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Space suits... the "nail" in the coffin?

majj27

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I disagree, but whatever. The end result is the same.

No, it really isn't the same. That's the entire point. Light scattering due to particulate matter is fundamentally different than light blocking due to an opaque object.

Flat earth theory doesn't require stars to be far away - this is only necessary to explain constant star paths in heliocentrism. In fact, they're probably only marginally further than the sun, if further at all.

Then why does the supposed sudden opacity of the atmosphere affect them? After all, they're less bright than the sun, which is why we don't se them during the day.

and oxygen, mostly. As I said, the atmosphere. Depending on the thickness and cloud cover, the sun will be more or less visible on some days than others. This is why on cloudy days, the sun is mostly hidden (water vapour in these cases, which is much denser in clouds than the aforementioned nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere).

Then at what distance does the nitrogen/oxygen mixture became opaque to the sun? Why does said opacity not affect dimmer light from the same distance?

* * *

Alright, here's a question for you. If you're standing at Christchurch and look straight south, you'll also be able to find the star Sigma Octantis in front of you using using the Southern Cross and a pair of halfway decent binoculars. If you're standing at Melbourne and look straight south, you'll also be able to find the star Sigma Octantis in front of you using the Southern Cross and a pair of halfway decent binoculars.

That means two people, looking in two completely different directions, are seeing the same object. How does that work?
 
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Doctor.Sphinx

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No, it really isn't the same. That's the entire point. Light scattering due to particulate matter is fundamentally different than light blocking due to an opaque object.
I haven't seen proof the former is due to light scattering rather than blocking, or if so, that light blocking works significantly differently.

Then why does the supposed sudden opacity of the atmosphere affect them? After all, they're less bright than the sun, which is why we don't se them during the day.
It does affect them. That's why you often can't see stars beyond a certain distance.

Then at what distance does the nitrogen/oxygen mixture became opaque to the sun?
It depends on the thickness of the atmosphere, which varies with pressure/density (and clouds).
Why does said opacity not affect dimmer light from the same distance?
Who said it didn't?

* * *

Alright, here's a question for you. If you're standing at Christchurch and look south, you'll be able to find the star Sigma Octantis using the Southern Cross and a pair of halfway decent binoculars. If you're standing at Melbourne and look south, you'll also be able to find the star Sigma Octantis using the Southern Cross and a pair of halfway decent binoculars.

That means two people, looking in two completely different directions, are seeing the same object. How does that work?
You would need to provide some actual figures for this. I'm fairly sure both would not be looking exactly South (i.e. 180 degrees). Why would you think this wouldn't work on a flat (disc) Earth?
 
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majj27

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You would need to provide some actual figures for this. I'm fairly sure both would not be looking exactly South (i.e. 180 degrees). Why would you think this wouldn't work on a flat (disc) Earth?

I thought I had made that clear. They ARE both looking at 180 degrees (i.e. straight south, due south, directly opposite of north, etc.), that's part of the setup.

Why would they BOTH see Sigma Octantis straight ahead of them? Because guess what. They do. Even though the FEM insists that they are looking in different directions.
 
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lasthero

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Sure. They can't defend their own heliocentric theory.
Or they feel they have better things to do with their time. Again, just because someone doesn't want to spend time debating you doesn't mean they afraid to. That's a silly way of thinking.

The other space agencies were formed to damage control the obvious conspiracy between Russia and the US.

The other space agencies and just about every country on the planet? Again, even ones that are hostile to the United States? Are you suggesting that Russia, the US, and other countries are all under the control of ONE government, despite the fact that they're constantly at odds with each other, working against each other's interests, et cetera? Is that the rabbit hole you're going down?

[

If you are not aware of the solid observations that the FE crowd are presenting... To the point that you are comparing their argument to "undetectable pixies". Then you are obviously arguing against a view that you have not investigated....

I've seen plenty. And every time a flat-earther tries to bring their findings against someone who really knows what they're talking about, somebody who studies this stuff for a living, you know what I see? They fail.

In a parallel observation... we have weather balloon and amateur rockets that have video footage of going well beyond 70,000 feet and, without NASA's favorite partner, a go pro fish eye lens, they repeatedly show absolutely no curve.....Which should be readily apparent at a curve rate of 8 inches per mile squared...from these altitudes.

Okay, two things. First, you have this funny habit of describing things but not showing them. Second, do you not see the hypocrisy, here? You'll dismiss any picture from any source that shows a round-earth as fake, or ignore it because it COULD be faked, but you'll readily accept a picture that you think shows its flat. You don't see your bias, there?

This is the result of simple cognitive dissonance... People are so indoctrinated with the globe, and it is so ingrained in them from such an early age.... that if you tell them that the Bible describes it as an un moving plane with an impenetrable femiment over top... they will obviously look for ways to explain why the bible says what it does.

The problem, of course, being that people knew the Earth was a ball long before the Bible came along, and in cultures that didn't even worship that particular religion. They studied the Earth on their lonesome and discovered that it was round, or at least NOT flat.

Can you please show me any scripture that even hints at a ball, spinning at 1000 miles per hour, orbiting around a sun and all this hurling through space?

I'm not a Christian, so you'll have to pick that particular fight with one of the MANY Christians who have that viewpoint. You're in the right place for that.

Does it not seem odd to you that we have a treaty among 53 countries that has held since 1959...and all it deals with is a place that is too cold to live?
There are treaties for all sorts of things, dude. What's your point?

Do you actually think that all these countries with space programs all figured all the same stuff out on their own, individually?

Just because they followed after the example of other countries doesn't mean they working with those other countries. Whenever one country develops technology, the other countries are obviously going to go to great lengths to do the same, not wanting to be left behind. That's the way countries work. We developed nuclear weaponry, other countries started trying to do the same thing. That doesn't mean we GAVE them the technology. That's part of the thing with the nuclear quagmire with North Korea going on today - we didn't GIVE them nuclear capability, they're developing it on their own.

If you don't know that these scientists could care less

Couldn't. COULDN'T. I let this go the first time, because I assumed it was just a typo, but you using it twice makes think you think that's how it's supposed to be said. COULDN'T CARE LESS. If you COULD care less, than that means you do care, at least a little.

They are all one big happy family and it is Naive to think that any of them would break the code of things that are "too great" for the public to know.

I await your evidence that every space agency is working in tandem and under one authority, even the ones in countries that are openly hostile to just about everyone else, like North Korea.

There have been recorded Lunar Eclipses with the sun visible in the sky on many occasions
This is the part where you should, you know, actually SHOW that. Along with an explanation of why you accept that video footage, despite claiming how you can't accept any other video footage.

Oh, and explain to me how we can know when a lunar eclipse is going to happen, exactly how long its going to last, and even when its going to do the very thing that you're describing if it's not happening the way you think it does.

Explain how we not only know when a solar eclipse will occur, but explain where you'll be able to see it and exactly how long it will last.

Oh, and explain how we can predict when, where, and how you'll be able to view comets, even ones that only show up every thousand or so years, or ones that only pass by once.

Explain how a Moon that's, according to you, generating its own light, can cast a shadow on the Earth.

All that would be nice.
 
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majj27

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I haven't seen proof the former is due to light scattering rather than blocking, or if so, that light blocking works significantly differently.

It does affect them. That's why you often can't see stars beyond a certain distance.

It depends on the thickness of the atmosphere, which varies with pressure/density (and clouds).

Who said it didn't?

You aren't seeing the problem here. I'm too busy today to run numbers, but what this model requires is that at some point, some distance, the atmosphere becomes opaque. Completely so. Opaque to visual light, infrared, radar, radio waves, everything.

Not only that, but it does so in a very, very short amount of distance. It's kind of like a wall, honestly. How does that happen? What properties of the atmosphere turn it from transparent to opaque in such a short distance? It can't just be "Well, it obviously does", because it's not obvious THAT it does unless you assume that the Opacity Boundary exists beforehand. It's currently an unsupported assumption with no explanation.

And if it isn't a sudden opaque wall, then it has to be a ratio of opacity vs. distance. So dim things like stars should wink out of view much sooner than the bright sun. This is counter to actual observation, where stars have been observed for centuries to maintain their luminosity regardless of their altitude.
 
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majj27

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Just in case you were wondering...

The two space agencies are clearly in conspiracy together. The other space agencies were formed to damage control the obvious conspiracy between Russia and the US.

...and thus, Conspiracy Theory.
 
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Aldebaran

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I haven't seen proof the former is due to light scattering rather than blocking, or if so, that light blocking works significantly differently.

If you want proof, all you have to do is go outside an hour or so before sunrise and watch the stars slowly fade from view as the sun's light lights up the atmosphere. If you have a telescope, keep it aimed at a bright star and you'll be able to see it even after you can't see it with your naked eyes. Even better, if Venus is in the sky before sunrise, keep your scope aimed at it and you'll notice that you can still see it even after the sun appears over the horizon. The moon is obviously even more visible during the day.
 
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JacksBratt

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Or they feel they have better things to do with their time. Again, just because someone doesn't want to spend time debating you doesn't mean they afraid to. That's a silly way of thinking.
Not talking about yourself, personally, but in general events that I have viewed to occur...
It seems to me that if you are going to insult people for their view, which happens to all people who mention that they accept the FE view and present evidence that they feel supports it.... that you should at least give them the stage to argue, formerly, that your insults are without merit.



The other space agencies and just about every country on the planet? Again, even ones that are hostile to the United States? Are you suggesting that Russia, the US, and other countries are all under the control of ONE government, despite the fact that they're constantly at odds with each other, working against each other's interests, et cetera? Is that the rabbit hole you're going down?

No, they are not under one government... Well not yet.. but that's another topic all together..
They are not under one government... they are all under one common agenda.

The US and most of the free world were at war with Germany in the second world war... who is the head or was the head of NASA..... any guesses..... It was a German who was working directly for the German war effort...

Funny... they US was fine to take him on board to help in their efforts to get to "space".

There are no borders or political boundaries when the world of science and development get rolling.


I've seen plenty. And every time a flat-earther tries to bring their findings against someone who really knows what they're talking about, somebody who studies this stuff for a living, you know what I see? They fail.

Well, I could believe that, if someone who "really knows what their talking about" would actually accept to take part in a formal debate.....

Otherwise your argument is just hearsay.
 
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JacksBratt

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Okay, two things. First, you have this funny habit of describing things but not showing them. Second, do you not see the hypocrisy, here? You'll dismiss any picture from any source that shows a round-earth as fake, or ignore it because it COULD be faked, but you'll readily accept a picture that you think shows its flat. You don't see your bias, there?
Well, you say that you have seen plenty. Well, you would have, then, have seen the video's of both camps. In the ones with go pro style fish eye lenses.. as the surface of the earth is viewed in the perimeter of the screen it is either convex or concave... to believe this would mean that the earths surface is either a ball, or a concave type surface. All the while, when the surface passes the center of the screen.. it looks flat... or... almost flat. Could be a curve of a much much larger ball though.

The ones which use a standard style lens will show a flat looking surface no matter where it is on the screen...

Comparatibly, NASA always uses a fish eye lens and always shows the same curve at high altitudes, low orbit or... even on the ground or low altitudes.

I can see how easy it is to fake a curve...

How would you fake a flat surface?



The problem, of course, being that people knew the Earth was a ball long before the Bible came along, and in cultures that didn't even worship that particular religion. They studied the Earth on their lonesome and discovered that it was round, or at least NOT flat.

Until the FE erupted on the internet and I even started to hear about it... which was much later... everyone thought that Columbus was sailing to a new world and people were afraid that he would sail off the edge..

The more and more I hear... the later and later in history, I am told, that people knew that the earth was a ball...
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "long before the bible came alone" as to mean before biblical times or before the KJV was put together...

Either way, it is my understanding that the FE was a pretty common belief until about 500 or 600 years ago.


I'm not a Christian, so you'll have to pick that particular fight with one of the MANY Christians who have that viewpoint. You're in the right place for that.

Fair enough.


There are treaties for all sorts of things, dude. What's your point?
Lost my train of thought when typing that point....
Ya.. how many treaties, with that many countries of that varied of ideals and government types, have lasted that long without being challenged, amended, fought over, broken breached or ignored?



Just because they followed after the example of other countries doesn't mean they working with those other countries. Whenever one country develops technology, the other countries are obviously going to go to great lengths to do the same, not wanting to be left behind. That's the way countries work. We developed nuclear weaponry, other countries started trying to do the same thing. That doesn't mean we GAVE them the technology. That's part of the thing with the nuclear quagmire with North Korea going on today - we didn't GIVE them nuclear capability, they're developing it on their own.

I'm pretty sure that it is no coincidence that all the space agencies are at about the same pace, using similar technology and doing similar things...

You don't like it but it is a "conspiracy" between the governments.. They are conspiring to do things and not be totally truthful.

To say that these ultra intelligent agencies of different parts of the world do not conspire to trade intelligence... to support an agenda... is, IMO naive.



Couldn't. COULDN'T. I let this go the first time, because I assumed it was just a typo, but you using it twice makes think you think that's how it's supposed to be said. COULDN'T CARE LESS. If you COULD care less, than that means you do care, at least a little.

LOL... are saying you have never heard this said both ways and understood to mean the same thing?
My work colleges have often joked about stuff like this that is used in the English language...
Have you ever noticed how many times people say "Ya, no........" then continue to respond?

Seriously.. do I lose part marks for that... Tell me you didn't know what I meant.



I await your evidence that every space agency is working in tandem and under one authority, even the ones in countries that are openly hostile to just about everyone else, like North Korea.

North Korea? seriously.... let me know when they do anything more than launch a missile up into the air. They are not in the same league as China, Russia and the US as far as going to "space".


This is the part where you should, you know, actually SHOW that. Along with an explanation of why you accept that video footage, despite claiming how you can't accept any other video footage.

Oh, and explain to me how we can know when a lunar eclipse is going to happen, exactly how long its going to last, and even when its going to do the very thing that you're describing if it's not happening the way you think it does.

Explain how we not only know when a solar eclipse will occur, but explain where you'll be able to see it and exactly how long it will last.

Oh, and explain how we can predict when, where, and how you'll be able to view comets, even ones that only show up every thousand or so years, or ones that only pass by once.

I have no idea how they do that. I just have it heard many people explain that this is very possible in either model.

Explain how a Moon that's, according to you, generating its own light, can cast a shadow on the Earth.

Any solid object can cast a shadow. The moon is never full when it is casting it's shadow... so... it is just a solid mass passing in front of the sun and blocking the sun's light.
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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The US and most of the free world were at war with Germany in the second world war... who is the head or was the head of NASA..... any guesses..... It was a German who was working directly for the German war effort...

Funny... they US was fine to take him on board to help in their efforts to get to "space".

Firstly - Werner von Braun (I assume you're talking about him) was never "head" of NASA. He was employed by them, and he rose to a senior position, but he never managed the agency.

Furthermore, that was only AFTER Sputnik was launched. Again, people forget that the USSR beat America into every space "first" apart from the moon landing. and yet one party never bothered to call out the other on the flat earth conspiracy.
 
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JacksBratt

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Firstly - Werner von Braun (I assume you're talking about him) was never "head" of NASA. He was employed by them, and he rose to a senior position, but he never managed the agency.

Furthermore, that was only AFTER Sputnik was launched. Again, people forget that the USSR beat America into every space "first" apart from the moon landing. and yet one party never bothered to call out the other on the flat earth conspiracy.
Von Braun was the head of the rocket program and was the lynch pin in it's success.

Are you forgetting that the US and Russia were allies in WW2?
 
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RDKirk

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Von Braun was the head of the rocket program and was the lynch pin in it's success.

Are you forgetting that the US and Russia were allies in WW2?

What has that to do with whether space suits work?
 
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majj27

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What has that to do with whether space suits work?

150402093929-zero-percent-780x439.jpg
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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Von Braun was the head of the rocket program and was the lynch pin in it's success.

But not the "head of NASA" as you originally posted.

Are you forgetting that the US and Russia were allies in WW2?

Are you forgetting that they almost went to war multiple times in the next two decades?
 
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majj27

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Are you forgetting that they almost went to war multiple times in the next two decades?

I'm sure that was just cover for the conspiracy. Not that this is a Conspiracy Theory or anything.
 
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JacksBratt

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But not the "head of NASA" as you originally posted.



Are you forgetting that they almost went to war multiple times in the next two decades?
Sorry, you are right, he was not the head of NASA, Just one of the key figures in it's success. And, arguably a war criminal.

As for Russia and us..... "almost" is the key word.

The Wright brothers were arguably the first to attain flight.... yet.... by WW1... how many countries were able to fly?

You don't think that scientists could care less about borders?
 
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Aldebaran

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Sorry, you are right, he was not the head of NASA, Just one of the key figures in it's success. And, arguably a war criminal.

As for Russia and us..... "almost" is the key word.

Hardly matters. Technically, we were at war (with a nuclear threat that could have ended all civilization, no less) indicates that there was no incentive to keep secrets together.

The Wright brothers were arguably the first to attain flight.... yet.... by WW1... how many countries were able to fly?

You don't think that scientists could care less about borders?

Which is even stronger rebuttal to the idea that the earth is flat and that the idea could be kept hidden from the general public, especially as civilian aircraft could begin flying faster and higher and over longer distances.
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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As for Russia and us..... "almost" is the key word.

Wait....are you saying that the entire cold war was a conspiracy?

The Wright brothers were arguably the first to attain flight.... yet.... by WW1... how many countries were able to fly?

You don't think that scientists could care less about borders?

So in other words, keeping something secret in the face of global information exchange is really difficult. Kind of like how hard it would be for millions of people to stay silent if the Earth was flat?
 
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