostles... "who they were that believed not". (among the disciples NOT the apostles)

John 6.64 is referring to Judas when Jesus says "and who should betray Him". By now Jesus knew who would betray Him.

John 6:70
John 17:12
This was AFTER Mathew 10, which I had posted.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I actually did explain, ad nauseam. You and everyone else can go back and read my posts on this thread, and others if you so choose. I have other things to do beside repeat myself endlessly. God bless.

No A.
You never properly explained.
All you've ever said is that some are not disciples...that we're all at different points in our walk.

This is not correct. If we BELIEVE we are a disciple.
This has nothing to do with our walk. We're still disciples.
A disciple is a follower of Christ. A person cannot believe in Christ and NOT be a disciple.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Sarcasm?



If you are focused on your own "fleshly" obedience and good works, that is the "flesh." And the "flesh" wars against the "Spirit."



So, you think Abraham was always obedient? What about when he allowed his wife Sarah, through whom God had promised his descendants would come, to not once, but twice, be taken into another man's harem? Did God forsake him for doing such a faithless and sinful thing?

Or what about all the other OT "saints"? Moses who was a murderer, David who was a murderer and an adulterer. Or Saul (Paul) a murderer of Christians. Honestly, when we read Scripture we should see that it is always because of God's faithfulness and never ours that we are saved. He has indeed shown His unfailing grace and mercy toward us, most wonderfully and incomparably in His Son.



Exactly, by faith because God promised, and no matter how many times man fails, and is faithless, God is faithful to His promises and never fails.

We can take credit for NONE of it.

What Abraham did was not sinful at that time.
Surely you know this...

 

[Phil 1:21]

John 6:64 is referring to all the disciples that were following Jesus, and not just the apostles... "who they were that believed not". (among the disciples NOT the apostles)

John 6.64 is referring to Judas when Jesus says "and who should betray Him". By now Jesus knew who would betray Him.

John 6:70
John 17:12
This was AFTER Mathew 10, which I had posted.

Isaiah 46:9-10

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 

[GodsGrace101]

= 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

MATTHEW.27:51-53 = 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

1PETER.1: =
A Heavenly Inheritance
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God though faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1PETER.3: & 4: = 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, ...

4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

The Word of God at 1PETER says that it was not the good deeds/works of the Old Testament Jews that caused them to be resurrected from the graves. It was their faith in the gospel of Christ that caused them to be resurrected.

Again you posted a lot of verses.
For what?
What do I care that Jesus went to preach to those in prison?
What does this have to do with MY faith?
And, I've repeatedly said, as have others, that WORKS DO NOT SAVE US.

It was ALWAYS FAITH that saved, even in the O.T.

 

[GodsGrace101]

So stop citing scriptural examples that contradict your assertions?

Are YOU hanging on a cross?
NO.
So what is the point?
Do you think God is not a just God?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Isaiah 46:9-10

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

I can't answer to the above.
You're like @discipler7
I'm slow and don't get your point.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Are YOU hanging on a cross?
NO.
So what is the point?
Do you think God is not a just God?

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.