Is Slavery Moral?

[cvanwey]

There are thousands of books inspired by other minds. There is nothing controversial about suggesting this book was inspired by another mind, what you find controversial is that God exists, which is why I wouldn't accept your suddenly acquired Theism.

Islam is a monotheistic religion derived from the OT

Human minds yes... This is 'believable', because we at least know human minds exist.

And If I already believed in Yahweh, I would still have the EXACT SAME QUESTION.

Can you please demonstrate Yahweh inspired Exodus and Leviticus, and not mere humans? Because whether I believe in a God or not, has no relevance to this question.

 

[Sanoy]

Human minds yes... This is 'believable', because we at least know human minds exist.

And If I already believed in Yahweh, I would still have the EXACT SAME QUESTION.

Can you please demonstrate Yahweh inspired Exodus and Leviticus, and not mere humans? Because whether I believe in a God or not, has no relevance to this question.

How do you know other human minds exist? (There is a point to this question) Think really hard before your answer.

What did Christianity mean to you?

As God is literally in the question you are asking it very much does matter if you believe in Him or not in regards to any synthetic point.

 

[cvanwey]

Again, I didn't quite understand what you were asking me beyond explaining why I think the Bible doesn't make a case for slavery.

I think I understand better now, given your previous post. I'm not trying to be intellectually dishonest. I didn't really understand what you were asking for.

I state humans wrote many verses, stating they came from God. I state this because most believe in God. A good way to get people to follow laws, is to invoke an 'objective authority'. The authors state "God inspired it." This way, they can invoke their laws with 'objective truth' behind it.

This poses many possible conclusions, even as a believer...

1) If God did not inspire every verse, how does one select which verses were inspired, and which ones were not?

2) If one concludes all verses are God inspired, and yet many humans disagree with slavery, this means many do not inherently agree with God's moral character; and are to instead follow commands.

3) I say the Bible was all written by men, with a limited understanding to all conclusions, at the time in which it was written.

It took me 40 years to reach this conclusion.....

 

[cvanwey]

How do you know other human minds exist? (There is a point to this question) Think really hard before your answer.

What did Christianity mean to you?

As God is literally in the question you are asking it very much does matter if you believe in Him or not in regards to any synthetic point.

We live in a shared reality. My subjective conclusions are directly in proportion to the amount of evidence provided to me. I've seemingly been in direct contact with hundreds/thousands of humans. I've seemingly been in contact with zero Gods.

Thanks

 

[Sanoy]

We live in a shared reality. My subjective conclusions are directly in proportion to the amount of evidence provided to me. I've seemingly been in direct contact with hundreds/thousands of humans. I've seemingly been in contact with zero Gods.

Thanks

Seemingly been in contact with other minds? So you can't prove that? Why do you think that is? I'd like to hear that in your own words. I assure you it wasn't in direct contact, but remote contact.

I have seemingly not been in contact with Demitrious Tingleberry but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. You said you were a Christian once, so you never believed you were in contact with another mind? Or did you come to believe that contact was false.

 

[devolved]

This poses many possible conclusions, even as a believer...

1) If God did not inspire every verse, how does one select which verses were inspired, and which ones were not?

2) If one concludes all verses are God inspired, and yet many humans disagree with slavery, this means many do not inherently agree with God's moral character; and are to instead follow commands.

3) I say the Bible was all written by men, with a limited understanding to all conclusions, at the time in which it was written.

I think the honest answer would be ... we don't know, and I don't know how any given individual can know that.

The claim that God inspired Bible is a subjective claim, obviously, because we have a long history of human disagreement on what would be "inspired" and what is uninspired.

Marin Luther, for example, ripped out some books from his Bible. Thomas Jefferson took the scissors and cut quite a bit.

I don't think that any individual subjective opinion, or even a consensus of opinion can resolve this issue, but it's a bit besides the point, because you seem to think that Christianity is a static concept outlined as words hammered in stone in some ancient book. That's not what it is. That would be something I call Biblianity, or Biblialotry... a worship of Bible as a "special magical book" that will tell you everything what's right and wrong about life.

That's not what it is likely is, at least not from what or how I understand it.

So, the above is your analytic approach to what it is, and it's typical to any reductionist thought. How can Bible be right, when it's wrong?

Well, the minister/chaplain in the scene above... "River you don't fix the Bible... you let it fix you". And the context of that in the show is the River herself is pretty screwed up. She doesn't understand what reality is. She was a mind-controlled slave turned into a weapon. But, the girl's a genius.

Thus we have a two opposing viewpoints here.

River expects the overarching truth of the universe to make logical sense, and the Bible doesn't do that no matter how you look at it. Book (the guy in the scene) is willing to overlook that because it gives him hope and makes him a better person "you don't fix faith, it fixes you".

Hence, in the context of what you are asking what Bible is... it's not there to give you specifics. It's there to frame the ideals against you can develop PERSONAL SPECIFICS that would be contextualized in these ideals.

You are asking me.... is this verse inspired by God? I have no clue, but I believe that if you read and absorb the entirety of meaning (and not the isolated verse here and there), it formulates and encodes a network of concepts that help us to keep going in a world in a way that has some meaning and hope.

That's really all I can say about it. It may be not satisfactory answer that you are looking for, but I don't have answers in that regard. I can barely communicate meaning, hoping that it doesn't get lost during re-interpretation process.

It's something that you get to look, analyze and decide for yourself. If you already concluded that Bible is a work of men, and is not an accurate portrayal of God... why are you hanging around on a Christian forum? All you'd find is arguments in favor of that idea, given the various models of reality that people hold.

 

[cvanwey]

Seemingly been in contact with other minds?

Nope, my prior post states 'I've seemingly been in direct contact with hundreds/thousands of humans.' You are changing my words.

So you can't prove that? Why do you think that is? I'd like to hear that in your own words. I assure you it wasn't in direct contact, but remote contact.

I have seemingly not been in contact with Demitrious Tingleberry but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. You said you were a Christian once, so you never believed you were in contact with another mind? Or did you come to believe that contact was false.

I kinda already knew where this was going.... :/ You are changing my words, and then posing doubt to anything and everything, while ignoring what I said. Now who is 'playing internet games?'

If you wish to engage in Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25:44-46, and the many observations made in the prior posts, great. If not, I'll just watch Sye Ten Bruggencate debates on my own.

Thnx though..

 

[devolved]

I say the Bible was all written by men, with a limited understanding to all conclusions, at the time in which it was written.

Lastly, of course the Bible is incomplete view of reality. It's framed and narrated again the background of people for whom a TV would be a work of demonic magic, and a wheelbarrow would be a form of an emerging tech , at least it would be fairly easy to convince them that it was.

I'm certainly not taking a health advice from these guys.

But you seem to think that the Bible is the case of "if it was good for them, it's good for us". And that's not what it is. OT Biblical narrative is a history of Israel's shortcomings to the ideals that they aspired to.

So, it's a generic history of humanity in that particular "slice of time". That's the reason it's recorded. Not to say "Look how great these people were ... do as them". It was recorded to remind us that all of us have inherent limits to our contextual understanding of reality, and that without some ideals that transcend our immediate understanding... we are not going to do too well.

So, generically-speaking, the hope that Bible provides is the hope that we individually able to transcend out human limitation of "cultural presents", and adopt different set of ideals that end up changing the world for better.

That's the "modern-speak" version of Christian message.

And that's what we as Christians end up focusing on... transcended ideals that were revolutionary at that time, and ended up changing the history of our civilization as we know it.

 

[Sanoy]

Nope, my prior post states 'I've seemingly been in direct contact with hundreds/thousands of humans.' You are changing my words.



I kinda already knew where this was going.... :/ You are changing my words, and then posing doubt to anything and everything, while ignoring what I said. Now who is 'playing internet games?'

If you wish to engage in Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25:44-46, and the many observations made in the prior posts, great. If not, I'll just watch Sye Ten Bruggencate debates on my own.

Thnx though..

Okay..sorry for changing your words but I asked you "How do you know other human minds exist? " So it seems you didn't answer my question at all. So how do you know that other human minds exist?

 

[cvanwey]

I don't think that any individual subjective opinion, or even a consensus of opinion can resolve this issue, but it's a bit besides the point, because you seem to think that Christianity is a static concept outlined as words hammered in stone in some ancient book. That's not what it is.

This is where I beg to differ. The following verses seem to conclude that ALL scripture is given from God (especially since the verses I cited are from the OT):

2 Timothy 3:16, Proverbs 30:5, and 2 Peter 1:19-24

That's really all I can say about it. It may be not satisfactory answer that you are looking for, but I don't have answers in that regard. I can barely communicate meaning, hoping that it doesn't get lost during re-interpretation process.

I find it peculiar that God chose the 'word' to spread truth. And yet, here we are still even debating about anything and everything. At the end if the day, it all boils down to faith, which is not reliable. Anyone can use it, for anything.

So when I read verses about slavery, and the many other verses, which do not appear to be God inspired, and thus conclude that no God wrote such a book; further resulting in sever doubt that Yahweh even exists, I then pose a question...

In observance of Mark 16:15-16, do I then deserve hell, because of lack in belief alone? I already know your answer... "Everyone deserves hell, and faith in Christ provides salvation from a deserving hell.' Sorry for the brief straw man...

However, when my limited brain cannot reconcile the existence of Yahweh, and I'm honest in my assessment, this appears to be my demise, if true. To 'me', this appears grossly unjust, and undeserving. But again, you can say, we all deserve it...

So again, Exodus and Leviticus are just the beginning catalysts, as to why I view the Bible as a man written book, with no inspiration forthcoming. If I"m wrong, I'm furnace fuel.

It's something that you get to look, analyze and decide for yourself. If you already concluded that Bible is a work of men, and is not an accurate portrayal of God... why are you hanging around on a Christian forum? All you'd find is arguments in favor of that idea, given the various models of reality that people hold.

The same reason you are conversing with me now..... I suspect

Peace

 

[cvanwey]

Okay..sorry for changing your words but I asked you "How do you know other human minds exist? " So it seems you didn't answer my question at all. So how do you know that other human minds exist?

How is this line of questioning even remotely close to my OP. I'm sorry, but your imposed line of questioning is going to get neither of us, no where. If you want productivity, take a page from 'devolve's' book

Peace

 

[cvanwey]

Lastly, of course the Bible is incomplete view of reality. It's framed and narrated again the background of people for whom a TV would be a work of demonic magic, and a wheelbarrow would be a form of an emerging tech , at least it would be fairly easy to convince them that it was.

I'm certainly not taking a health advice from these guys.

But you seem to think that the Bible is the case of "if it was good for them, it's good for us". And that's not what it is. OT Biblical narrative is a history of Israel's shortcomings to the ideals that they aspired to.

So, it's a generic history of humanity in that particular "slice of time". That's the reason it's recorded. Not to say "Look how great these people were ... do as them". It was recorded to remind us that all of us have inherent limits to our contextual understanding of reality, and that without some ideals that transcend our immediate understanding... we are not going to do too well.

So, generically-speaking, the hope that Bible provides is the hope that we individually able to transcend out human limitation of "cultural presents", and adopt different set of ideals that end up changing the world for better.

That's the "modern-speak" version of Christian message.

And that's what we as Christians end up focusing on... transcended ideals that were revolutionary at that time, and ended up changing the history of our civilization as we know it.

Though I agree with much of what you are saying...

Was 'God' the author for Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25:44-46? (yes) or (no)?

I'm asking you specifically. And I also would not mind a very brief reason for your (yes) or (no) answer.

Thankx!

 

[Sanoy]

How is this line of questioning even remotely close to my OP. I'm sorry, but your imposed line of questioning is going to get neither of us, no where. If you want productivity, take a page from 'devolve's' book

Peace

You are asking me about inspiration from another mind. So the question I asked you is quite relevant despite your reluctance to answer it. How do you know other human minds exist?

What did Christianity mean to you?

 

[cvanwey]

You are asking me about inspiration from another mind. So the question I asked you is quite relevant despite your reluctance to answer it. How do you know other human minds exist?

What did Christianity mean to you?

I will give you the answer you are desperately eluding to...

"Without God, you cannot really ever know anything at all."

 

[Sanoy]

I will give you the answer you are desperately eluding to...

"Without God, you cannot really ever know anything at all."

That is not where I was going. The question refers to something ostensive, so we need a mutual ostensive sense.

 

[cvanwey]

I wasn't going there actually. The question refers to something ostensive, so we need an ostensive sense.

Since you are the one imposing the word 'mind', I first need to know what your definition of 'mind' means?

On the other hand, I used the word humans. And I tend to relate to the applied definitions of human, as per the following:

human - relating to or characteristic of people or human beings. A human being, especially a person as distinguished from an animal or (in science fiction) an alien.

 

[Sanoy]

Since you are the one imposing the word 'mind', I first need to know what your definition of 'mind' means?

On the other hand, I used the word humans. And I tend to relate to the applied definitions of human, as per the following:

human - relating to or characteristic of people or human beings. A human being, especially a person as distinguished from an animal or (in science fiction) an alien.

Mind, that thing that you are using that apprehends my existence, and is having intentional states about my statements. I think you know the distinction between the word human and mind.

 

[cvanwey]

Mind, that thing that you are using that apprehends my existence, and is having intentional states about my statements. Do you really not see a distinction between the word human and mind?

It depend on how you define mind?.?.?.?.?.?.?.?.?.? The beauty of language is the many meanings one can apply to the very same word

'The mind is a set of cognitive faculties including consciousness, perception, thinking, judgement, language and memory. It is usually defined as the faculty of an entity's thoughts and consciousness'

(or)

'the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought.'

(or)

'a person's intellect'

(or)

'the element or complex of elements in an individual that feels, perceives, thinks, wills, and especially reasons.'

**************

You are under the perception, I presume, that consciousness is provided by God, and that material in motion would not produce organized thought....

And I can even get that....

I just wish you would get to your point, so you can finally answer my OP with sincerity and honesty.

Which is, is slavery moral? Because accordingly to the objective Bible, it is...

 

[Sanoy]

It depend on how you define mind?.?.?.?.?.?.?.?.?.? The beauty of language is the many meanings one can apply to the very same word

'The mind is a set of cognitive faculties including consciousness, perception, thinking, judgement, language and memory. It is usually defined as the faculty of an entity's thoughts and consciousness'

(or)

'the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought.'

(or)

'a person's intellect'

(or)

'the element or complex of elements in an individual that feels, perceives, thinks, wills, and especially reasons.'

**************

You are under the perception, I presume, that consciousness is provided by God, and that material in motion would not produce organized thought....

And I can even get that....

I just wish you would get to your point, so you can finally answer my OP with sincerity and honesty.

Which is, is slavery moral? Because accordingly to the objective Bible, it is...

If your intent is to obfuscate and stall this inquiry then just let me know and we can stop it all together. I certainly don't want to waste my time dealing with that kind of thing, do you want to waste your time producing it?

 

[cvanwey]

If your intent is to obfuscate and stall this inquiry then just let me know and we can stop it all together. I certainly don't want to waste my time dealing with that kind of thing, do you want to waste your time producing it?

Please answer the question. Is slavery moral or not? The Bible states yes, because whatever God commands or states in the Bible, is considered moral. The Bible never instructs not to own slaves. Therefore, according to the objective Bible, slavery is then concluded moral, the beating of slaves is considered moral, as opposed to immoral.

If you do not want to address this very axiomatic assertion, then yes, we can both move on...

I asked, many responses ago, to demonstrate that anything other than humans wrote the Bible. I'm too old to play games. Just give your final answer. I 'presume' I'm smart enough to read between the lines, as to the reasoning for your answer.

Is slavery moral?
How do you know God inspired the Bible, when every other book on the planet was not?

Thnx